I wanna be a CRUSADER

[B. Fulton]

On the Irish theme, Clontarf Castle in Dublin was held by the Templars, then the Hospitallers (after the Templars were gone) for a very long time (decades at least).

Being a Irish Templar is entirely possible.

I stayed at the Clontarf (now a hotel which wraps around the old keep or maybe one of the towers) a couple weeks ago and read the little infosheet.

[Starn]

I thought I'd throw this out here as another example of a simple 3rd crusade faceplate helm. I'm making it at the moment (It's the first helm I've made actually) and it's not quite finished but it's getting there. I do steel weapon combat/LHE re-enactment both here in Australia and in the UK so I'm fortunate that I don't have to worry about making the helm SCA legal. I usually do 1066 era but I've started creating a new set of kit which this helm and a kettle helm I've also got will belong too.

As a side note I've been wondering how authentic surcoats actually are in europe during this period? Most of the effigies I've seen from around this time in surcoats are connected to the holy orders (William Marshal for example), and I'm sure we're all aware that the main reason surcoats where created was to keep the Anatolian sun off of crusader maille, they didn't even put heraldry on them yet, that came in the 1300's, but what about those blokes that never left europe? I've seen many of the examples of knights seals and artwork from the time that show knights without it. The seals of Henry II, Richard and John all show them without surcoats as do the illustrations I've seen of the killing of Thomas Becket just to name a couple of pieces, so what I guess I'm asking is were surcoats only fashionable when actually on crusade until the late 1200's?

[Starn]

Damn the photo didn't load... Take 2!

[Calder]

Damn the photo didn't load... Take 2!

I've been trying to create an SCA legal version of this helm, and have had a lot of trouble actually finding one that didnt have the bulbous faceplate.
Right or wrong, I was always under the impression the more bulbous faceplate came in later in the 11th century, say third crusade....I found Otto willing to give it a try, and add a lower backplate and such, but I was always under the impression this was considered a type of "transitional helm." Is this as late as the third crusade or was it seen as early as the end of the first, beginning of the second (late 1000's to early 1100's)?
I love the lightweight utilitarian look to it...less ornamental but it looks like something that would really be used in service...

[Egfroth]

Calder, the earliest faceplates seem to have turned up about the late 12th century (from about 1190 perhaps? - it's hard to date some pictures more accurately than within one or two decades), but only seem to come into their own about 1210. See in particular the transition between open face and 'faceplate" helmets in the "Silver Shrine of Charlemagne" here and here, and particularly here. Though these ones have a little shaping at the front of the face, it's pretty minor.

It has to be said that the evidence is against faceplate helmets in the Third Crusade which ran from 1189 to 1192 - both Peter of Eboli's Liber ad Honorem Augusti (from about 1195) and the Hortus Deliciarum (late 12th century) don't show them at all.

You should also look at the thread here, but watch the dates on the effigies and pics - some date to quite early in the 12th century, so aren't appropriate to your time-span. Note that the faceplate on the Vieux Pouzages knight in that thread is almost totally flat.

Starn, surcoats start appearing in European representations from perhaps as early as 1170. They may have started in the holy Land, but seem to have transferred to Europe fairly quickly. However, there were still plenty of knights who didn't wear them considerably later, if contemporary pictures are anything to go by.

[Calder]

Calder, the earliest faceplates seem to have turned up about the late 12th century (from about 1190 perhaps? - it's hard to date some pictures more accurately than within one or two decades), but only seem to come into their own about 1210. See in particular the transition between open face and 'faceplate" helmets in the "Silver Shrine of Charlemagne" here and here, and particularly here. Though these ones have a little shaping at the front of the face, it's pretty minor.

Wow...fantastic info, thank you Egfroth! I noticed the imagery of the mounted soldier at the far left of the third image, and yes, I see the minor shaping, more what I was going for, but I was not aware that the faceplate came so late, as I thought it was sort of a transitional phase between the open face and the great helm, putting it fairly early but perhaps it is later than I expected. Out of morbid curiosity, is the bulbous faceplate design (see Icerfalcon's Crusader Pot Helm, Otto's, Windrose, etc...) just an alternate design that formed about the same time period, or is this later as well?

[Egfroth]

Calder, you're right. The faceplate seems to be a transitional phase between open face and barrel helms. I was in the same boat as you - I used to think faceplates were appropriate for the Third Crusade, but looking at contemporary pictures, it's evident that that they were very uncommon, if not completely unknown, at the time. They don't seem to have come in until about the first decade of the 13th century, and by about 1250 they'd developed into the full barrel helm.

The bulbous face seems to have been contemporary with the other "faceplate" helmets, not a later development.

[Calder]

Fantastic to know actually, thanks. Most everything I have seen and researched for the first to second crusades seems to have always shown at the very least, the standard classic norman conical or nasal style helm.

[Egfroth]

That would be right - the First Crusade was from 1096-1099, and the Second was from 1147-49, so conical helms with nasals would have been the style in use at the time. See the Bayeux Tapestry and other near-contemporary records.

The "pot" helm and the "Phrygian" helm, and the "hemispherical" helms seem to have become common in western Europe about the middle of the 12th century or later - they may have been appropriate for the Second Crusade, but almost certainly wouldn't have had faceplates by 1149.

And as the pictures show, even in the Third Crusade they aren't likely to have been common, and may not have even been in use at all.

[Egfroth]

Another type of face protection dating to the late 12th century, at least in France and Germany, is the "joière" helmet - this was discussed earlier on the AA, but I can't find the reference. But the original information is here.

I've (fairly freely) translated the text of the article below:

[quote]"Round" Bell helmet or “hanepierâ€

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I have also recently seen evidence of kettle helms, right at the end of the 1st Crusade. A cathedral in Ausburg has a window with three people in kettle-helms, dated to right around 1100.

[Egfroth]

That's VERY interesting. The earliest kettle-helm I know of dates to about 1195.

Do you have pics?

[Haldan]

I have also recently seen evidence of kettle helms, right at the end of the 1st Crusade. A cathedral in Ausburg has a window with three people in kettle-helms, dated to right around 1100.

Augsburg? That's on my list of places to go. Do you know which Cathedral?

Haldan - have camera, will travel.....

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

No, not sure which cathedral (I was doing good to remember the city). It was in a book a friend of mine had, and I also thought it was very interesting, as it has a far later look than the embellished ones I think of which are that early (Goliath in the Mac Bible). This looks to be more like the ones Adam Berry makes (for lack of a better description), more of a wider Norman on the top, with a very slanted brim. I want to say it is Abraham, Issac and Jacob in the windows. She seemed to think it was indicative of the pointy hat phenomenon (supposedly) used to delineate Jews, but it lacked the ball shape on the point, as well as being a very distinctive silvery gray color. I am planning on bringing my camera the next time we go over, as well as getting some citation info at least. I may see if I can borrow the book to scan the picture as well.

[Calder]

On this same first-second crusader note...does anyone have any info on the timeline for the use of Winingas? I think we can assume if soemone is portraying a first crusade Anglo-Norman they are pretty common, unless they went out within those 30 years after the Battle of Hastings, but did they exist much beyond that into the 12th century? I have had little or no luck finding info on these, but I may just be looking in the wrong place....

[Lucas]

I'm trying to put together my first crusafer kit as well. I already have the helm (By James Gillespie, pictured below.) Its a 13th cen transitional sugarloaf. What type of tunics/legwear would be period for this?

[audax]

Look in the Maciejowski Bible. You can find images from it online. you'll see all sorts of legwear, surcotes and tunics in it.

[B. Amos]

Look in the Maciejowski Bible. You can find images from it online. you'll see all sorts of legwear, surcotes and tunics in it.

I think the Manessa Codex would be more in line with this style of helm. though very similar in style at first glance, the Manessa Codex has sevral exaples of hard limb and joint protection as well as different styles of clothing such as the very long surcoats in the Manessa as compaired to the much shorter ones in the Maciejowski

[Lucas]

Thanks Amos! That definitely helped. Now I'm giving the surcoat-maker some real work. How do you like fighting in your mail? Advantages/disadvantages?

Lucas
Ponte Alto

[es02]

Maybe we should sperate this into Templar, Hospitaler, Tutonic?

Or by crusade? 1st 2nd 3rd???

Disclaimer: I come at this from a NON-SCA standpoint. I will NOT make suggestions for rattan, etc. modifications to kit. This is aimed at European fighters. This is not definitive

"A traditional numbering scheme for the crusades totals nine during the 11th to 13th centuries. This division is arbitrary and excludes many important expeditions, among them those of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. In reality, the crusades continued until the end of the 17th century, the crusade of Lepanto occurring in 1571, that of Hungary in 1664, and the crusade to Candia in 1669.[13] The Knights Hospitaller continued to crusade in the Mediterranean Sea around Malta until their defeat by Napoleon in 1798. There were frequent "minor" Crusades throughout this period, not only in Palestine but also in the Iberian Peninsula and central Europe, against Muslims and also Christian heretics and personal enemies of the Papacy or other powerful monarchs." - Wikipedia

First Crusade 1095-1099
Round or kit shields
hauberks, chausses[possibly] and mittens
nasalhelm
single handers, lances, polehammers, axes, spears and maces
surcoats

Siege of Jerusalem 1099


Crusade of 1101
Kettle hats start appearing

Second Crusade 1147–1149
Coat of plates starting to make an appearance? Early Greathelms?

Third Crusade 1187–1192
Maille hauberk, full sleeves with integral mittens and coif,
maille chausses,
Barrel helm,"Bell helms"

A well armed man would have a mail hauberk with integral coif and mufflers, chausses and a helmet or possibly an early helm. The pot helm appears frequently in german art of the period (What we tend to call the salt shaker style helm). But the helmet worn could have been a round topped nasal or a conical nasal as well. Kettle hats were also popular, particularly with the infantry. The Surcoat was popular and often hides any additional body defence. There are some hints from around the time period. Surcoats drawn with shoulders that stick out and up as if there were something bulky underneath, and an effigy in the temple church, London (iirc) that shows a buckled curie under the surcoat. Although I believe that is several decades post third crusade.
Shields were flat topped kites or long heaters. -Thaddeus

Fourth Crusade 1202–1204


Albigensian Crusade 1209
Pothelm w/faceplate?

Children's Crusade 1212 - Possibly ficticious
???

Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
Pothelm w/faceplate

Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
Pothelm w/faceplate

Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
Barrel Helms

Eighth Crusade 1270
Sugarloaf, greathelm, transitional harness beginning to appear? Poleweapons begin to be more prevalent

Ninth Crusade 1271–1272


Northern Crusades (Baltic and Germany) 12th-16thC
-Wendish Crusade 1147
-Livonian Crusade 1198-1290
-Prussian Crusade 1222-1223


Crusade against the Tatars
-1st 1259
-2nd 1389
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.
-3rd 1398 (continuation of 2nd?)
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.

Crusades in the Balkans
-Crusade of Nicopolis (1396)
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.
-Crusade of Varna (1444)
Full 15thC Plate
-Crusade of 1456
Full 15thC Plate

Aragonese Crusade 1284-1285
Sugarloaf

Alexandrian Crusade 1365
Partial 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.

Hussite Crusade 1420-1434
Full 15thC Plate

Swedish Crusades
-1st 1155
-2nd 1249
-3rd 1243


Obviously there is a lot missing here so feel free to add to this and I will update as and when I am able.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I am curious what makes you date mail chausses to the first crusade, even under possibly. I was not aware of any extant artwork from that early depicting them. I would also show flat topped kites coming in slightly earlier, and making a distinction for the triangular "not-heaters" of the 13th century that are also seen.

[es02]

I am curious what makes you date mail chausses to the first crusade, even under possibly. I was not aware of any extant artwork from that early depicting them. I would also show flat topped kites coming in slightly earlier, and making a distinction for the triangular "not-heaters" of the 13th century that are also seen.

It is my understanding that the Bayeux tapestry is aproximately that period, it shows what look to me like knee length chausses (seperate from the hauberk) and puttees. But I could be misinterpreting it.

[audax]

Look in the Maciejowski Bible. You can find images from it online. you'll see all sorts of legwear, surcotes and tunics in it.

I think the Manessa Codex would be more in line with this style of helm. though very similar in style at first glance, the Manessa Codex has sevral exaples of hard limb and joint protection as well as different styles of clothing such as the very long surcoats in the Manessa as compaired to the much shorter ones in the Maciejowski

MOst of the helms I see in the Manesse codex look more like early greathelms, not pointy sugarloafs. I was just pointing the man at a 13th century document which is the period he said he was interested in.

A couple late 12th-early13th cent Italian documents show sugarloaf types as well.

[B. Amos]

[img]http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... 1/196r.jpg[/img]

[B. Amos]

Look in the Maciejowski Bible. You can find images from it online. you'll see all sorts of legwear, surcotes and tunics in it.

I think the Manessa Codex would be more in line with this style of helm. though very similar in style at first glance, the Manessa Codex has sevral exaples of hard limb and joint protection as well as different styles of clothing such as the very long surcoats in the Manessa as compaired to the much shorter ones in the Maciejowski

MOst of the helms I see in the Manesse codex look more like early greathelms, not pointy sugarloafs. I was just pointing the man at a 13th century document which is the period he said he was interested in.

A couple late 12th-early13th cent Italian documents show sugarloaf types as well.

Sorry Audax, I did not mean to say that you were wrong. The Maciejowski bible is a wonderful resource for 13th century armour. When I saw that helm I immedeatly had the above image come to mind and that is why I suggested the Manessa. to my eye those helms are remarkably simalar.

[B. Amos]

Thanks Amos! That definitely helped. Now I'm giving the surcoat-maker some real work. How do you like fighting in your mail? Advantages/disadvantages?

Lucas
Ponte Alto

I really like fighting in my maille, it use to fit me better when I was 60lbs heavier, but it wore me out quicker, now that I have lost some weight the maille does not fit correctly. Once I hit my target weight I am going to have it resized so that I can wear it on a regular basis again.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Now are we thinking that it actually had a space/rise, such as the one posted above, or is it just the artist magnifying it so we see the "visor" as opposed to a close-helm? The one Lucas posted has a "lip" on the top, that isnt shown very well in the picture. I would personally be concerned about someone having another spot to hit right around my face, with any kind of pointy object (such as the point of a pole-ax)...aka. missed the eyes, caught the gap in the visor, all of a sudden I have your head on a tether.

[Magnus of Red Hammer]

I must say that judging on the combatant on the right, it looks much more like a movable bevor than a visor. I know this isn't quite the time period for it, but it still looks like the "visor" is coming down in front of an existing face plate.

[Saritor]

They should be reinforcing plates that are essentially the bevor, hinged or strapped.

There's a couple more examples here, including the Manesse Codex line drawing: http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/

[Isenbrant Blackaert]

Sorry this is so late, but I'm trying to build a 2nd to 3rd crusade knight templar and I know most of what I need. But the leggings have confounded me. I know from reading Charles Ffolkes' "The Armourer and His Craft" that leggings were laced up the back as well as completely enclosed.

But:

A. All I can find for them are the enclosed tutorials/petterns

B. are they period for those crusades?

[Blaine de Navarre]

All I can find for them are the enclosed tutorials/petterns

Use the same pattern, just leave out a few rows at the back.

are they period for those crusades?

In the Bayeux Tapestry (late 11C), there are mail chausses shown, but very few and only on very high-ranking persons; by the Maciejowski Bible (mid 13C) they are pretty much universal for anyone wearing a hauberk. Based on those and many other sources (lots of them linked to this thread already), they would have been becomming increasingly common over the course of the 12C. My best guess is they were still not very common at the time of the 2nd Crusade (mid 12C) and by the 3rd (late 12C) would have been fairly common but not yet universal for knights and much less common for serjeants.

[GenericUnique]

A. All I can find for them are the enclosed tutorials/petterns

B. are they period for those crusades?

I'm not quite sure when maille chausses phase in (12th century for sure, and if they're in the Bayeux Tapestry, then they're period for some ranks at least), but I've seen a few laced on sets. Generally, what seems to look best is dagging the edges slightly and lacing thonging through the tip rings, in a somewhat corset-like fashion. Tighter has the advantage of less mail slapping about, and just looks more period. Aim to create some bunching/droop/space to move above the knee by finishing one set of lacing just above and then begining a new set below.

As for doing the foot, that could be tricky. You could lace thonging underneath your shoe soles, or attach a sole to the maille.

[GenericUnique]

thanks GenericUnique, but I've decided not to go with a laced set of chausses for one reason, it's difficult to do by myself. Non-laced is easier for the fact that I can just slip them on.

I've decided to have a thong runing below and above the knee as well as at the botton to keep the secured to the leg better.

Again, thanks.

You probably only need the below thong. Since maille's a horribly, heavy thing, it'll naturally move all the slack from the above-knee section downwards. If you're considering a foot (and I can't remember a picture of a chausse from the period without one), you'll appreciate some way to tighten the mail on the ankle- either a laced slit, or a strap or thing.

[William Lee]

Question for all you crusader types.

for Knights of the Order of St. John ie Knights Hospitaller in and around 1200AD what color surcoat would be worn on the field?
red or black?
I'm doing a bit of research into all this and I've come across differing opinions.
any help in clarification would be appreciated.

Aonghaus of Bruce
~East~

None.

The Hospitallers wore the cappa clausa (monastic robe) over their armour until 1248, when the pope authorized wear of a black surcoat. In 1259, the pope authorized use of a red surcoat for knights of the order.

[Donald St. Colin]

No, not foot on my chausses for the simple reason that I'm not that good with maille yet to do one, plus if I fight I want good heavy boots to wear. And I don't think feet would slip over those.

My maille chausses are sew to heavy boots.

Animo et Fide!
Brother Domnall de les Pauperes commilitones Christi templique Salomonis