I wanna be a CRUSADER

[Ernst]

Define (or better yet, post a picture) of a "bucket helmet". Fully enclosed "great helms" post-date the Third Crusade, unless you're a king. I don't think you can find "period appropriate baggy pants", hence my suggestion of a long under-gown covering the knees and thighs.

[Owen Longstrider]

Paul,
It seems you are having a similar problem I had when designing my 3rd Crusade armor. What I have decided upon was a pair of arms consisting of plastic lames riveted to thin leather, and then the plastic is covered in cloth so that when worn under a mail shirt, it would look like the quilted gambeson underneath, along with a steel single-piece elbow cop hinged to it, also covered in cloth. As for the legs, I have decided to cover a pair of knee-high boots in mail and then make a pair of the padded leg armor in the picture, but instead of padding, there will be plastic lames sewn inside, with a single-piece knee cop hinged to it, also covered in cloth so the whole thing looks like the picture. That kind of padded leg armor was (as I understand it) worn over a pair of mail leggings, so the finished product would look as if I am wearing mail leggins with the padding over them, but without the weight of full leggings.

crusader-upper-leg-padding-4 a.jpg (72.81 KiB) Viewed 1399 times

[Ernst]

That kind of padded leg armor was (as I understand it) worn over a pair of mail leggings, so the finished product would look as if I am wearing mail leggins with the padding over them, but without the weight of full leggings.

Gamboissed cuisses were worn over mail chausses, but I don't think there's evidence for them until a decade after the 3rd Crusade.

[Paul de Whitworth]

Thanks Owen, I might kind of copy your design in my leg armor constructions, since I think I want to go with the long gown.

Also, Ernst, to taper the maille could I have a leather strand through the maille and synch it down? It is riveted, and not by me, so readjusting the chainmaille might be a little...tricky.

However...

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54CD56ED

Heres a picture with the Helmet on. (Me happily posing for Facebook. hahaha)

It would be kind of hard for me to ditch the helmet, since I really like the look, I did pay for it, and it protects my noggin really well. (seriously, this helmet stops trainwrecks ) I have been told to ditch the helmet for a more competitive open faced grilled one, but I'm not in it for the competition. I'm in it for the reenactment. And if some guys fought with the great helm on, so shall I.

I think until I can get a different helmet, perhaps a later period would be a better choice.

[Ernst]

Keeping the helmet is fine, if you want to look right for 1275-1300, well out for 1189-1192. It's easier to change persona than helmet. You can cinch the mail, but it doesn't eliminate all the extra weight, or make the elbow work right.

[zammerak]

Hey guys, I was looking to do a 1250 ish persona (Had to keep making it later and later to make my armor work) I have pot helm (pepper shaker) that I have just finished and really don’t want to ditch that, and an armored surcoat (like a coat of plates but longer). What I was thinking about doing is to get a long sleeved mail shirt cut off just under the sleeves (i just want the sleeves for show) and wear that under the COP. I have some elbow cops with an attached leather vambrace which I would wear under the mail. for hands I was going to make low profile black or brown "glove" gauntlets and I may even put mail over them to make a mail mitten. Next I am going to make some sca legal knees and was thinking about wearing mail chausses over them making them "invisible". My goal is to look something like what is depicted in the Morgan Bible but still have SCA legal and safe gear.
Any input is welcomed. I can add pictures of my current kit and pieces if needed (cant right this moment as I am at work )

[Ernst]

Hiding the knees under mail will be difficult, and isn't necessary for 1250. Although the Morgan (Maciejowski) Bible doesn't show them, there is evidence for their use over gamboissed cuisses as early as 1225. Have you considered mail mittens attached to the sleeves worn beneath a basket hilt and half-gauntlet. At least the armor would be right even if the baton isn't.

[zammerak]

I have but I have a deep resentment towards basket hilts (me personally, i dont seem to mind them on other though). I would rather have a great looking stick with some glove looking gauntlets rather than great mits and a basket hilt.

[olliemg]

Have you considered mail mittens attached to the sleeves worn beneath a basket hilt and half-gauntlet. At least the armor would be right even if the baton isn't.

age of craft has mail mittens that id have to assume have plates inside like their standard mittens
http://ageofcraft.com/index.php?route=p ... uct_id=161
maybe that helps?

[Henrik Granlid]

Sharukhan does pretty much the same thing.
http://www.sharukhanmarket.com/chainmail-mittens/

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

I believe I have seen a written reference to cuisses in an account of the 3rd crusade. I'll see if I can re-find it.

[Paladin74]

The Sharukhans ones seem to be the better option; unless the assumption is that strong that age of craft's is also made with hidden armor plating.

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

Bad news, the source on cuisses is suspect, it actually came from Bullfinch's Mythology, and had no citations for how they came up with their version of the exploits of Richard I's crusade.

[Phelippe du Peiregore]

Sharukhan does pretty much the same thing.
http://www.sharukhanmarket.com/chainmail-mittens/

I'm not sure about that thumb design as far as SCA fighting goes :S

Anyone know anyone that used those before / own those?

[NeeSayer]

Am I reading correctly in my research that by the end of the 12th c flat top kites were being used in the holy land? I know that the regular heater hadn't developed yet so I'm trying to figure out a shield shape that still has corners to it but is period correct.

[Ernst]

Plenty of examples on manuscript miniatures. Just do a search from 1175-1200.

[Ernst]

The (probably) late-12th century Seedorf shield of Arnold of Brienz measures 87.3cm (34.4") in length, though the point is broken, and the top appears to have been cut down. Width is 65.8cm (25.9").



From a previous post--

From _The Archaeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry_, Oakeshott, Ewart R. (New York: Dover Publications), 1996; pp.275-276. Originally published by Lutterworth Press, London, 1960.

"There are some well-preserved shields dating about 1190 and 1320 which show clearly how they were made. One is in the Landesmuseum at Zurich; it was found late in the nineteenth century in a disused cupboard in the church at Seedorf, on Lake Lucerne; it bears the arms (azure, a lion Rampant argent) of Arnold von Brienz, who founded the church and monastery of Seedorf in 1179. The church was later dedicated to the Order of the Knights of St. Lazarus. The shield is somewhat damaged, the lower few inches of the point end being broken away and all the straps having perished, though apart from that it is well preserved. It is made of lime-wood covered inside and out with leather, the silver lion being moulded in low relief in Gesso Duro. Much of the silver colouring and the blue of the ground survives.

[NeeSayer]

Ernst, thank you for the response and information. I'm trying to learn the ways of your research-fu but am struggling on it. Seriously though, thank you.

[Ernst]

I think 36" to 42" length should be good for one of these shields. Most of them look deeply curved too. Gerhard has a tutorial on historic techniques here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=167321