XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq)

Peter Lyon · Post by **Peter Lyon** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:22 am

Is this the sort of look you are going for?

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t244 ... 307032.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t244 ... 307031.jpg

(Me last weekend - I have finally sorted most of the details on my harness, which is in the style of an English knight c.1390 - heavily influenced by the Black Prince effigy, with other touches)

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:37 am

That's quite close, Peter, yes, if you're asking me.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.thecompaignyestore.com

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:25 am

"It freaked me out when the HE bascinet came up a whole back, because I need one and would like one from Jeff's hands from the standpoint of keeping the manufacturers down a bit."

Yeah too bad some sumbiach bought it huh

Hehehehehe

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:30 pm

Someone will need rent more than a helmet someday.

I'm happy with the Ashelm Arms bascinet I have, but need a houndskull visor.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.thecompaignyestore.com

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:12 am

Hey Jehan, nice milkchug

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:56 pm

Milk, indeed!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.thecompaignyestore.com

Sigurd Fjalarson · Post by **Sigurd Fjalarson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:48 pm

Jehan, in pic #1 of your arming garments, could you explain how you're legs are pointed? I can't quite make out whats going on there.

Edited to add alot of questions, cuz I like questions.

WHat is your arming doublet(?) made of? Is it normally just the one point mid bicep that you point your arm harness to? Thanks Jehan, you are an inspiration to alot of the people in this game.

Also, anyone have a jupon/ surcote pattern? I gots to get sewing if I'm to make Lillies for my first event.(Hey I can hope

)

Thanks again
Randy

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:12 pm

The cotte I point my arms and spaulders to is made of linen. I sewed the torso panels double thick, turned them inside out, then flat sewed them together with a tight, wide machine stitch. The buttons are pewter, got them from Fettered Cock or Talbot's or some such, I can't remember anymore though I should be able to. You get to a point where you can't remember the complete story of everything you have, and that's when you know you might have enough, or at least things slow down. Hopefully.

The legs are pointed to a vest which has points hanging off the bottom of it. This vest, it must be said, is not shown to be historically accurate, but it the absence of proof of a solution, it is how I git 'er done. It's certainly evocative of something not normally seen.

Yes, the arm is pointed at that one place. Benefit of spring steel harness, it doesn't weigh so much that it requires more. The close fit allows some of the weight to be borne on the arm itself so that single point is not so stressed. In any case, the square through which the points are put is four layers thick, and they were pierced through with an awl, rather than cut to make the holes. I would have sewn the holes for the points open, but found it rather easier to just leave the points in and wash them all together.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.thecompaignyestore.com

Sigurd Fjalarson · Post by **Sigurd Fjalarson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:53 pm

Awesome, thanks Jehan. So If using mild or stainless, more tha one point might be required for the arm harness?

And is your vest in th CDB pattern and thats why its not quite historical?

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:46 pm

I may try to answer this one- Jehan will correct me if I am wrong.

Jehan is using what most reenactors call a pourpoint-a sleeveless vest fitted to hold up the legs. It's a popular solution, and is comercially available from at least two sources, and also works and looks a hell of a lot better than the weight belts many people use, but there is no evidence for men at arms wearing anything like it to suspend armour- later garments pointed the legs directly to the arming cote, and the reconstructions I have seen, particularly Murdock's arming coats made by Klaus and Gmandragora, have supported that this can be done well with cotes cut in the styles of this period. Why wear two layers when one can do it? Of course, it's not that simple, and a big reason for the two garment trend is that if the garments only have to fit right in one place to function, they are each easier to get a functional product, i. e. it's a lot easier to get mobility in the arms in an arming cote if you don't have to worry what the waistline is doing. That is what he is referring to as being ahistorical.

The CdB element that makes for great arm mobility is the grand assiete sleeve- with an exaggerated arm hole and carefully positioned gores, the natural give of the fabric diagonal to the bias allows for extra flexibilty and for the arms to move freely without affecting the waistline. Jehan's garment doesn't seem to be cut this way and so if he pointed his legs to the cote it might not work quite right. I may be wrong as I only have the pictures to go on.

For your pointing question- the point rarely carries the full weight of the arm harness, but rather stops the harness from riding down and digging or stopping your wrist from moving. One point SHOULD be sufficient. YMMV.
Hope that makes some sense.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:34 am

That is as I understand it, yes.

The other reason I chose the pourpoint and cotte is because the garment must be significantly more substantial to deal with having more weight attached to it. My desire to minimize bulk led to the decision to have two thin garments, because the thicker arming doublets don't do it for me. The pourpoint is not in the CdB pattern, unless it's just the torso part--the armholes are generously cut as a CdB is.

The heavier your arm harness, the sturdier your construction methods must be. The weight of the arm harness I have is low enough that a simple re-inforced square is sufficient. I don't know how much weight that construction could take, but I can tell that much more, and it would begin to start to pull the collar down side to side at the neck.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.thecompaignyestore.com

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:10 am

"Someone will need rent more than a helmet someday"

Perhaps one day... fater Kate wises up and kick me out.

but that helmet will be placed on me to go into the grave.

Besides now that we FINALLY sold the house, we will soon be able to enjoy our new tax bracket.

Now that paying over $2000 in houseing costs (house note plus rent up here) has drained almost all our savings

But i plan on taking that helmet with me.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:17 am

Well as far as the reinforcement of the garment

Most SCA armour is too heavy, It's much heavier than the medieval counter part.

When you get folks making legs and such outa 14 ga mild and stainless it just become too much for all but the beefest garments to hold up.

In spring (and Titanium for that matter) you can go with thinner lighter gages and get closer to the original weights so my thinner garments do the job more than well enough.

On my old stainess stuff i don't think they could, the legs weighed almost as much as my whole rig does now.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:09 am

Since Jehan has announced the 2008 Crossroads in NM sometime in June, I thought it would be interesting to see this thread revived.

What seems to be everyone's thoughts on how this "stuff" would be transported? Pack animals or wagons? I've just been re-reading "A Distand Mirror", and sounds like a bit of both, though the booty and food stuffs seems to be the biggest single thing transported in wagons.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Alan

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:41 am

Pack animals are inefficient, though they have the benefit of increased mobility in harder, narrower terrain.

Horse and/or mule-drawn waggons is my thought. I don't have much to go on other than practicality and the understanding that there was at least a usable road network in Europe in the 14th century, if not luxurious.

We are hatching a plan to make a waggon for our cook gear someday. Something that can be dragged onto a trailer, lashed down, then rolled off at the site.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:53 pm

Any thoughts on chairs that would be appropriate for such a portrayal? Perhaps an x chair with a back, or x chair without a back?

I'd considered making a 6 board box that would tall enough to serve double duty as a make-shift bench.

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Thanks Gentlemen!

Alan

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:07 pm

Sorry for how long it took to find this and reply. I had a real nice answer typed up for you but it got eated up by the slow connection I have.

Yes, the six board chest as bench works. I use it that way. As a matter of fact, I'd recommend it highly, as it's very efficient.

Chairs have been a real hassle to figure out. One possible chair type was like the attached photo. In addition to this photo of a 13th century example, I have illustrations dated to the early 14th century and the early 15th century which are similar in form if not specifics in terms of design motif. I think the type was generic to western and northern Europe, and I'm pretty confident that this style is the way to go.

X Chairs are, to the best of my knowledge, a late 15th century style. If that's your era, then go for it. But don't do another Savonarola copy. It's been done quite enough.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:32 pm

I'm not really happy with how this whole thread has turned out. It's been about four years in the making, and it's sort of gotten weed-infested and disorganized, and then there's the recent progress that got wiped by the database dump. It feels ungainly and difficult to understand.

I need to try and re-do this, from the standpoint of how I would suggest a new person go about it.

If would re-organize it into several "Steps." For example:

Step One: The Basics (Clothes, Tableware, and Something to Put it In)

Step Two: Lodgings (Tentage and Bedding)

Step Three: The Shiny Bits (Arms and Armour)

Step Four: The Scullery (Kitchen Stuff)

Step Five: The Extras (Accessories)

Sort of ironically, La Belle Compaignye beat me to the punch on the whole "How To" or group compendium sort of book. I had been planning a similar sort of thing but haven't gotten to it. I figured that I would need a similar number of years of experience before trying.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:44 pm

Sort of ironically, La Belle Compaignye beat me to the punch on the whole "How To" or group compendium sort of book. I had been planning a similar sort of thing but haven't gotten to it. I figured that I would need a similar number of years of experience before trying.

There always room for more....go for it.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:21 pm

This year so far has been rather extraordinary in terms of acquisitions--I always tend to make myself happy while deployed by spending. However, my focus this year has been on kitchen implements and stuff that can be used by others. For example:

1. Patrick Thaden Bronze Cauldron
2. 43# English Longbow and one dozen ash shafts
3. Handgonne
4. Knives
5. Arming cotte (I need to get on Klaus the Red to deliver).
6. Numerous pottery articles
7. 3 Belts

I'll try and do as many photographs as possible of all of it during Crossroads in Time this June. As I have said, it all has become so unwieldy that it is difficult to see in my mind altogether.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Sun May 25, 2008 6:50 am

So, how much "money" would a Gentleman at Arms have with him at any given point in time while traveling about? Kind of the medieval equivelent of what we would carry in our wallets?

Same question, but for and English archer, perhaps heading to France for some gainful employment?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts....

Alan

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sun May 25, 2008 11:20 am

Hell if I know. It would be total guess. I would have to dig out my Organization of The Hundred Years War Under Edward III to make even that guess.

An archer on his way would have been paid for properly mustering at the port of debarkation, but I don't recall that payments for service were given in advance. Archers were paid a smaller rate for marching to the port of debarkation. So, not a large amount, I would think.

I would love to be pounced upon and shown definitive information.

A gentleman, I dunno--several marks? I keep one pound of replica coin readily accessible as a prop for my portrayal--gold coin replicas could easily make this feasible. I have thought that I would like to strike out a paychest and have it as a prop for the absent Sir John Strother.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:20 pm

Picked up a fleshhe hoke, and a prunted glass beaker.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:21 pm

Hello all

I hope from the message above about the thread being a little weed infested that this isn't just adding to the weds, but I was revisiting some old threads and came across this one and wanted to show were I have got to with my own bits and pieces so far. A slightly earlier look than some of the pictures above and I haven't gotten round to making my legs and the picture doesn't have my helmet in it, a shovel visored bascinet. But its slowly coming together. I'd happily help with deweeding and pruning to a series of lists is the project is still on?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/606 ... f0f8_b.jpg

All the best and hope this helps or is of interest?

Graham

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:14 am

Graham,

Your kit looks great! What do you plan on doing for you leg armour and a helmet?

How are you and your group doing?

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:44 am

Randall, thanks mate, I'll PM you about the group etc ... be nice to catch up, I hope you are all keeping well.

The helmet is here:

http://www.greenleaf-workshop.co.uk/gal ... G_3629.JPG

http://www.greenleaf-workshop.co.uk/gal ... G_3623.JPG

I get the impression that this was more of a cavalry helm than an infantry one, but I like the shape and with the visor up its workable for foot combat, but happy to be taught otherwise. The leg harness will be an articulated one, probably with a closed greave ... still on the drawing board for that :D

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:36 am

Not sure if it was developed for foot or cavalry more than the other. You see this type of bascinet in much of western Europe on both mounted and infantry men, usually knights by the looks of things.

It is a nice helmet, the visor has some nice subtle lines in its shape.

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Mon May 21, 2012 4:40 am

Randall, as promised here's the finished thing with Hazel and Liz

Great day out at Winchester Great Hall. Hazel, my daughter, wouldn't appear in the picture unless I held DOlly's hand

Not very manly I know, but it was a time of chivalry as well.

Not sure about the fauld though?

All the best

Graham

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue May 22, 2012 7:28 am

Looking good Graham!

Looks like you all have some very nice clothing together. Who would not want to hold hands with Dolly? Hazel is super cute. Scary how fast they grow. William is in school now. Is the dolly hand made as well. That is a super good idea. We have making children toys on our list of things to do for this summer.

Are you now finished with your 14th century harness? I think the fauld works fine. There are a few uses of scale armour in Europe during this period and faulds are one of them. I'd suspect scale sabatones next most common and after that vambraces of all things. Really like the look of your pair of plates and your metal working skills are well shown with your arm and leg armour. Those gauntlets look very good as well. nI'd say you should have raised your visor for the picture but I take my pictures visor down for the most part as well.

Ah Winchester. Really miss living there sometimes. Being able to go to visit such cool places was really a blast. I really loved Westgate as well.

Thanks for posting the picture!

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Tue May 22, 2012 7:35 am

ohhh, scale sabatons? That'd be nice and different, I don't suppose you can point me towards any effigies can you? I'd like to try that, was going to go for maille as I have some off cuts, but scale would be much nicer

Yup, they grow up fast. A friend of mine made dolly, but yes all hand made, Hazel has started to make a dress for her which is great news. Dolly has a Roman and medieval outfit, so more than me!

XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq)

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Re: XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq

Re: XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq

Re: XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq

Re: XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq

Re: XPost - ... a late 14th C English gentleman of arms (Esq