I wanna be a SWEDE, 1490-1510

Post by JT » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:08 am

This is for Ingrid (because she's cute!) :wink:

I wanna be a northern-european gothic person. Swedish in the time of Sten Sture and the Kalmar Union. About 1470-1500.
http://www.olofsgillet.org/ is a cool site.
Obviously the sisigmund suit (sp)
Lorents/kolman Helmschmidt (only have seen a few things)
erm. Don't know what I ought to ask!

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:52 am

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Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:28 am

You wanna be a Swede! You are a Swede LOL! I bet Chef may know something about their importing habits. I suspect most of their armour was imported from Germany. I think I have a link to a Swedish site, I'll try and find it. Seems like most if not all the armour the 15th cent re-enactors use there is German in style...Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:04 am

This was all I came up with, sorry...http://hem.passagen.se/malmomedeltid/?noframe

Alexander Graff · Post by **Alexander Graff** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:10 pm

As far as we know, a specific Swedish style of armour did not exist during this period, what we have is some preferences in the imports from Germany. For example, kettlehats seem to have been popular.
The armour in the St. George statue is probably loosely based on the armour Sten Sture wore at the battle of Brunkeberg in 1471, but the original would have been far less ornate. I live about 100 metres from the church with the statue, so I can snap some closeups of it if anyone's interested.
My suggestion is to look at the north german sources, and decide what sort of person you want to portray - bear in mind that there were only about 500 "knights" in Sweden at the time, and that equipment would have differed greatly based on social status. There are few uniquely Swedish sources, however, and here are some examples:

These are some pictures drawn by a German mercenary, Paul Dolnstein, in 1502.
In the first one, notice the abundance of crossbows, kettlehats and even the odd old-fashioned bascinet here and there:
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/ovriga_folk2.htm
The second one, a closeup of a swedish peasant soldier compared to one of Dolnsteins countrymen, an early landsknecht. Note the unusual wide pants, far from the continental slim fit! Perhaps a local fashion worn by simpler folk, or a disturbing reminder that we know very little of the period we are portraying.
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/ovriga_folk1.htm

Here are some recently taken pictures from the Historical Museum of Stockholm, the sallet being the only one preserved with swedish provenance. Enjoy!

http://wwwt.historiska.se/shmmk/Henrik/ ... shmbilder/

Alexander Graff
The Guild of St. Olaus

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:41 pm

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Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:15 pm

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Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:39 pm

Who is the armourers mark attributed to?

Alexander Graff · Post by **Alexander Graff** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:43 am

Ingrid,

Sture is a family name, shared by three prominent statesmen in the period.
First we have Sten Sture the Elder (1440-1503), elected regent of Sweden after the death of king Karl Knutsson. He showed great skill as a statesman, won over popular support amongst the peasantry and defeated the Danish king Christian I at the battle of Brunkeberg in 1471.
Next, there is Svante Sture (d. 1512), succeeding Sten Sture as regent. Not as brilliant as his predecessor, he still resisted the Danish claims of sovereignty.
Finally Sten Sture the Younger (1492-1520), the son of Svante Sture.
A long-lasting family feud between the Trolle family and the Sture family grew in proportions as Gustav Trolle was elected Archbishop of Uppsala shortly after Sten Sture t.Y was elected regent. After many intrigues, Trolle allied with the Danish and brought war again to Swedish soil.
Danish king Christian II landed his army outside of Stockholm in summer 1518, but was fought back. Mediating attempts by the papacy failed, and Christian attacked again in 1520, this time with a papal bull excommunicating Sture. The Danish attack succeeded, and Sten Sture the Younger was mortally wounded in the battle.

This is the coat of arms of the Sture family:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sv/b/bb/Sture3s.JPG[/img]

Basically, in the old Swedish naming system you could have a family name (like Sture) but also a surname based on your fathers name.
For example, if your fathers name was Nils and your name is Erik, you will be called Erik Nilsson. = Erik, Nils's Son. Largely the same system they use in Iceland until this day. (like the name of icelandic popsinger BjÃƒÂ¶rk GuÃƒÂ°mundsdÃƒÂ³ttir - it means BjÃƒÂ¶rk, the daughter of GuÃƒÂ°mund)
This system has long since been abandoned in Sweden, so nowadays if my fathers surname was Nilsson, I would inherit that name.

I'll try to get some pics of the St. George statue during the weekend.

Alexander Graff · Post by **Alexander Graff** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:47 am

Thomas,

I am not sure if it is known what armourer could have made the sallet, I'll try to find out. It is a nice one, however!

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:00 pm

The first drawing shows a man on the left wearing a helmet with cow horns. Since he was swedish that means that 15th C swedes wore horned helmets. Swedes were Vikings. A 15th C helmet with horns did not come from a vacuum. There must be a cultural preference for horned helmets. That means that my 10C Viking horned-helmet persona is now validated, and there is nothing you all can do about it!

Now onto Viking weight-belts, or dare I say it ..Lamellar. Bwahahaha!

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:22 pm

Clinker wrote:The first drawing shows a man on the left wearing a helmet with cow horns. Since he was swedish that means that 15th C swedes wore horned helmets. Swedes were Vikings. A 15th C helmet with horns did not come from a vacuum. There must be a cultural preference for horned helmets. That means that my 10C Viking horned-helmet persona is now validated, and there is nothing you all can do about it!

Now onto Viking weight-belts, or dare I say it ..Lamellar. Bwahahaha!

Could be a fool's hat. I'd have to see a much clearer image before I agreed this depicted a pair of cowhorns on a helmet.

Cheers,
Tim

L. Lehtoruusu · Post by **L. Lehtoruusu** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:45 am

Hi,
I've also thought about Swedish and particularly Finnish armour because I intend to reenact a late 15th century Finn. Sources seem to be very scarce and limited to be illustratations and statues with the exeption of that sallet.
From browsing through images of wooden religious statues on altarclosets, a vast majority of the ones with armour - St. Erik and St. George - has a certain type of cuirass. Usually the faulds seem longer than on contemporary german suits. The breastplates have a middle crease and two other creases begin from the lower end of the middle crease. Opposite to the plackard is a raised triangle whose tip points towards the plackard.
There is less fluting than on many german suits, but that may be due to the difficulty of carving multiple flutes close together.
Scandinavian armour could also have a touch of Flemish influence, because Scandinavian merchants are likely to trade with merchants from LÃƒÂ¼beck. The way to Antwerpen, which if i remember correctly was some kind of a Fflemish armouring center, would probably be shorter and easier than the route to southern Germany.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of sources we are simply forced to guess as to what Swedish and Finnish armour of the period looked like.

If you want to look at the wooden sculptures, this search will show you heaps of them:
http://www.historiska.se/medeltidbild/s ... p?sakord=mÃƒÂ¥lning&listtyp=objekt
Couple of somewhat similar statues are in the National museum of Finland in Helsinki. Those have been produced in LÃƒÂ¼beck.

Cheers,
Lauri

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:48 pm

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Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:27 am

Hi Ingrid,

Just to add to what Alexander posted. There are several drawings of Paul Dolstein reproduced in "Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560" by John Richards. Although it is a book about the Landsknecht so there isn't much about the Swedes in it. Richards does translate some of Paul's text that relates to the Swedes.

About the battle with the Swedes he says, "We were 1800 Germans, and we were attacked by 15,000 Swedish farmers. God gave us victory and we struck most of them dead. We were all wearing breast and back plates, skullcaps, and arm defences, and they had crossbows and good pikes made from swords. Afterwards, the King of Denmark knighted us all and did us great honour and paid us well and let us return over the sea in 1503. I, Paul Dolstein was there and Sir Sigmund List was our Obrist. "

The interesting part is about the pikes made from swords. I think maybe Paul was doing some exaggerating.

Also there is one drawing of a Landsknecht fighting a Swedish knight wearing full armour and it may depict an armet. You can see something that looks like a rondel, but it is hard to tell. Hope this helps.

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:40 am

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Raymund · Post by **Raymund** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:04 am

Some two-hand swords with a somewhat distinct nordic form (ca 1500):
http://www.geocities.com/gutniskagardet/3-swords.jpg

As a reading excersise there is also the SturekrÃƒÂ¶nikorna, written in old Swedish covering the years 1452-1520:
http://spraakdata.gu.se/ktext/sture.html

/R

Shmankey · Post by **Shmankey** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:40 pm

Such awesome armour stuff. it looks way cool..

L. Lehtoruusu · Post by **L. Lehtoruusu** » Sun May 08, 2005 3:33 am

Hi,
I visited Stockholm last week and took some pictures from the Royal armouries, The Livrustkammaren. Most of the pieces weren't quite in your timeframe, but I thought I'd show the ones I believe are the closest to it.

Here are the pics: http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/lauri_lehtoruusu/album?.dir=/24b2

Enjoy!

Tubal · Post by **Tubal** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:16 pm

Jason Grimes wrote:The interesting part is about the pikes made from swords. I think maybe Paul was doing some exaggerating. :)

In one of the pictures above, the one with the baggy pants, the swedish peasant soldier is described as wearing (translated): "a harness, mail hood, kettlehat, stave-sword, long sword and probably arrows in the sack on the back". The long staff he's holding does look a little curious...

The article the picture appears in (HERE, in swedish) is pretty interesting and states that the peasants, or farmers, were relatively well equipped though I can't vouch for it's accuracy. He does have a quite substantial list of references though, always a good sign.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:24 pm

Yes, Thanks Tubal. Sorry I wasn't more clear on my comment that Paul was exaggerating. I ment that he might have been exaggerating about the number of farmers they fought. 15000 seems a little large. I just don't think that 1800 Landsknecht would have been able to last againced 15000. No matter how good they were, the shear numbers would have worn them down eventually.

The picture is very interesting though, for a Swedish farmer he is very well equipped. I would even say a little better equiped then the Landsknecht. Notice though where the Landsknecht choose to attack. He is avoiding the hard spots where the Swede is armoured and going for the quickest way to disable him.

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:14 pm

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Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:19 pm

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Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:39 pm

Ohhh nice sallet! I like those half armours you posted, do you know if the crests are original? Thanks... Otto

William of Richwood · Post by **William of Richwood** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:13 pm

Gustav III (1746-1792) was king of Sweden during 1771-1792 and much can be said about him. During his reign there was a raised interest for the past and at lest on one occation there were a feast with a tournament (jousting) and a folowing banquet. The armour shown may origin from something like this.

//william

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:59 pm

Is there any record of the name Gustav being used before the 1700's?

William of Richwood · Post by **William of Richwood** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:24 pm

Yes, there is.

Gustav Eriksson, Gustav I, Gustav Vasa, (same guy, but the last is probably the one most well known) come in handy. He was probably born in the mid 1490:ies (May 12 1496 are held as possible but we do not know for sure) and was regent of Sweden 1521-1523 and king 1523-1560.
It is said that the new era in Sweden started with him and lots of significant changes took place during his reign.

//William