I wanna be a STEPPES WARRIOR

Post by JT » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:37 am

Everybody expects the Mongol Horde... but it never stopped us!

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:23 am

I'm looking into this and would apreciate sources, pics, advice. Don't forget it wasn't just the Mongols, though.
Anyone got a copy of Pechenegs, Cumans & Iasians for sale? Forget author at the moment. The wise Egfroth knows though!

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:58 am

Hi Animal,
Got the first two links - they are useful - will probably buy bow direct from either Kassai or Grozer in Hungary - a lot cheaper!
Lamellar - not keen on the plastic so will be going for leather or steel.

Costume - only just started working on it. Made a couple of pairs of shalwar (salwar) pants and have added design to products on our site (not a great photo)http://www.thewarriorsgateway.com
Will be working on a del pattern/design (based on The Rad Kaganate design from their page).
Gutal I'm wondering about making myself as well, but probably not (may have a go a felt version) Armstreet do a fairly nice approximation at a reasonable price for hand-made (about $130 - $140 I think).
I did have a fair number of links but a computer foul-up means they're consigned to cyber-death and I'll have to go hunt for them all over again.

Thanks guys.
PS - Going to be trying to make Kumiss this weekend!

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:20 pm

Yah - hope to use this persona for steel combat but will shortly (hopefully) be attending my first SCA practice.
I may yet end up making my own lamellae.
I think Grozer go an adult as well as a childs Scythian, I know Kassai do.

On the subject of steel combat - any leads on where I can get a combat worthy (and reasonably priced) sabre. I'd prefer one fairly correct for period but I'm willing to mod a civil war repro or similar. I know Samarkandia do one, but I want to see if I can find one cheaper.
Did you make your del, Animal or buy it?

Rich C · Post by **Rich C** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:16 pm

Speaking of
http://www.samarkandia.com/en/peuple-2.php
http://www.samarkandia.com/en/peuple-3.php
http://www.samarkandia.com/en/peuple-1.php

has anyone here in the land of the round doorknob ever bought from them.
I am REALLy thinking of ordering some stuff.

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:29 pm

Not bought from them - although their answers to queries have been prompt and polite - very helpful.
I believe there bows are Grozer, and therefore subject to a certain mark-up.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:35 pm

recently bought direct from Grozer. great to deal with. got the 'Old Scythian'. great/affordable bow. also have a Kassai Mongol, highly recommended. but if you can afford Saluki, go for it.....

finishing a Greek kit right now, but will make Scythian clothing to wear w/ the helmet and greaves next winter. out practice space is pretty cold and a chiton won't cut it.

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:41 pm

So,
had a go at a del. Pattern- drawn onto fabric with tailors chalk and straight edge (Red Kaganate based)
This is essentially the outer shell. No lining, or ties as yet. Took about 2 - 3 hours to cut and stitch to this point. Fabric is a fairly heavy cotton, with slubbing, that I happened to have lurking around. To be finished once I've done some work for profit!

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:09 pm

Greetings to all my Steppe Brothers (and sisters),

I am getting a bunch of copies of German articles on Scythians from Giano sometime in the near future. Once I get them translated I will make them available to whoever wants them.

I am already in the process of growing my hair and beard back out for the Scythian impression.

Chhers,
Tim

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:15 pm

If you get tired of waiting, Orc, I've got a lamellar harness for sale.

Haven't been by this corner for a bit, but... wow.
I have a **photocopy** of Cumans, Iasians, and Pechenegs, but have no idea where it can actually be purchased.

It's also possible that some of the e. euro bows were fired using a "modified med release," rather than with thumbring. I've seen images that are inconclusive one way or the other.

(mmtr - thumb and 4finger hold arrow, 4finger and middle finger pull string, two smallest fingers hold two more arrows by the arrowhead for shooting).

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:39 pm

Animal:

Your harness is coming along nicely! Bravo!

----------------

To the List:

Latest developments in my quest towards a Scythian Impression---

Today I ordered an "Old Scythian" bow from Grozer, custom made to be no more than 30# at 28" draw so I can use it with fiberglass-shafted blunts in SCA combat. It's going to run me about $190 (???) shipped from Hungary.

Giano said he put the photocopies of the SCythian stuff in the mail for me today. I am going to make him some custom buckle stuff to repay him for his efforts.

I am planning to order one of the Windlass Scythian swords.

-----------------

My Goals:

Clothing
2-3 suits of Scythian clothing: one more courtly and lavish, one more simple and one to wear while fighting + enough shirts/undertunics to last a week (at least 4, some can be washed and be drying during that period)
Clothing suits to include trousers, tunic, undertunic, hat and boots.

Accoutre
Plaque belt, decorated whip, knife, torc, etc.

Arms & Armour
One Scythian harness of slatted scale; one Greek hoplite style harness; SCA legal combat bow; 36-48 SCA combat blunts; sword replica; gorytos replica for real arrows; gorytos replica for SCA combat blunts; replica handaxe, replica spear, replica arrows with target points; repica arrows with replica points.

Camp Furnishings
16 - 20 foot diameter ger (yurt) decorated on outside with Scythian motivs; Bed (wood frame with stretched hide, hair-on); trunks and baskets; rugs and hides for the floor; brazier on tripod; oli lamps; suitably disguised ice chest (in trunk or basket); artistic wall hangings; stools; replica Scythian table; greek pottery/eating ware; wine amphoras, drinking vessels (maybe the chalice out of the "human" skull?); armour stands, etc.

If I end up getting serious enough about this, I might eventually order a saddle. I saw one on Grozer's site! Check out the felt saddlecloths too!

-----------------

Cheers,
Tim

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:15 pm

Yall know i don't much care for "exotic" personas

I'm also not a huge fan of the "GRRRR ME AM BARBARIAN" crowd

BUT....

That being said Mongols are friggin COOL!!! And they fought Europeans in the middle ages (unlike Samurai).

I might make a Step warrior rig just to freak people out. Espically if i could find something like Titanium lamalar plates. Great excuse to get another helmet and a horse. :twisted:

And Animal i like the new sig line.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:01 pm

"Barbarian was a greek word they applied to everyone that didnt speak greek."

Yeah they thought that the languages of the German people sounded like "ber-ber" the sound of sheep.

"For whatever reason the modern sense of the word got turned into cavemen like people wearing furs and carrying clubs around."

Well as languages changes words get diffrent connatations. Pagan changes from country dweller to worshiper of non Judeo-christian dieties, Chivalry changes from "the art of fighting from horseback" to a code of behavior practiced by the military elite.

"People of the steppes were nomads and warriors, not idiots. Their way of life is a real triumph over one of the harshest environments on the planet to live in. To thrive under such conditions is a tribute to their intelligence and strength."

Adapt and overcome.

"From a Tuchux point of view you guys are the barbarians. We feel we're quite cultured and advanced. We enjoy your lifestyle immensely but find the mainstream of the SCA to be a bit incomprehensible."

Dude those of us _in_ the SCA have that same problem as often as not.

"But these would be the same differences historically I would think. "

Probably a decent approximation of "culture shock"
Again the things we don't try to recreat, we recreate the best.

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:35 pm

To the best of my knowledge - sabre (Huns didn't use a sabre, they used a straight-blade sword) , mace or fokos (pr fokosh).

A Fokos (a Magyar weapon - may have been used by others) is a form of axe - often "backed" with a variety of differents things - hammer, spike, ball etc. I believe the Red Kaganate site has a good variety of picture.
SHield, if any would generally be round and fairly small.
Lassoos were also used by some Steppe Nomadic cultures.
I know full well that there are others that are more knowledgable on this - care to step in guys?

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:26 am

SCYTHIAN KIT UPDATE:

Ordered a sample of steel strapping to see if it will work for fabricating scales
Ordered a metal punch from Harbor Freight
Arranging to buy a steel round helmet top as the basis to fabricate a Corinthian/Chalcidian hem
Unsuccessful in trying to order a Museum Replicas Scythian sword as it has been discontinued. Next plan is to convert a kinjal I have into a Scythian sword by making a hit in wax and having it cast in bronze
Reviewing the reserach sent by Giano on bows, hairstyles, clothing, wagons, pottery, and armour
Still growing out my hair and beard. I'm starting to look decidedly more Scythian

Cheers,
Tim

Taiga · Post by **Taiga** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:23 pm

A bit off-topic, but something I've always been curious about:
We all know that steppe nomads/warriors were fantastic archers, one of the reasons why they had such an impact on the civilizations around them. We also know that the bows used by these people were often made out of horn.
What I'm wondering is where did these guys get the wood for all of their arrows? My impression of the steppes is that they are essentially miles upon miles of grasslands, broken up by the occassional bush or tree. Am I wrong about this? Did these peoples, in their nomadic journeys, make the occassional trip to nearby forests to get what they needed? Obviously they got the wood from somewhere, but where did they get it?

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:10 am

Not sure about this one, but a) you don't need big trees for arrows, b)you can make arrows from stout reeds that may grow near any lakes/rivers, c)trade/steal, d)bamboo would be available to more eastern groups.

Just a few ideas really and probably completely inaccurate

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:27 pm

Taiga wrote:A bit off-topic, but something I've always been curious about:
We all know that steppe nomads/warriors were fantastic archers, one of the reasons why they had such an impact on the civilizations around them. We also know that the bows used by these people were often made out of horn.
What I'm wondering is where did these guys get the wood for all of their arrows? My impression of the steppes is that they are essentially miles upon miles of grasslands, broken up by the occassional bush or tree. Am I wrong about this? Did these peoples, in their nomadic journeys, make the occassional trip to nearby forests to get what they needed? Obviously they got the wood from somewhere, but where did they get it?

Some Scythian and Sarmatian graves contained arrows shafted with reeds.

Todd Feinman · Post by **Todd Feinman** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:00 pm

Arundo Donax (bassoon reed) or Phragmites Communis were commonly
used for arrow shafts by many cultures. You can buy these reeds at nurseries, but have to grow them. Arundo Donax is a very invasive species in states like California.

john springfield · Post by **john springfield** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:04 am

The steppes nomads demanded and received tribute from the peoples surrounding them. They also had the merchant caravans to either extract bounty from or to attack and take what they needed or wanted. They raided outside thier area and took what they needed the people would then offer annual tribute to them so that they would stop and then not return. It sometimes worked. They were brutaly effective at war. They would each put 4-5 arrows in the air at the same time then they would charge in while the enemy was busy ducking arrows and hit them with a quick running attack then when the opponets got somewhat organized they would retreat at a slower pace then when the opponets statred chasing them they would split apart turning the retreat into a charge circling the enemy and hit them again. The Romans respected them and exchanged hostages and tribute to ensure they were safe from them.

chrisvika · Post by **chrisvika** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:09 am

I have a (modern) del and the jacket worn over it (don't remember the name, I think it may have been "khooriem". I'd be glad to send you some pics, if you are interested.

Uriel · Post by **Uriel** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:19 pm

Have you checked the Silk Road Armoury's website?

http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3505/

Bake Nasty · Post by **Bake Nasty** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:51 am

Cheers,
Does anyone know of a pattern/tutorial for Mongol boots?

EDIT: OH, wait, never mind..

http://www.laohats.com/studypages/ulanbaator_boot.htm

Uneg · Post by **Uneg** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:01 am

Given that the Olen-Kolodetz site had a maille shirt in barrow #7, what would be the best option for someone to purchase and have something close to right (as opposed to making it themself)? Riveted, I presume.
But flat or round wire?

Hauberk (full-sleeve, longer, split for riding) or haubergon (elbow-length sleeve, shorter, no split)?
Some combination thereof (elbow-length sleeve, longer, split for riding)?

I have read a reference to William of Rubrouk's journey where he came across two Mongol riders wearing "hauberks" which they got from the Alans (in the osprey book "The Mongols", by Turnbull and McBride), but I have as of yet been unable to search out patterns or visual references to Alani chain shirts. I realize that may be a few decades earlier than the Olen-Kolodetz site, but I thought it would be a good reference?

My latin is *really* poor, so I was searching through an english version of the original and have not yet found the meeting described in the Osprey book. Am I way off?

Thank you for your time.

Hanlin · Post by **Hanlin** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:13 pm

Hello all,

I am working on a shield for my Mongolian persona (the exact years are still up for debate as I have some core armor clashes at this point

) Anyway, I am looking to create a round shield. I have a shield boss and was planning to use aluminum for the body (roughly 26"-30"round). Then covering the aluminum to look interesting, and hopefully correct. The problem I have been having is figuring out what actual shield were made of... I've found reference to wicker, animal hide, wood, metals etc...

So I was hoping to get some advice regarding that. What would be the most correct... wood, metal, leather?

Any help or directions on where to look would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Hanlin

Ulricus von Geusa · Post by **Ulricus von Geusa** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:33 am

I suppose this is a bit of a necropost, but I have a newbie question. Would the Magyars fall under this same banner? Did they use lamellar? What other kinds of arms/armour would they have used?

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:43 am

Yes - Magyars were originally Steppe Nomads, yes I believe they used lamellar. Would have used most if not all of the weapons mentioned above.
Not sure about other armour.
I stand ready to be corrected by more knowledgeable folk than myself :)

Amaris10 · Post by **Amaris10** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:46 am

Orc,

How about pics with the coat open, so I can see how it is cut? :)

I run as a Seljuk, and like to get a closer look at the coat.

Thanks,

Amaris

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Will have to dig it out and take a photo.
Never did get around to finishing it though (embarrassment)

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:34 pm

Hmm....appears to be missing...presumed missing. Haven't worn it since we moved about 3 years ago. If it turns up I'll sort out photos. If I can dig out enough fabric I'll try and knock another one up.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:21 pm

Hi! Resident magyar-wannabe here. Married one, anyway. :)

"Early" magyars absolutely used lamellar armor. After they settle in the Carpathian basin, it gets a lot more complicated, particularly as the Hungarians were one of the very few of these folks to maintain contingents expected to fight at close quarters (in stark contrast, for instance, to the Pechenegs). And then you have numerous waves of migrations with each group bringing in their own stuff, and lots of mixing and matching, and copious use of mercenaries (for instance, fighting Byzantium in the 12-13th centuries, with both sides using Seljuk mercs)... it's one of the very few places where, so long as you stayed within reason, you could mix-and-match for convenience and be sufficiently plausible for SCA stuff.

Now, if you wanted to do LH-level impressions, the bar goes up considerably. Not on the materials cost or "authenticity" business, but on the effort required to know who you are, where you are, what you're doing, which affects what you pick.

Let me know how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. :D

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:39 pm

Ah Russ! Greetings!
I can step back and let someone who knows what they're talking about take over....phew! :)

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:15 pm

Well... I try not to go TOO far astray...

Ulricus von Geusa · Post by **Ulricus von Geusa** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:41 pm

How early are we talking before they settled in the Carpathian basin? And what exactly are the limits to "stay within reason"? What sort of kit are you looking at when it comes to helm, shield, pauldrons, gauntlets, legs etc?

Thanks!

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:45 pm

Actually, Ulricus... I'm in here to help YOU with that question... what are you looking for? Splinted arms and legs are fine in this period for magyars, as is lamellar, shields either round or oval (or potentially kite, if you like, though it's rare)... gauntlets are, well, completely undocumented and do whatever the SCA demands of you. Helm you want an egg-shaped job of the so-called Great Moravian type.

I wanna be a STEPPES WARRIOR

I wanna be a STEPPES WARRIOR

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