Hey all,
I published a guide to how I make braies for my 1250-1314 portrayals in the current issue (#106) of Renaissance magazine. I don't get paid per issue sold so this is not a plug, just thought folks would want to know. My method precisely recreates the images in the Mac bible and is cheaper and easier than sweatpants. Thought the old Scots would want to know about it. I'll post in "Interpretive Recreation" as well for ongoing discussion of the reconstruction method.
http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/
I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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jamesedgarson
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I'll try this again. This was the issue of Medieval Warfare Magazine that I was referring to, hopefully THIS link works.
https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/p ... fare-iv.3/
I quite enjoy MW Magazine. Unfortunately it only makes it's way up here four times a year. It should be noted that this issue deals with the Scottish Wars of Independence which began at the end of the 13th and then into the early 14th (although some would argue the struggle to maintain a sovereign nation continued all the way up to the Act of Union). So for the purpose of a '14th Century Scot' it deals with the very early end of the century.
https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/p ... fare-iv.3/
I quite enjoy MW Magazine. Unfortunately it only makes it's way up here four times a year. It should be noted that this issue deals with the Scottish Wars of Independence which began at the end of the 13th and then into the early 14th (although some would argue the struggle to maintain a sovereign nation continued all the way up to the Act of Union). So for the purpose of a '14th Century Scot' it deals with the very early end of the century.
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
MW's Scottish wars issue is one I've been meaning to track down but so far no success, I believe its already a back issue here. I actually published something in there as well about a year ago, covering the move of the Higgins collection.
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Hey,
Thought this would be of great use to Scottish reenactors, since most of us are at least marginally interested in pike formations...
http://deventerburgerscap.blogspot.com/ ... d-its.html
Thought this would be of great use to Scottish reenactors, since most of us are at least marginally interested in pike formations...
http://deventerburgerscap.blogspot.com/ ... d-its.html
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Let the article out into the wild!J. Morgan Kuberry wrote:Hey all,
I published a guide to how I make braies for my 1250-1314 portrayals in the current issue (#106) of Renaissance magazine. I don't get paid per issue sold so this is not a plug, just thought folks would want to know. My method precisely recreates the images in the Mac bible and is cheaper and easier than sweatpants. Thought the old Scots would want to know about it. I'll post in "Interpretive Recreation" as well for ongoing discussion of the reconstruction method.
http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/
Loose the braies! Do it here!
Fearghus Cochrane
Squire to Baron Gareth Nicodemus Somerset OP, OL, KSCA
"propterea accipite armaturam Dei ut possitis resistere in die malo et omnibus perfectis stare"
Squire to Baron Gareth Nicodemus Somerset OP, OL, KSCA
"propterea accipite armaturam Dei ut possitis resistere in die malo et omnibus perfectis stare"
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Not sure J. on the info in those blog posts.
Their proving of the use of pikes is based on terms which he argues means the pike was clearly in use....... as a person who spends his entire career in medieval documents I'd be wary of such assumptions. Medieval terminology is not always as specific at times as we'd like to think (though I am not sure I'd say we are more specific as we have very fluid terms as well in many cases). In the one instance he argues they are listed aside lances so they cannot be the same item, true they are trying to mark difference, but that does not mean the one is a 16-18 foot long pike. It could be anything from design of the head, shaft or their means of attachment who knows it does not have to mean an 18 foot long shafted weapon though. This is a dangerous assumption as even terms that are used over a long period of time change substantially from inception to later use.
The illustration they use to indicate the godendags likely were pikes is a modern redo of an original work so care should be taken. Comparing this to original art of the period with such arms they always show much smaller weapons for these, usually a bit heftier (SP?). Some could be spear/pikes as they are somewhat different in design though but I am not sure they were drawn intentionally shorter either. Seeing how lances are shown in art full length his argument for space seems to be also questionable. After finding the clubs in a number of accounts in several kingdoms I am hesitant to think this line of reasoning is strong enough on its own as it is clear clubs/mace items are in use all over. That said this is another discussion going on in the Norwich, Soton and other civic accounts as it could be a spear or stave as well... or it could be a catch all phrase as spears only show up amongst the men-at-arms and armed men which would be strange, so I suspect this discussion to go on for some time.
As well the 19th and early 20th century examples of length would be useful if they could track down where they were from. Going back and reviewing the originals is imperative here, especially with that early period of academics as the craft was still developing and many things have changed in terms understanding and such. I'd not trust the accounts like this unless we could get more info.
The only real evidence for length is the Italian artwork here. This is categorically a very long spear or pike but not 18 feet. It we gauge length by the gents in the illustration as 5.5-6 feet tall those spears are likely 9-13 feet long. Still shorter by their 5 meters/18 feet but I would assume many of their points do carry on to such long weapons even if not as long as they are proposing. You'd still have a group that multiple ranks would be able to be engaged at one time and such.
Now I agree with their premise here though. I think longer spears were in use but 1) I am not sure they were the 16-18 foot pikes of the later periods they speak of. I suspect two handed spears have been in use for a long period of time. 2) How common where they.
Trying to figure out how common and their specifics are the trick.
I tend to think of the Scottish Schiltrons using two handed spears and such but the evidence is pretty much for me still based on art as I know of few if any textual evidence for length of spears. If art is to be trusted, after looking through hundreds of images I suspect we are looking at weapons that are about 7-11 feet. But I would love to see more examples like the Italian one closer to the areas in discussion.
Interesting discussion though for sure.
RPM
Their proving of the use of pikes is based on terms which he argues means the pike was clearly in use....... as a person who spends his entire career in medieval documents I'd be wary of such assumptions. Medieval terminology is not always as specific at times as we'd like to think (though I am not sure I'd say we are more specific as we have very fluid terms as well in many cases). In the one instance he argues they are listed aside lances so they cannot be the same item, true they are trying to mark difference, but that does not mean the one is a 16-18 foot long pike. It could be anything from design of the head, shaft or their means of attachment who knows it does not have to mean an 18 foot long shafted weapon though. This is a dangerous assumption as even terms that are used over a long period of time change substantially from inception to later use.
The illustration they use to indicate the godendags likely were pikes is a modern redo of an original work so care should be taken. Comparing this to original art of the period with such arms they always show much smaller weapons for these, usually a bit heftier (SP?). Some could be spear/pikes as they are somewhat different in design though but I am not sure they were drawn intentionally shorter either. Seeing how lances are shown in art full length his argument for space seems to be also questionable. After finding the clubs in a number of accounts in several kingdoms I am hesitant to think this line of reasoning is strong enough on its own as it is clear clubs/mace items are in use all over. That said this is another discussion going on in the Norwich, Soton and other civic accounts as it could be a spear or stave as well... or it could be a catch all phrase as spears only show up amongst the men-at-arms and armed men which would be strange, so I suspect this discussion to go on for some time.
As well the 19th and early 20th century examples of length would be useful if they could track down where they were from. Going back and reviewing the originals is imperative here, especially with that early period of academics as the craft was still developing and many things have changed in terms understanding and such. I'd not trust the accounts like this unless we could get more info.
The only real evidence for length is the Italian artwork here. This is categorically a very long spear or pike but not 18 feet. It we gauge length by the gents in the illustration as 5.5-6 feet tall those spears are likely 9-13 feet long. Still shorter by their 5 meters/18 feet but I would assume many of their points do carry on to such long weapons even if not as long as they are proposing. You'd still have a group that multiple ranks would be able to be engaged at one time and such.
Now I agree with their premise here though. I think longer spears were in use but 1) I am not sure they were the 16-18 foot pikes of the later periods they speak of. I suspect two handed spears have been in use for a long period of time. 2) How common where they.
Trying to figure out how common and their specifics are the trick.
I tend to think of the Scottish Schiltrons using two handed spears and such but the evidence is pretty much for me still based on art as I know of few if any textual evidence for length of spears. If art is to be trusted, after looking through hundreds of images I suspect we are looking at weapons that are about 7-11 feet. But I would love to see more examples like the Italian one closer to the areas in discussion.
Interesting discussion though for sure.
RPM
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Randall,
Yeah there's a reason its a blog post and not a peer reviewed journal article. But its food for thought. I don't think they were the 18 foot pikes either but that's a discussion that I think can be found earlier on the thread.
Fred,
To make the braies in the fastest cheapest simplest way, take a piece of linen, about 4 feet by 6, and wrap the long edge around your waist. Tie a cord around it to hold it there. Grab the linen where it hangs behind your calves and draw it up between your legs and tuck that bit of cloth into the cord as well. Roll the fabric down around the cord. Done. You will have the exact shape of the Mac. Bible braies including the distinctive roll around the waist and the very peculiar looking slit up the side of the leg. You will need a bit of practice to get it just right, and a little bit of tinkering with just how much you roll it up or how you finagle the bit of cloth that gets tucked into the front. But that is it. You can pluck out a bit of the waistband wherever you'd like to tie your wool chausses to it. Too confusing? Pick up the back issue of Ren, it has photos of the process. It's like $7, you can afford it considering you'll never need another pair of $30 braies again. The armour archive has never allowed me to upload photos no matter what I try to do or what computer I work from for some reason.
The long triangles that the threshers tie to their waistband is missing if you simply do the above, however. A rhombus instead of a rectangle will produce them, or you can sew triangle on, its open to experimentation. I personally suspect they were woven to shape with the triangle bits included, like some early T-tunics were. I also recommend permanently sewing in the waistband, using a thin belt instead of a cord, and figuring out just where you want your chausses to tie up and making a slit and sewing around it like an eyelet. One might also experiment with permanently sewing the edges of the fabric together, and trimming out some excess, where that bottom hem bit gets tucked into the waistband. That is probably what "they" did after all.
But braies like these, in addition to so very closely matching the Maciejowski pictures, move perfectly naturally with the leg as you walk, have no seams (so they don't wear out at the seams like commercially made ones are said to do) are good for urinating while standing up, and, can be made for a newbie in like 10 seconds. Just cut out a big piece of cloth and hem or even just stay-stitch the edge. So yeah. Good stuff. I've worn them for up to a week at Pennsic with no problems.
Yeah there's a reason its a blog post and not a peer reviewed journal article. But its food for thought. I don't think they were the 18 foot pikes either but that's a discussion that I think can be found earlier on the thread.
Fred,
To make the braies in the fastest cheapest simplest way, take a piece of linen, about 4 feet by 6, and wrap the long edge around your waist. Tie a cord around it to hold it there. Grab the linen where it hangs behind your calves and draw it up between your legs and tuck that bit of cloth into the cord as well. Roll the fabric down around the cord. Done. You will have the exact shape of the Mac. Bible braies including the distinctive roll around the waist and the very peculiar looking slit up the side of the leg. You will need a bit of practice to get it just right, and a little bit of tinkering with just how much you roll it up or how you finagle the bit of cloth that gets tucked into the front. But that is it. You can pluck out a bit of the waistband wherever you'd like to tie your wool chausses to it. Too confusing? Pick up the back issue of Ren, it has photos of the process. It's like $7, you can afford it considering you'll never need another pair of $30 braies again. The armour archive has never allowed me to upload photos no matter what I try to do or what computer I work from for some reason.
The long triangles that the threshers tie to their waistband is missing if you simply do the above, however. A rhombus instead of a rectangle will produce them, or you can sew triangle on, its open to experimentation. I personally suspect they were woven to shape with the triangle bits included, like some early T-tunics were. I also recommend permanently sewing in the waistband, using a thin belt instead of a cord, and figuring out just where you want your chausses to tie up and making a slit and sewing around it like an eyelet. One might also experiment with permanently sewing the edges of the fabric together, and trimming out some excess, where that bottom hem bit gets tucked into the waistband. That is probably what "they" did after all.
But braies like these, in addition to so very closely matching the Maciejowski pictures, move perfectly naturally with the leg as you walk, have no seams (so they don't wear out at the seams like commercially made ones are said to do) are good for urinating while standing up, and, can be made for a newbie in like 10 seconds. Just cut out a big piece of cloth and hem or even just stay-stitch the edge. So yeah. Good stuff. I've worn them for up to a week at Pennsic with no problems.
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
The debate on pike lengths makes me wonder simply, "how long did they need to be to stop a heavy cavalry charge?". They probably weren't much longer than whatever that number is. The 18 footers come about, as I recall, during an arms race between pike formations, at the time while the mounted lancer was actually declining in commonality. To stop lancers, I suspect they only needed to be able to engage them a few ranks at a time and not necessarily even have the men in the back ranks outreach the lances.
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
J.,
I guess that is it. We seem to have a major focus on making them the fully developed pike of the 16th on in the medieval period. The issue is as I see it there is not any real evidence for it.
That is a good question. We do the same thing with lances. 14-16 foot lances for men at arms. It makes sense as it allows far more reach. For mounted men's lances we have some benefit as they are fairly common in art. Wish we had more examples of pikes for footmen. I would like to make some but still debating the types of heads to make.
RPM
I guess that is it. We seem to have a major focus on making them the fully developed pike of the 16th on in the medieval period. The issue is as I see it there is not any real evidence for it.
That is a good question. We do the same thing with lances. 14-16 foot lances for men at arms. It makes sense as it allows far more reach. For mounted men's lances we have some benefit as they are fairly common in art. Wish we had more examples of pikes for footmen. I would like to make some but still debating the types of heads to make.
RPM
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I don't go by my first initial, it's just sort of... there....
In other news I think I am going to make a 12 foot pike for 15th century use and will probably use it in 1314 as well. I found a 12 foot (presumably ash) fruit picker at a consignment shop, the claw is galvanized modern sheet metal so I'd guess it is from the 1970's or 80's, right before retractable aluminum poles took over that market. Its in decent shape. I'll check back in a couple weeks when it gets discounted and if they still have it, I'm gonna put a small spear head on it!
In other news I think I am going to make a 12 foot pike for 15th century use and will probably use it in 1314 as well. I found a 12 foot (presumably ash) fruit picker at a consignment shop, the claw is galvanized modern sheet metal so I'd guess it is from the 1970's or 80's, right before retractable aluminum poles took over that market. Its in decent shape. I'll check back in a couple weeks when it gets discounted and if they still have it, I'm gonna put a small spear head on it!
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Do you go by Morgan then?
That is about the range I'd think would be great as a medieval pike. Except for travel/transport. Just big enough to be hard to pack. We had some half pikes and such at the museum I worked and getting them organized in the old prison rooms was challenging at best sometimes.
Make sure to put photos up when you have finished it.
I am working on some early halbards....
RPM
That is about the range I'd think would be great as a medieval pike. Except for travel/transport. Just big enough to be hard to pack. We had some half pikes and such at the museum I worked and getting them organized in the old prison rooms was challenging at best sometimes.
Make sure to put photos up when you have finished it.
I am working on some early halbards....
RPM
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
What is the term for using synonyms for poetic effect or prevent people quibbling about definitions, such as "to have or to hold"?RandallMoffett wrote: Their proving of the use of pikes is based on terms which he argues means the pike was clearly in use....... as a person who spends his entire career in medieval documents I'd be wary of such assumptions. Medieval terminology is not always as specific at times as we'd like to think (though I am not sure I'd say we are more specific as we have very fluid terms as well in many cases). In the one instance he argues they are listed aside lances so they cannot be the same item, true they are trying to mark difference, but that does not mean the one is a 16-18 foot long pike. It could be anything from design of the head, shaft or their means of attachment who knows it does not have to mean an 18 foot long shafted weapon though. This is a dangerous assumption as even terms that are used over a long period of time change substantially from inception to later use.
Its always good to see sources outside of the English and French ones which medievalists in the Anglophone world usually limit themselves too. But I agree that the painting by Altichiero, the 1327 law from Turin, and the 1390 law from Bremen are the deventerburgerscap's evidence for long pikes anywhere in 14th century Latin Christendom.
The sources seem to be
Ehmck, D.R. (1883), Bremisches Urkundenbuch, vol. 4; 1381-1410
Müller-Hickler, H. (1906), Studien über den langen Spieß
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Sean,
I do not think any here are saying long pikes were not in use. It is questions on their assertion that they were 16-18 feet long. As I said not a one of the pikes in the painting is 16-18 feet long. They seem to rest this argument on those two secondary sources based on primary ones. So far a search of the primary sources for me has not turned up any specific pike lengths only terms associated to pike. If you can provide them I’d love to see evidence supporting their argument. I contacted someone I know has access to the Bremen account but have not heard back on it.
It is a development issue. Assuming a term represents the fully developed weapon just because the term is in use is very questionable. If they have a primary source that flat out states length to be 16-18 feet it would be settled but that is not what I am seeing here.
RPM
I do not think any here are saying long pikes were not in use. It is questions on their assertion that they were 16-18 feet long. As I said not a one of the pikes in the painting is 16-18 feet long. They seem to rest this argument on those two secondary sources based on primary ones. So far a search of the primary sources for me has not turned up any specific pike lengths only terms associated to pike. If you can provide them I’d love to see evidence supporting their argument. I contacted someone I know has access to the Bremen account but have not heard back on it.
It is a development issue. Assuming a term represents the fully developed weapon just because the term is in use is very questionable. If they have a primary source that flat out states length to be 16-18 feet it would be settled but that is not what I am seeing here.
RPM
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Lets not argue about semantics. To me, a "long pike" is anything much over two men tall. The pikes in the Altichiero painting are about 2.5 men tall.RandallMoffett wrote:Sean,
I do not think any here are saying long pikes were not in use. It is questions on their assertion that they were 16-18 feet long. As I said not a one of the pikes in the painting is 16-18 feet long. They seem to rest this argument on those two secondary sources based on primary ones. So far a search of the primary sources for me has not turned up any specific pike lengths only terms associated to pike. If you can provide them I’d love to see evidence supporting their argument. I contacted someone I know has access to the Bremen account but have not heard back on it.
It is a development issue. Assuming a term represents the fully developed weapon just because the term is in use is very questionable. If they have a primary source that flat out states length to be 16-18 feet it would be settled but that is not what I am seeing here.
RPM
Having the text from 1327 only as paraphrased by a modern writer a bit problematic (although medievalists seem to cite things that way a lot because they have so many texts) but I would not call the edition of a document from 1390 a secondary source.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I am not by any stretch arguing semantics, at least not alone, but etymology and such has major bearing here. Terms and words have value in how they are used and why. These are not static but fluid in time and place. But I would agree with your statement that the long pike is anything two men tall or so. But that is not their statement but yours that it is over 2 men tall. They are trying to push this weapon to the English Civil War length pikes which I see limited to no support for, at 16-18 feet, that is well over the height of two men but 3 men. I would love to have evidence for this but to me the proof positive is lacking there. But sure I think 2 men tall, 10-12 feet would be reasonable. I think they are closer to 2 men tall in the painting, especially for an average, not 2.5. I used a ruler to give a ratio to look them over but it was hardly scientific. As I made clear above on several occasions I am sure they are using long pikes/spears in this period but the issue of how long is to me the main problem with their commentary putting it so long.
I have no problem with the one source if it is correct in how it is presented. I want to see the original account for what is being said in it and see how it is being used and transcribed. If it does say this it would be singular to my knowledge at this time which makes it very important but then also worth questioning to verify. As well it was done some time ago. I spent months going over documents translated in the turn of the last century and things change in 100 years in our understanding of terms, lengths and a plethora of things.
RPM
I have no problem with the one source if it is correct in how it is presented. I want to see the original account for what is being said in it and see how it is being used and transcribed. If it does say this it would be singular to my knowledge at this time which makes it very important but then also worth questioning to verify. As well it was done some time ago. I spent months going over documents translated in the turn of the last century and things change in 100 years in our understanding of terms, lengths and a plethora of things.
RPM
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Dan Howard
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
James VI, 5 March 1575
"Every noble man, sic as earl, lord, knight and baron, and every landed man having three hundred marks of yearly rent or above, be (en)armoured in harness, light or heavy as they please, and horses according to their honour and estate; and that all others of lower rent and degree have brigandines, jacks, steel helmets, sleeves of plate or mail, swords, pikes, or spears of six ells long..."
This text suggests that, at least in the 16th C, the Scots considered the long spear and pike to be different weapons. It would be nice to know how they differentiated them. Six ells is around 18.5 feet and seems to be a typical length of a Scottish long spear at the time, but it tells us nothing about the length of their pike. The artwork from several centuries earlier suggest that their spears/pikes were considerably shorter.
"Every noble man, sic as earl, lord, knight and baron, and every landed man having three hundred marks of yearly rent or above, be (en)armoured in harness, light or heavy as they please, and horses according to their honour and estate; and that all others of lower rent and degree have brigandines, jacks, steel helmets, sleeves of plate or mail, swords, pikes, or spears of six ells long..."
This text suggests that, at least in the 16th C, the Scots considered the long spear and pike to be different weapons. It would be nice to know how they differentiated them. Six ells is around 18.5 feet and seems to be a typical length of a Scottish long spear at the time, but it tells us nothing about the length of their pike. The artwork from several centuries earlier suggest that their spears/pikes were considerably shorter.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
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Matthew Amt
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Could it be that we're reading too much into that last comma? Could it be more like "sleeves of plate or mail" and therefore "pikes or spears of six ells long"? As if they don't really care if it's a pike or a spear, either? Grasping at straws, but I know the language can be ambiguous sometimes.Dan Howard wrote:James VI, 5 March 1575
"Every noble man, sic as earl, lord, knight and baron, and every landed man having three hundred marks of yearly rent or above, be (en)armoured in harness, light or heavy as they please, and horses according to their honour and estate; and that all others of lower rent and degree have brigandines, jacks, steel helmets, sleeves of plate or mail, swords, pikes, or spears of six ells long..."
This text suggests that, at least in the 16th C, the Scots considered the long spear and pike to be different weapons. It would be nice to know how they differentiated them. Six ells is around 18.5 feet and seems to be a typical length of a Scottish long spear at the time, but it tells us nothing about the length of their pike. The artwork from several centuries earlier suggest that their spears/pikes were considerably shorter.
Matthew
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Dan Howard
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
It shows that they considered them to be two different weapons. I'd like to know how they differentiated between a pike and a 18-foot spear.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
It could be a matter of the head, with the spear having a cutting edge while the pike is quadrangular, only designed to prick.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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jamesedgarson
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I wonder if they also differentiate between a pike and a long spear by the functionality of pike 'teams', by this I mean the hook and stab teams; one man uses his pike to stab while another uses the hook on the backside of some pikes to pull the opponents weapons aside, much akin to how SCA spearmen will work in two person teams to trap and stab. This would be much more difficult if using a 'long spear'.
I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back this up, I'm merely putting forth a potential idea.
I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back this up, I'm merely putting forth a potential idea.
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Ernst,
I sort of mention that earlier as well. I think from the weapons I have seen lumped into the group pike could have room for such differences.
No evidence one way or the other besides multiple terms in use with unclear meanings.
RPM
I sort of mention that earlier as well. I think from the weapons I have seen lumped into the group pike could have room for such differences.
No evidence one way or the other besides multiple terms in use with unclear meanings.
RPM
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I do go by Morgan yes. I will probably swing by tomorrow and try to get the pike haft. Finally got my handgonne mounted onto something of a stock too. It is brass and has no moving parts which makes it distinctly 14th century but probably not good for Scotland. I actually intend both it and the pike to mainly be used in the 1470's, on the continent.
My experience with doing 8 foot halberd blocks with horses at reenactor training days was such that, I don't think 8 foot weapons would be long enough.
On the other hand I've experimented around with 16 foot pikes plenty of times and I think they are too long. So I am excited to get a 12 footer and compare.
My experience with doing 8 foot halberd blocks with horses at reenactor training days was such that, I don't think 8 foot weapons would be long enough.
On the other hand I've experimented around with 16 foot pikes plenty of times and I think they are too long. So I am excited to get a 12 footer and compare.
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Morgan,
Interesting perspective on the length of the pikes. I would be interested to hear how the 12 foot pike handles as well.
When you get some photos of the handgonne I'd like to see them. I cannot recall the first mention of firearms in Scotland but I suspect you are correct.
RPM
Interesting perspective on the length of the pikes. I would be interested to hear how the 12 foot pike handles as well.
When you get some photos of the handgonne I'd like to see them. I cannot recall the first mention of firearms in Scotland but I suspect you are correct.
RPM
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Although Bertus' thread deals with 14th century Flemish pike usage, it contains information which might be applicable.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=182364
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=182364
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Bertus Brokamp
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Ha I totally missed out on this conversation, what with you guys reviewing my blog posts.
You have my thanks for being critical.
Yes the main sources for the pike length are the ones from Turin, Bremen and the Italian wallpainting.
Frustratingly the source for the Turin one is not mentioned in the Waffen & Kostumkunde article. But since this is a blogpost and since the Hafted Weapons book by Brill uses it as well, I thought it okay to mention it. Maybe Sean could find out, since he is more at home in Italians sources?
The Bremen one can be found here (5th line from the bottom: 'peck van zesteyn voten unde kortere nicht'):
https://archive.org/stream/Bremisches_u ... 5/mode/2up
Randall, if you can obtain a scan of the original document to see if the transcription was correct, that would be marvelous.
You have my thanks for being critical.
Yes the main sources for the pike length are the ones from Turin, Bremen and the Italian wallpainting.
Frustratingly the source for the Turin one is not mentioned in the Waffen & Kostumkunde article. But since this is a blogpost and since the Hafted Weapons book by Brill uses it as well, I thought it okay to mention it. Maybe Sean could find out, since he is more at home in Italians sources?
The Bremen one can be found here (5th line from the bottom: 'peck van zesteyn voten unde kortere nicht'):
https://archive.org/stream/Bremisches_u ... 5/mode/2up
Randall, if you can obtain a scan of the original document to see if the transcription was correct, that would be marvelous.
Bertus Brokamp
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Bertus, I could try one day, but I am busy with personal issues, work, and my tailoring project right now. An Austrian reenactment site gives the full citation as Hans Müller-Hickler, "Studien über den langen Spieß," Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde 4 (1906/08) pages 295 and following.
Have fun at Wisby, hope you have a stabbing good time.
Have fun at Wisby, hope you have a stabbing good time.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Bertus Brokamp
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Thanks Sean. Understood.Sean M wrote:Bertus, I could try one day, but I am busy with personal issues, work, and my tailoring project right now. An Austrian reenactment site gives the full citation as Hans Müller-Hickler, "Studien über den langen Spieß," Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde 4 (1906/08) pages 295 and following.
Have fun at Wisby, hope you have a stabbing good time.
Yeah that is the article I got the 18 feet from (Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde is the predecessor to Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen & Kostümkunde, my bad). But author Hans Müller-Hickler does not cite any source when he says they were 18 feet in Turin in 1327. Nor does it say so when stated on p. 95 of Waldman's book on Hafted Weapons (though I suspect he used Hans Müller-Hickler's article for that).
Bertus Brokamp
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Then I have a bad feeling that the only answer would be to visit the archivio di stato di Torino and start reading. Like you said with Wendelin Bohemin, trusting scholars from that generation without checking their source can get you into trouble, and they did not always give enough citations to let you see what they based their statements on.Bertus Brokamp wrote:Thanks Sean. Understood.
Yeah that is the article I got the 18 feet from (Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde is the predecessor to Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen & Kostümkunde, my bad). But author Hans Müller-Hickler does not cite any source when he says they were 18 feet in Turin in 1327. Nor does it say so when stated on p. 95 of Waldman's book on Hafted Weapons (though I suspect he used Hans Müller-Hickler's article for that).
If you find the right folder, it may well have scraps of hundred-year-old German notepaper between the pages or a ticket "reservato per Professore Mueller-Hickler" written with a fountain pen.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Bertus,
I had hoped you might join the conversation. I have had little luck yet but will for sure send you a copy if I get it. I was relying on the same person for translation of it so multiple eyes will give a more solid translation.
I had worried that most of these scholars simply drew the lines to 18 feet from what I was seeing but who knows. Perhaps the Turin account will have it.
The 19th and early 20th century scholars were trailblazers but sometimes their trails went to some odd places.
Sean,
You take care of yourself. We can wait to know how long a pike is.
RPM
I had hoped you might join the conversation. I have had little luck yet but will for sure send you a copy if I get it. I was relying on the same person for translation of it so multiple eyes will give a more solid translation.
I had worried that most of these scholars simply drew the lines to 18 feet from what I was seeing but who knows. Perhaps the Turin account will have it.
The 19th and early 20th century scholars were trailblazers but sometimes their trails went to some odd places.
Sean,
You take care of yourself. We can wait to know how long a pike is.
RPM
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Thanks Randall. I have been posting here to distract myself from some bad news back in Canada.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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J. Morgan Kuberry
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
I did buy the 12 foot haft, and a spearhead to go on it. It fits together perfectly without me having to do anything! I will let you know how it handles at events. I will try and get pics of the handgonne up too, it is now mounted on its temporary stock until my friend (who is a much better woodworker than I) makes the real one.
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RandallMoffett
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Well this came up on the My Armoury Forum. At least by the end of the medieval period we have something pretty clear. Here is what I included in my post from the Scottish Parl. Rolls
Item, it is thocht expedient that na merchandis brynge speris in this realme out of ony uthir cuntre bot gif thai susten sex elne and of a clyft, na at na bowar within the realme mak ony speris bot gif thai conten the said lyntht, [and] quha that dois in the contrare that the speris be eschetit and the persones punyst at the kingis wil. Alsua that ilk yeman that cam nocht deil witht the bow that he haf a gud ax and a targe of leddyr to resist the schot of Ingland, quhilk is na cost bot the valew of a hide. And that ilk schiref, stewart, bailye and uthir officiare mak wapynschawing within the bondis of thar office eftir the tenor of the act of parliament, swa that in defawt of the said wapinschawyne our soverane lordis leigis be nocht destitut of harnes quhen thai haf neid, and at the futbal and golf be abusit in tym cummynge, and the buttis maid up and schot usit eftir the tenor of the act of parlyament.
Item, it is thought expedient that no merchants bring spears into this realm from any other country unless they reach six ells and are of a [single] cleft, nor that any bow-maker within the realm make any spears unless they are of the said length, and if anyone disobeys this the spears shall be confiscated and the persons punished at the king's will. Also that each yeoman who cannot handle a bow should have a good axe and a targe of leather to resist the shot of England, which is of no cost but the value of a hide. And that each sheriff, steward, bailie and other officer hold a wappenschaw within the bounds of their office according to the tenor of the act of parliament, so that in default of the said wappenschaw our sovereign lord's lieges will not be bereft of harness when it is needed, and that football and golf be discontinued in the future, and butts made up and shot used according to the tenor of the act of parliament.
http://www.rps.ac.uk/
It is listed as 1471/5/6
It is an interesting account. Some things to consider. The Scot inch is not the same as a modern inch. I do not know off the top of my head if it is larger or smaller. I suspect smaller but if it were I'd bet that it would still be pretty close to what you are saying. Good find indeed.
Found it!
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1663/6/81
Hard to say for sure but looks like this is a pretty solid account for late period. As the false inch is likely what nongovernment officials use I suspect they would use the 1/37 for an ell.
RPM
Item, it is thocht expedient that na merchandis brynge speris in this realme out of ony uthir cuntre bot gif thai susten sex elne and of a clyft, na at na bowar within the realme mak ony speris bot gif thai conten the said lyntht, [and] quha that dois in the contrare that the speris be eschetit and the persones punyst at the kingis wil. Alsua that ilk yeman that cam nocht deil witht the bow that he haf a gud ax and a targe of leddyr to resist the schot of Ingland, quhilk is na cost bot the valew of a hide. And that ilk schiref, stewart, bailye and uthir officiare mak wapynschawing within the bondis of thar office eftir the tenor of the act of parliament, swa that in defawt of the said wapinschawyne our soverane lordis leigis be nocht destitut of harnes quhen thai haf neid, and at the futbal and golf be abusit in tym cummynge, and the buttis maid up and schot usit eftir the tenor of the act of parlyament.
Item, it is thought expedient that no merchants bring spears into this realm from any other country unless they reach six ells and are of a [single] cleft, nor that any bow-maker within the realm make any spears unless they are of the said length, and if anyone disobeys this the spears shall be confiscated and the persons punished at the king's will. Also that each yeoman who cannot handle a bow should have a good axe and a targe of leather to resist the shot of England, which is of no cost but the value of a hide. And that each sheriff, steward, bailie and other officer hold a wappenschaw within the bounds of their office according to the tenor of the act of parliament, so that in default of the said wappenschaw our sovereign lord's lieges will not be bereft of harness when it is needed, and that football and golf be discontinued in the future, and butts made up and shot used according to the tenor of the act of parliament.
http://www.rps.ac.uk/
It is listed as 1471/5/6
It is an interesting account. Some things to consider. The Scot inch is not the same as a modern inch. I do not know off the top of my head if it is larger or smaller. I suspect smaller but if it were I'd bet that it would still be pretty close to what you are saying. Good find indeed.
Found it!
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1663/6/81
Hard to say for sure but looks like this is a pretty solid account for late period. As the false inch is likely what nongovernment officials use I suspect they would use the 1/37 for an ell.
RPM
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jamesedgarson
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Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
Speaking of a 14th century Scot.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38242781
I'm hoping the link works. If it doesn't, the article pertains to the digital reconstruction of Robert the Bruce's visage (or as near as may be hoped). All representations of the Bruce have come from artists imaginations. There are no contemporary composites of what he actually looked like from his day. This project is the result of a two year program by the University of Glasgow and Liverpool's John Moores University. It is by Ken MacDonald, Science Correspondent for the BBC.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38242781
I'm hoping the link works. If it doesn't, the article pertains to the digital reconstruction of Robert the Bruce's visage (or as near as may be hoped). All representations of the Bruce have come from artists imaginations. There are no contemporary composites of what he actually looked like from his day. This project is the result of a two year program by the University of Glasgow and Liverpool's John Moores University. It is by Ken MacDonald, Science Correspondent for the BBC.
Re: I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT
That is really, really cool.