I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

Post by JT » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:40 pm

As a result of... http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=43158

For the practicalities of doing it properly and becoming a Landowner, See Brennus' Thread

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:54 pm

So....

You've just seen Braveheart for the First (or Fifteenth ) time and
you are now inspired to make your LH, LARP, SCA , Reenactment persona a 14th century SCOT!

Where to begin? Where to find a kilt?

Where to find a cool leather COP like Mel's?

Where to get blue paint that won't come off unless you want
it to come off? Where do you get that cool sword???

Well first... before spending a single dime do some research about
Scotland in the late 1200- early 1300 and you will quickly find out the
following:

No Kilts... zip, zilch, zero, nada... not until the mid 1500's.

Leather covered COP... Nope, not a form of Scottish armour at all.

Blue Paint... Not since the Romans first met the Picts... What's a
thousand years between friends...

The Big Two handed Claymore... more of a 16 century sword... Think war
sword... hand and a half. (With only the wealthiest and their best
warriors having one.)

Scotland was a land of 3 subcultures getting ready to split into a 4th
culture with the onset of the Scottish Wars of independence. The 3
Cultures were:

The Lowland Scots (Spoke a Offshoot of early English/with a touch of Gaelic)

The Highland Scots (Spoke Gaelic )

The Men Of the Isles ( A mix of Norse/Gaelic Culture)

(The Fourth culture was going to form from those Lowlanders living on
the borders of Scotland and England as a result of hundreds of years of
death and destruction on their doorsteps... they were poised to become
the Border Reivers... they just didn't what was in store for them yet at
the turn of the 1200's)

So what did Scots wear in 1300 you ask? Simple answer... it depended
were they were from with the three cultures of Scotland.

Lowland Scots wore clothing just like those in England and France...
Tunics, Braies, hose, turnshoes... women wore the same clothing as
French and English women... No Tartan! They had stripes, checks,
herringbones wools but no know complex tartans until the end of the 1400's.

Here is a group of Lowland men pictured below:

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/basic.jpg[/img]

When serving as part time soldiers (Scotland never had a full time national army) for either the King or their own Lairds Lowland Scots would dress in the following fashion:

Most foot soldiers would have worn a padded aketon body protection and some form of kettle or pot helm on their heads. They were armed with an assortment of polearms and would carry various side arms. Some have been depicted carrying small heater shields, targets (medium round shields of about 2.5 ft diameter), bucklers and pavaises for crossbowmen.

The more experienced veterans may also have been lucky enough to have acquired mail shirts, coifs etc.

Archers could be armoured similarly although many were also unarmoured.

The Cross of St. Andrew became the mark of a Scottish soldier in the field but it was not used until 1385 when it was required by law to be worn over the left breast.
Below is a standard Scottish footsolder:

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/Foot%20Soldier.jpg[/img]

A Scottish Knight dressed like his English or Continental counterpart and was similarly armed. He was behind in the evolution of mail to plate so while simple armoured surcoats were not unknown... mail was the standard armour of the Scottish Knight and a well to do Man at Arms.
A poorer Man at arms could find himself protected by a aketon with secondary mail items... standard, skirt, leggings, etc.

Below is a standard Scottish Knight:

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/knight.jpg[/img]

A Highland Chief or a Galloglass of the Isles wore a distinctive leather covered aketon called a cotun. They would wear a visorless bascinet and mail coif or aventail. They might have a Hauberk over a lighter aketon instead of a stout cotun. Broadswords, spears and two-handed Danish style axes are common weapons of this class of warrior.

The lower class higlander wore a "odd" large, hooded poncho style garment probably made of wool or heavy linen. Under this would be worn a linen shirt and in some cases braies and hose . Many contemporary manuscript sources state that many Highland and Isle troops of all classes went bare legged.

Colours used in Highland clothing were Russets, Browns, Green, Grey, Ochre Yellow.

Any armour worn is by a Clansman was covered by the large outer garment but manuscripts tell us of cotuns, mail and shirts of deer skin or pitched linen worn under the outer garment. The Highlanders mainly used a small round buckler with a center boss and handgrip (like a small Norse shield.) Heater shields are not unknown, just less common.

The Highland fashions followed those in Ireland until the early 1500's.

Below is what the Highlanders and Men of the Isles look like:

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/Highlander.jpg[/img]

So....You've just seen Braveheart for the First (or Fifteenth) time and you are now inspired to make your LH, LARP, SCA , Reenactment persona a 14th century SCOT! And you just found out MEL lied! So what are you going to do?

The most common form of iron armour was mail... the most common form of armour was a quilted cloth garment...

Scotland was a poor country... She had a small population base, all arms and armour had to be imported, she had little iron, small exports... Her people were know to be out of style with fashions, arms and armour, sometimes by 50 or more years... yet Scotland held England at bay for 400 years... and sent thousands of her warriors abroad as professional soldiers at the same time

When you're a historic Scottish persona you won't have the nicest gear, clothes, or weapons at a event (even as a noble)... THEY never did! But... you will be recreating a very special group of people... the Scots!

Yours Aye,

David Teague

Art work is linked from the Scottish Living History Group GADDGEDLAR along with use of some of the above text. Pleave visit their site:http://www.gaddgedlar.com/

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:37 pm

Wil,

You got a date on the carving on that tomb???

I've seen a statue of William Wallace dressed just like Mel from the movie in Scotland...

Here's the scoop on the tomb of The Bruce

But it is King Robert I (The Bruce) who is commemorated most in recent times at Dunfermline Abbey with the words "King Robert the Bruce" carved round the central tower. This was built in the early 19th century after the original tower fell in a violent storm. During restoration work, human remains considered to be those of King Robert the Bruce were found and reburied in a position later occupied by the pulpit. There is a commemorative plaque and spotlights marking the spot. At his request, King Robert's heart was taken on a Crusade by James Douglas. In a fight against the Moors in Spain, Douglas was killed and the embalmed heart was returned to Scotland. It was buried in Melrose Abbey.

It not his first tomb...

Cheers,

David Teague

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:39 pm

Duncanthemonster wrote:Tell us more about the Reivers!!!

Sorry, you will have to wait... this isn't "I wana be a 16th Century Border Reiver" :wink:

Until then enjoy one of the best sites for outfits, armour and a hint of the history that I know of...

http://www.theborderers.info/

and dont forget the foot louns

Eat your heart out, laddie...

Duncanthemonster · Post by **Duncanthemonster** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:16 am

David Teague wrote:
Duncanthemonster wrote:Tell us more about the Reivers!!!
Sorry, you will have to wait... this isn't "I wana be a 16th Century Border Reiver"
<Snipped>
Eat your heart out, laddie...

I was really wondering iffin the reivers had any presence at all in either the 14th and 15th cent.
I know(or at lest have read many places) that they reached their height in the 16th...but I am wondering if there is any evidence of them in the 14th~15th at all.
A qoute from the site you pointed to(which is one of my favs BTW)...
"From the late 13th Century, growing in intensity, until its zenith in the 16th Century, these families habitually lived by feud, robbery, blackmail"
I am hoping for more info, or sources for it, about the early rievers. Most of what I can find is 16th cent.
Iffin it's out there I figured you would be a good person to ask.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:39 am

Well there were certianly brigands.

Wheathere they are "reivers" is a different question.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

Wil, If you want evidence for early great swords in Scotland the effigial stones at Foveran show two such swords.
The effigies are dated to around 1411. This takes them slightly out of the 14th century but not by much.

There are also a few written accounts of the use of two handed swords in 14th century Scotland . One such is Froissart

"Sir Archibald Douglas was a good knight, and much feared by his enemies: when near to the English, he dismounted, and wielded before him an immense sword, whose blade was two ells long, which scarcely another could have lifted from the ground, but he found no difficulty in handling it, and gave such terrible strokes, that all on whom they fell were struck to the ground; and there were none so hardy among the English able to withstand his blows."

I think 2 ells are between 6 and 7 feet. Now even owing that Froissart may have been exaggerating thats still a big sword. Back to top

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:56 am

Brennus wrote:Wil, I found one of those written accounts. I knew Froissart would not let me down.

"Sir Archibald Douglas was a good knight, and much feared by his enemies: when near to the English, he dismounted, and wielded before him an immense sword, whose blade was two ells long, which scarcely another could have lifted from the ground, but he found no difficulty in handling it, and gave such terrible strokes, that all on whom they fell were struck to the ground; and there were none so hardy among the English able to withstand his blows."

I think 2 ells are between 6 and 7 feet. Now even owing that Froissart may have been exaggerating thats still a big sword.

A quick google search found this
"ELL
An obsolete unit of length.
Find a convenient male adult of roughly average size. Measure the distance from his shoulder to his wrist. You should find that it is about 22Ã¢â‚¬â€œ23 inches (56Ã¢â‚¬â€œ58 cm). ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the oldest ways to define an ell, once the usual measure in large parts of Europe for textiles such as woollen cloth. It was considered to be roughly equal to six hand-breadthsÃ¢â‚¬â€

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:32 am

Interesting stuff Brennus, thanks very much. Google search revealed this page:

http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/mel ... ille_2.htm

Though the images are a bit unclear.

~Wil

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm

B, Kenny is pretty much hitting on one prob. Medieval measurements (like hands, feet and eels) were not truly standard measurements. That and Froissiart does tend to exaggerate just a hair.

IMO the weapon is likely a standard 5 ft or so war sword, maye a bit bigger than average but likely not the SCA 6ft greatsword.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:31 pm

I have to believe that the sword would have been larger than average or Froissart would probably have not commented on it at all. He was present for many battles and reported on many more. The foveran Swords according to the page Wil posted are around five feet but the difference between them and the common war sword is that they are true two handed weapons.

After reading the page Wil provided I think I may have an answer to where a large two handed sword originated. The Douglas' had been hiring themselves out to Germans as mercenaries during the 14th century. According to the article the German's were using true two handed swords by then. I would have to do a little more research but we may be able to find a link between the German swords and these instances of Two handed swords used by Scots.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:55 pm

Probably is a link due to maybe merc traveling between the 2 groups ??????

I have a copy of a German 2 hander from about 1420. It's not much longer than a "war sword" but definately has crossed into the 2 hander relm, though it's definately not a Zewienhander.

Possibly this particular sword is one of the earlier ones in Scotland? I agree it defiantely had to be different to merit mention.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:01 pm

Hello All,

You guys sure got wound up over:

"The Big Two handed Claymore... more of a 16 century sword... Think war sword... hand and a half. (With only the wealthiest and their best
warriors having one.)

My Del Tin late 13th Century War sword quite large with a 4 ft blade and meant to be used with either one or two hands... it dwarfs my short sword of the same era... and in turn it's dwarfed by my claidheamh da laimh (2 handed great sword or claymore to you English speaking folks) that is a copy of one from the 16th Century.

Wil, If you want evidence for early great swords in Scotland the effigial stones at Foveran show two such swords.
The effigies are dated to around 1411. This takes them slightly out of the 14th century but not by much.

Brennus,

I know the title of this post is "I wana be a 14th Century Scot" but the true focus of the post was the late 1200's- early 1300's around the time of The Wallace and The Bruce.

Swords, clothing and armour went though some major changes during the 100 year span that you so quicky glossed over.

By 1411 lowland Scots were wearing codpiece hose and pointing them to their doublets just like the rest of Europe. Sword blades were not made in Scotland, but imported from Europe and hilted in the Scottish style in Scotland.

Other than when King James the IV built a temporary armoury in early 1500 to build armour for an invasion of England (The disastrous Battle of Flodden Field in 1513) all arms and armour had to be imported from friendly countries... i.e. to have big swords meant everybody else had to have them at them same time.

I'm not saying that some Scots didn't have big swords just that they were war swords... just not the true claidheamh da laimh of the 1500's at the start of the 14 Century.

I hope this clears things up.

Cheers,

David Teague

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm

Hello All,

It seems we were all posting with in a few minutes of each other.

Brennus wrote:I have to believe that the sword would have been larger than average or Froissart would probably have not commented on it at all. He was present for many battles and reported on many more. The foveran Swords according to the page Wil posted are around five feet but the difference between them and the common war sword is that they are true two handed weapons.

Correct me if I wrong but a 2 handed sword is not automatically a Great Sword, but can be a later long sword i.e still light enough to be used with one hand or if dismounted with 2.

Brennus wrote:After reading the page Wil provided I think I may have an answer to where a large two handed sword originated. The Douglas' had been hiring themselves out to Germans as mercenaries during the 14th century.

Please don't forget, it was the Battle of Bannockburn - 1314 that made the Scottish Soldier a hot item in Europe...

Brennus wrote:According to the article the German's were using true two handed swords by then. I would have to do a little more research but we may be able to find a link between the German swords and these instances of Two handed swords used by Scots.

Please see "all arms and armour had to be imported from friendly countries... i.e. to have big swords meant everybody else had to have them at them same time. The German states just happen to be one of the largest exporters of blades and armour to Scotland in the Middle Ages... there is your link.

Cheers,

David Teague

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Yes but my focus as a reenactor is a 14th century scot of the 1380-1390 time frame. Wil asked a question about the two handed sword in Scotland and I endeavored to show him the origin of the weapon in Scotland. I don't think I glossed over the first 50-70 years of the 14th century those years just aren't the focus of where these swords originated.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:46 pm

David Teague wrote:Hello All,

Please see "all arms and armour had to be imported from friendly countries... i.e. to have big swords meant everybody else had to have them at them same time. The German states just happen to be one of the largest exporters of blades and armour to Scotland in the Middle Ages... there is your link.

Cheers,

David Teague

However I would like to find a more substantial link than, "all arms and armour had to be imported from friendly countries". I would like to find a primary resource that say such and such recieved this sword from a German etc etc. That way I can definatively tell someone that the origin of the two handed Sword in Scotland was Scottish mercenaries in Germany. Sort of increasing my knowledge to pass along to others.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:51 pm

David Teague wrote:Correct me if I wrong but a 2 handed sword is not automatically a Great Sword, but can be a later war sword i.e still light enough to be used with one hand or if dismounted with 2.
Cheers,

David Teague

There is marked difference in the feel and handling of a true two handed "Great Sword" and that of a hand and a half war sword. It has to do with pommel weight, and hilt construction more than simply blade size.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:45 pm

Brennus wrote:
David Teague wrote:Correct me if I wrong but a 2 handed sword is not automatically a Great Sword, but can be a later war sword i.e still light enough to be used with one hand or if dismounted with 2.
Cheers,

David Teague

There is marked difference in the feel and handling of a true two handed "Great Sword" and that of a hand and a half war sword. It has to do with pommel weight, and hilt construction more than simply blade size.

That's my point too. I use steel Great Swords, hand and a half, and 2 handed long swords as a WMA student (of the Johannes Liechtenauer school of defense).

Cheers,

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:11 pm

The article that Wil posted from the "Journal of Western Martial Arts" implys that one of the swords on the foveran effigies is a definately a two handed sword. This and primary accounts of two handed swords in Scotland allows for the existence of two handed swords late in 14th century Scotland. Thats sort of important to me and my recreation of a late 14th century lowland Scot.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:42 pm

Brennus wrote:The article that Wil posted from the "Journal of Western Martial Arts" implys that one of the swords on the foveran effigies is a definately a two handed sword. This and primary accounts of two handed swords in Scotland allows for the existence of two handed swords late in 14th century Scotland. Thats sort of important to me and my recreation of a late 14th century lowland Scot.

I'm sure you would be safe with a 2 handed longsword of the late 1300's... I use my 2 handed Great sword for my 1500's Highland Scot...

[img]http://www.alaskascottish.org/asc%20web%20art/founderDT.jpg[/img]

Cheers,

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:49 pm

Brennus wrote:
However I would like to find a more substantial link than, "all arms and armour had to be imported from friendly countries". I would like to find a primary resource that say such and such recieved this sword from a German etc etc. That way I can definatively tell someone that the origin of the two handed Sword in Scotland was Scottish mercenaries in Germany. Sort of increasing my knowledge to pass along to others.

Hello Brennus,

I've read of the import of blades from other countries from a number of SECONDARY sources over the last 10 years... I'm trying to track down a primary source or two for you. Lets see what I can come up with. :wink:

Now, are you reeacting as a Scot from the Battle of Otterburn by any chance?

One of the Douglas' men?

Cheers,

David Teague

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:19 pm

My area of interest is 1380-1400. Basically trying to recreate a Scot in the service of the French and Germans during this time. There is some information about scots in service in Europe at the time and while Otterburn is pretty much right in the middle of that period I havent given it much thought. However that would be a good resource for me. I generally wear german armor of the period.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/armour.jpg[/img]

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:18 pm

Hello Brennus,

Nice kit... :shock:

Are you reenacting as a Scottish Knight in service abroad?

Now I haven't studied the Scot abroad during this time frame, but I was under the impression that they weren't any better equiped than they
would be when in service in Scotland.

This is what I picture a well equiped Scottish Hobilar wearing in the field.

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/Photo's/15th%20Century/Optimised/15cmata3.jpg[/img]

and the 2 guys on the left being a standard foot soldier.

<a href="http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/PSFight4.jpg" target=_new><img src="http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/PSFight4.jpg" width=640 height=480></a>

Cheers,

David Teague

(Edit by JT to shrink the image. Click on it to see the fullsize version)

Duncanthemonster · Post by **Duncanthemonster** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:23 am

Murdock wrote:Well there were certianly brigands.

Wheathere they are "reivers" is a different question.

Agreed...when did the distiction become clear?
When does the brigand become the Reiver?
I doubt there is a definative answer to that, I am more wondering on
what the common understanding is...most folk only acknoledge the Reivers as existing in the 16th cent. What makes a Reiver?
The activites? The Family sturture? Some thing else all together?
I'm looking for some learning here....

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:32 am

I wrote a huge response to this and the archive hiccupped and ate it and I haven't been able to even get on the archive until now. I will retype it at some point.

Suffice to say there is less evidence for what Scottish armour was like right before the turn of the century. What I have seen from primary sources is that Scottish Armour worn by tourniers was no different than that of their continental counterparts.

Froissart comments on how well armoured the Douglas was at Otterburn and how his armour turned away every blow that struck him. I believe that often Scottish armour was lighter because of hit and run tactics employed in war against the English during the period.

Defiantly by the beginning of the 15th century funeral effigies are showing state of the art armour in fact the foveran effigies are a good example of this. The problem is there is a large amount of data on Scotland at the beginning of the 14th century but not near as much information on the end of the century. By the first half of the 15th century the Scots mercenaries were being given land in France in exchange for Scottish defense against the invading English. It is hard for me to believe that the Scots on the continent did not quickly pick up the armour and tactics of their continental counterparts.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:57 pm

Hello Brennus,

Brennus wrote:I wrote a huge response to this and the archive hiccupped and ate it and I haven't been able to even get on the archive until now. I will retype it at some point.

I'm sorry it got lost, I now type my stuff as a e-mail and save it as I go along for the very same reason... ( My PC ate the above post on the 14 Century Scot... I had to retype that... :shock:

I'll look forward to your post.
Now for your reading pleasure... the arms law of Scotland of 1429.

Acta Parliamentorum, Jacobi I
1429
11. Item, Be [th]e awy[ss] of the haill pliame[n]t it is statute and ordanit [th]at ilk man that may dispende yerly xx lib or at has jc lib in movabil gude[ss] that he be wele horsit & haill enarmyt as a ge[n]till ma[n] aucht to be. And v[th][er] sympillar of x lib of rent or 1 lib in gud[es] haif hat gorgeat or pesane with rerebrasar[es] vambrasar[es] & gluff[es] of plate brest plate pan[ss] & legsplent[es] at [th]e left or bett[er] gif him lik[es].

12. Item, [Th]at ilk yeman [th]at is xx lib in gud[es] haif a gude doublat of fence or ane habergeon ane yrn hat with bow and schefe suerde buklar & knyfe. And all v[th][er] yemen of x lib in gudes haif bow and schefe suerde and buklar and knyff And [th]e yema[n] [th]at is nane archer[es] na can no[t] deyll with bow sall haif a gude sou[er] hat for his hede & a doublat of fence with suerde & buklar & a gude ax or ell[es] a brogit staff.

13. Item, it is statute and ordanit [th]at ilk baron within hym self sall se & ordane his men to be bodyn as is befor writtyn Ande gif he na dois [th][i]s betuix [th][i]s & m[er]tyme[ss] [th]e [sh]ref sal rai[ss] of ilk [y]ema[n] [th]an not bodyn as is forsaid a wedd[er] ande of ilk gentil man ij wedd[er]is sa [th]at [th]ai be warnit of xl dais warnig at the first tyme Ande at the nixt tyme of xv dais warnig of ilk yema[n] not bodyn ij wedd[er]is and of ilk gentilman iiij wedd[er]is Ande at the third tyme of xv dais warnig of [th]e yema[n] iij wedd[er]is & of [th]e gentilman a mart and sua furth fra xv days to xv days quhil [th]ai be anis lauchfully bodyn.

14. Item it is statute [th]at ilk burge[ss] hafand 1 lib in gud[es] salbe hail enarmyt as a gentil man aucht to be Ande at the yema[n] of lawer degre ande burge[ss] of xx lib be bodyn with sou[er] hate & doublat habergeone suerd buklar bow schefe & knyfe Ande at he [th]at is na bowman haf a gude ax or wapyis of fens as is forsaide Ande [th]e balyeis sal ray[ss] [th]e payn in [th]e burgh gif it be no[t] kepit as is forsaide [th]at is to say ok ilk harnest man iiij [ss] at [th]e first warnyng at [th]e secund warnyng viij [ss] ande at [th]e thrid tym[e] a mark and fa furth quhil he be wele enarmyt Ane of ilk yema[n] at [th]e first tym[e] ij [ss] at [th]e next tynm iiij [ss] at [th]e thrid tym[e] viij [ss] asnde sa furth quhil he be wele enarmyt

As you can see your kit is at the top of the social standing... fine for a man of standing... a knight, noble, or of equal socal rank. Not a foot soldier.

Brennus wrote:Froissart comments on how well armoured the Douglas was at Otterburn and how his armour turned away every blow that struck him. I believe that often Scottish armour was lighter because of hit and run tactics employed in war against the English during the period.

Funny you should bring up Froissart as I had read his account before doing my prior post... and you might want to reread him as he said this in my English translation:

At the beginning the Englishmen were so strong that they recoiled back their enemies: then the earl Douglas, who was of great heart and high of enterprise, seeing his men recoil back, then to recover the place and to shew knightly valour he took his axe in both his hands, and entered so into the press that he made himself way in such wise, that none durst approach near him, and he was so well armed that he bare well off such strokes as he received. (5)

Thus he went ever forward like a hardy Hector, willing alone to conquer the field and to discomfit his enemies: but at last he was encountered with three spears all at once, the one strake him on the shoulder, the other on the breast and the stroke glinted own to his belly, and the third strake him in the thigh, and sore hurt with all three strokes, so that he was borne perforce to the earth and after that he could not be again relieved.

The Douglas died at Otterburn... I reenact as a scout sent ahead to Melrose Abby after the battle.

Brennus wrote:By the first half of the 15th century the Scots mercenaries were being given land in France in exchange for Scottish defense against the invading English. It is hard for me to believe that the Scots on the continent did not quickly pick up the armour and tactics of their continental counterparts.

First, was large land grants given to the common men or only the nobles and their captains?
Second... most continental counterparts of the era were wearing Jacks... pots or kettle hats and not a lot of plate... unless they were of the noble class.

Cheers,

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:38 pm

Im concerned with recreating a squire of the period. What footmen were wearing isn't much of a concern of mine.

Thats why mainly I am bringing up period accounts of tourneys and men of stature during war.

That is the quote I was thinking of

he was so well armed that he bare well off such strokes as he received

Froissart doesn't mean he was so well armed with weapons. Armed in this context is his armour bare off such strokes (of swords) but was not fully proof against spears which ultimately killed him.

The land grant of course were given to captains, knights, and squires.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:02 pm

Brennus wrote:Im concerned with recreating a squire of the period. What footmen were wearing isn't much of a concern of mine. Thats why mainly I am bringing up period accounts of tourneys and men of stature during war.

And here I'm talking us po folk with pikes and kettle hats... :wink:

Maybe you missed my question of "Are you reenacting as a Scottish Knight in service abroad? " I just wanted to make sure you were doing a knightly class impression and not a working stiff in the pike line.

Brennus wrote:That is the quote I was thinking of he was so well armed that he bare well off such strokes as he received
Froissart doesn't mean he was so well armed with weapons. Armed in this context is his armour bare off such strokes (of swords) but was not fully proof against spears which ultimately killed him.

Which implies only mail to me... I swear I've read some where that The Douglas was only wearing mail... I thought it was Froissart, but I was wrong... nor did I think that quote meant his axe instead of his armour... :roll:

Cheers,

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:38 pm

I think we got crossed up on the Knightly bit.

In any case back to Froissart

Later in that passage Froissart says one of the spears "glinted" off Douglas' chest and hit his stomach. To my mind glinted means glanced.

I would think it would be difficult for a spear to glance off of mail in that way. Unless The Earl was considerably fat in which case a spear may push downwards into his stomach, otherwise the mail would bunch as the spear moved across it and down. If he was wearing a breast plate or even a COP the spear has much more chance to glace downwards into his stomach.

If there was only a effigy we could know for certain.

The real problem is I have no way to get access to the National Atrchives of Scotland without going there. If only they would scan everything. Then we could answer alot of these questions because there are hundreds of lists of goods bought and sold during this period sitting in the archive.

J. Morgan Kuberry · Post by **J. Morgan Kuberry** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:08 am

Recently started a small group to represent men under the Earl of Moray at Bannockburn. We know about the armor etc. used (actually a bit over-armored, we lucked out on the acquisition of maille for cheap) but want to know about other stuff too. Tents and food are obvious things we need to know more about, anybody got good sources to reccomend? We carry dried peas and oatmeal, plus whatever we "find" along the way. Also, "character development" is a big issue. What sort of life background would scots infantry have had? Were Scottish shoes just like those found elsewhere? Is the "guerrilla" nature of Scottish warfare overstated? When I hear that from secondary sources, I think of people who lack baggage trains, etc. most of the time and we've thus streamlined our "camp" down to little more than we can carry, except for events where we are trying to impress the public. Are these even appropriate questions for an armor board?

J. Morgan Kuberry · Post by **J. Morgan Kuberry** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:14 pm

What publisher/edition to you guys reccomend for Froissart's Chronicles and what other options do I have for period sources? In "Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English Experience" (by Michael Prestwich I believe) I found lists of what foodstuffs Edward I ordered for his campaigns in Wales and Scotland. Would it be in any wise safe to use this at least partially to determine what foods we take with us? We're big on (three plus week old at time of consumption :sad:

) oat cakes or fresh ones made on a campfire. Dry grains and legumes supplemented by "foraged" vegetables and whatever cured meats we have on hand for soup if we have a pot and a fire. Cheese, butter, eggs, and fruit are occasional luxuries. Well, chese is not too uncommon, but its usually a very hard, sharp business like feta or somesuch because it travels well. We carry our stuff with us, not wanting to kill atmosphere with trips to the car, so thats another limitaion we face. Until we build a period wagon or get a pack mule, we'll only use what we can carry ourselves in one trip out of the parking area, even for Pennsic.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:43 pm

Food wise you pretty much have the same options as England in the period. The Scots also imported alot of French wines.

There are several good translations online of Froissart and he is actually one of the best sources for late 14th century. The penguin classic edition is fine to sit down and read. I use the online versions for research because I can quickly search it.

You also might want to look up information on the Scotichronicon

Also there are quite a few books about Scottish history that are online http://www.electricscotland.com/history/books.htm

J. Morgan Kuberry · Post by **J. Morgan Kuberry** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:24 pm

Thanks, I haven't been too lucky trying to find Froissart online but I'll keep trying. As for the imported wines, I'm not too sure we average folks would have regular access to them, thats the sort of thing I'm trying to figure out. Not just what existed in Scotland, but who had what. Same goes for food, tentage etc. Thanks again.

J. Morgan Kuberry · Post by **J. Morgan Kuberry** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Off beat questions again. What sort of things (asidee from his chunk of flint and steel hook) should my brother be carrying in our fire kit? Hay? Where can I get raw flax? Is car cloth used at this time? Next: What should I be carrying in our cloth mending kit? So far its snips, a bit of sinew, and I'm looking into the rest. Leather palm thimble. Nice long thorns for pins. Wooden or steel needles though? What source you recomend fo wool or linen thread?

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:41 pm

Hello J. Morgan,

You can buy flax and linen thread for fire kits from http://jas-townsend.com/ They are fine people to work with.

As for food in the field... are you noble class or a pike line person like me?

The poorer fork would not have the wealth to take fine goods like French wine in the field... ale maybe... but not wine (we are not taking the Knights and Nobles here... just us po folk).

Barley and oats are the main staples of the poor Scots along with parsnips and what we call rutabagas in the US... yum... yum... :wink:

They did not have flat oats like we use today... you can find Scottish Oats for sale in some health food stores... they are THE Scottish Oat and are not processed... just the stuff to make haggis!!! Yum, Yum!!!

Think little or no meat... NO POTATOES!!!! That's not until the 1700's. The Scottish and English armies were forced to forage when on long campaigns... so regional foods are ok for the time of the year...
That why the Borders suffered so much during the wars... if the Scots didn't burn the crops to deny the English food... the English burned them after taking what they wanted... one the reasons the Border Reivers came into being...

Steel needles are ok... as I believe is char cloth... unless you can come up with a Scottish dried fungus or such that is a fire starting mother... :wink:

I hope this helps!

Alba go Bra!

Cheers,

DT

I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

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