I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

It does not make us sick, but then again, my take on Froissart's writing was that these guys ate little or nothing but beef for days or weeks on end, which we don't do.

[Tom Dunbar]

Lindsay-
Got any pictures?
Morgan- you might want to try some good old South Carolina Barbecue sauce on that beef! (OK- it wouldn't be correct because it's not pork!)

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

Heck no Tom. BBQ saauce would use up valuable beer space in our limited carrying space. We do sometimes carry a small tin of salt and perhaps some pepper or ustard powder though and while anachronistic, it is quite good.

[Ingvarr]

good old South Carolina Barbecue sauce

Sorry but good barbeque sauce isn't made of mustard.

[RandallMoffett]

huh, what goes into good BBQ sauce. Last time we made some it made me cry so I guess we made it wrong....

RPM

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

"Sorry but good barbeque sauce isn't made of mustard."
Who said it was? Why apologize for such a fact anyways? Personally, when I go to a medieval reenactment, making good barbecue suace is not a priority, cause I'm at a friggin medieval reenactment. Although, mustard was relatively common stuff throughout much of europe, so we often carry a little bit of it (in dried powder form) at events. Now, wether its accurate or not for our particular personas is another issue, but its a heckuva lot closer than BBQ sauce

Its pretty impressive how off topic some threads can get in a short time

Back to 14th century stuff.... I got a ton of blank rings for making riveted maille at Pennsic (special thanks to Historic Enterprises) and need a supplier of solid rings. Unfortunately, all the ones listed on the AA say "Sorry, out of stock". Anybody know of another source? I know there used to be a parts company that made washers to spec online, as long as you ordered a few thousand. Anybody remeber who this may have been, or know of someone similar?

[RandallMoffett]

morgan,

I have been looking for the same thing. I will let you know if I find one if you let me know if you find one....

RPM

(I like BBQ sauce!!!!)

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

Its been slow here so I've been turning up a lot of my old internet haunts looking for such a supplier, to no avail. Forth Armory is still sold out of... basically everything....

Since the rings I got are 16 g. round wire with just the rivet junction flattnened/pierced, I really want to use half solid rings of an appropriate thickness to cut down on weight, but its looking like the stars are against me.

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

Hey Randall! I found 'em!

www.washersusa.com

I'm awaiting a quote for 10k mild steel washers 10 mm ID, 18 mm OD, 1 mm thick, which is, I guestimate, pretty close to an 18 g. 3/8 ID ring, after flattening.

[Ingvarr]

"Sorry but good barbeque sauce isn't made of mustard."
Who said it was?

Tom Dunbar, who I quoted did as far as I could tell. South Carolina barbeque sauce is mustard based and while it's not bad stuff, it's not barbeque sauce.

Why apologize for such a fact anyways?

I was appologizing not for the fact that good barbeque sauce isn't mustard based, but because in my experience I was disagreeing with the core beliefs of South Carolinians.

Personally, when I go to a medieval reenactment, making good barbecue suace is not a priority, cause I'm at a friggin medieval reenactment. Although, mustard was relatively common stuff throughout much of europe, so we often carry a little bit of it (in dried powder form) at events. Now, wether its accurate or not for our particular personas is another issue, but its a heckuva lot closer than BBQ sauce

I never said otherwise, nor did I in any way advise you to take, or otherwise consume barbeque sauce for any reason at all.

Its pretty impressive how off topic some threads can get in a short time

Isn't it though?

Back to 14th century stuff.... I got a ton of blank rings for making riveted maille at Pennsic (special thanks to Historic Enterprises) and need a supplier of solid rings. Unfortunately, all the ones listed on the AA say "Sorry, out of stock". Anybody know of another source? I know there used to be a parts company that made washers to spec online, as long as you ordered a few thousand. Anybody remeber who this may have been, or know of someone similar?[/quote]

[RandallMoffett]

Morgan,

Thanks! I willlook into them. Where did you get your open links? Do you have the special pliers? I was looking to get a pair but have not found anyone who still makes them either (slow going with a punch and hammer).

RPM

(I like BBQ sauce)

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

My open rings are 16 g. round wire with flattened round punched ends with pin rivets. I have a few thousand each of 5/16 ID and 3/8 ID, I think around 10,000 rings in all, so adding solid rings will not only lighten the items of maille but also make my rings go alot farther.

I got the rings from Historic Enterprises, who I cannot say enough good things about.

I too, lack tongs for riveting, not sure ANYONE is making them at this point, but I figure access to a drill press and a grinder should allow me to very easily make a pair that will work for pin rivets.

[Murdock]

"A Highland Chief or a Galloglass of the Isles wore a distinctive leather covered aketon called a cotun"


Any evidence of the cotun being used instead of mail with any plate armours??

I'm thiking of making one out of deer skin and weaing it under my breastplate.

Layered deerskin shell, one layer of batting, linen. I know i shoul have on more than my coat but i'm looking for something otherthan mail and the coutun is decidedly Scottish.

[Brennus]

http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf/Pa ... 5E0027897D


I would start here I havent done much research in this area but this looks like a good person to ask at any rate.

[Tradiuz]

At what point did the Kilt become common?

[David Teague]

First known written discription: late 1500's

First known art of the Kilt being worn 1598.

NO PROOF OF IT BEING USED PRIOR TO THE MID 1500'S!

Common by the early 1600's.

Here's the link to Kass McGann's great web page about it. Take time to read all of the Scottish info linked on the left side of her page.


link

[Tradiuz]

Wouldn't that put the kilt almost out of reach for the vast majority of the period the SCA envelopes? Why would kilts be so popular then as garb if they're almost out of period (barely in art before the 1600s)?

[David Teague]

Wouldn't that put the kilt almost out of reach for the vast majority of the period the SCA envelopes? Why would kilts be so popular then as garb if they're almost out of period (barely in art before the 1600s)?

Are you setting me up to say something really, really bad here?

Great kilts are nifty, I have 4 or so at home and 6 more to lend at my HRG events for those who don't have one... I love wearing my great kilt

for use in the 17th & 18th Century demos about Highland Scotland

.No short kilts are known of until the early 18th century.

All people wearing the short kilt or the great kilt for SCA/ Renfair/ or Living History for pre- 1550 are OOP! If they are wearing it as a Lowlander, Isle'sman, or Borderer they are just plain wrong... until the 19th Century when "everybody "started wearing the "modern" kilt as The form of Scottish National dress.


If they have uncovered documentation to show otherwise, cool... but up to date nobody has.

You might want to read the very first page of this thread.

Cheers,

DT

[David Teague]

Wouldn't that put the kilt almost out of reach for the vast majority of the period the SCA envelopes? Why would kilts be so popular then as garb if they're almost out of period (barely in art before the 1600s)?

You might want to read the very first page of this thread.

What the hell, it's buried 6 pages back... here we go again.

So....

You've just seen Braveheart for the First (or Fifteenth ) time and
you are now inspired to make your LH, LARP, SCA , Reenactment persona a 14th century SCOT!

Where to begin? Where to find a kilt?

Where to find a cool leather COP like Mel's?



Where to get blue paint that won't come off unless you want
it to come off? Where do you get that cool sword???

Well first... before spending a single dime do some research about
Scotland in the late 1200- early 1300 and you will quickly find out the
following:

No Kilts... zip, zilch, zero, nada... not until the mid 1500's.

Leather covered COP... Nope, not a form of Scottish armour at all.

Blue Paint... Not since the Romans first met the Picts... What's a
thousand years between friends...

The Big Two handed Claymore... more of a 16 century sword... Think war
sword... hand and a half. (With only the wealthiest and their best
warriors having one.)

Scotland was a land of 3 subcultures getting ready to split into a 4th
culture with the onset of the Scottish Wars of independence. The 3
Cultures were:

The Lowland Scots (Spoke a Offshoot of early English/with a touch of Gaelic)

The Highland Scots (Spoke Gaelic )

The Men Of the Isles ( A mix of Norse/Gaelic Culture)

(The Fourth culture was going to form from those Lowlanders living on
the borders of Scotland and England as a result of hundreds of years of
death and destruction on their doorsteps... they were poised to become
the Border Reivers... they just didn't what was in store for them yet at
the turn of the 1200's)

So what did Scots wear in 1300 you ask? Simple answer... it depended
were they were from with the three cultures of Scotland.

Lowland Scots wore clothing just like those in England and France...
Tunics, Braies, hose, turnshoes... women wore the same clothing as
French and English women... No Tartan! They had stripes, checks,
herringbones wools but no know complex tartans until the end of the 1400's.

Here is a group of Lowland men pictured below:



When serving as part time soldiers (Scotland never had a full time national army) for either the King or their own Lairds Lowland Scots would dress in the following fashion:

Most foot soldiers would have worn a padded aketon body protection and some form of kettle or pot helm on their heads. They were armed with an assortment of polearms and would carry various side arms. Some have been depicted carrying small heater shields, targets (medium round shields of about 2.5 ft diameter), bucklers and pavaises for crossbowmen.

The more experienced veterans may also have been lucky enough to have acquired mail shirts, coifs etc.

Archers could be armoured similarly although many were also unarmoured.

The Cross of St. Andrew became the mark of a Scottish soldier in the field but it was not used until 1385 when it was required by law to be worn over the left breast.
Below is a standard Scottish footsolder:




A Scottish Knight dressed like his English or Continental counterpart and was similarly armed. He was behind in the evolution of mail to plate so while simple armoured surcoats were not unknown... mail was the standard armour of the Scottish Knight and a well to do Man at Arms.
A poorer Man at arms could find himself protected by a aketon with secondary mail items... standard, skirt, leggings, etc.

Below is a standard Scottish Knight:



A Highland Chief or a Galloglass of the Isles wore a distinctive leather covered aketon called a cotun. They would wear a visorless bascinet and mail coif or aventail. They might have a Hauberk over a lighter aketon instead of a stout cotun. Broadswords, spears and two-handed Danish style axes are common weapons of this class of warrior.

The lower class higlander wore a "odd" large, hooded poncho style garment probably made of wool or heavy linen. Under this would be worn a linen shirt and in some cases braies and hose . Many contemporary manuscript sources state that many Highland and Isle troops of all classes went bare legged.

Colours used in Highland clothing were Russets, Browns, Green, Grey, Ochre Yellow.

Any armour worn is by a Clansman was covered by the large outer garment but manuscripts tell us of cotuns, mail and shirts of deer skin or pitched linen worn under the outer garment. The Highlanders mainly used a small round buckler with a center boss and handgrip (like a small Norse shield.) Heater shields are not unknown, just less common.

The Highland fashions followed those in Ireland until the early 1500's.

Below is what the Highlanders and Men of the Isles look like:



So....You've just seen Braveheart for the First (or Fifteenth) time and you are now inspired to make your LH, LARP, SCA , Reenactment persona a 14th century SCOT! And you just found out MEL lied! So what are you going to do?

The most common form of iron armour was mail... the most common form of armour was a quilted cloth garment...

Scotland was a poor country... She had a small population base, all arms and armour had to be imported, she had little iron, small exports... Her people were know to be out of style with fashions, arms and armour, sometimes by 50 or more years... yet Scotland held England at bay for 400 years... and sent thousands of her warriors abroad as professional soldiers at the same time

When you're a historic Scottish persona you won't have the nicest gear, clothes, or weapons at a event (even as a noble)... THEY never did! But... you will be recreating a very special group of people... the Scots!



Yours Aye,

David Teague

Art work is linked from the Scottish Living History Group GADDGEDLAR along with use of some of the above text. Pleave visit their site:http://www.gaddgedlar.com/

[Murdock]

"Why would kilts be so popular then as garb if they're almost out of period (barely in art before the 1600s)? "

why do so many people wear cavalry boots? Engeneer boots? sneakers? Sweat pants? goth stuff? bunnyfur bikin's? polyester tunics.....


ectectectectect


they do it cause everyone else does.

[Captain Jamie]

Wouldn't that put the kilt almost out of reach for the vast majority of the period the SCA envelopes? Why would kilts be so popular then as garb if they're almost out of period (barely in art before the 1600s)?

Because people don't know any better. There is quite a bit made up about the "ancientness of the kilt" by Victorians that wanted a bit of flamboyant dress. This has penetrated the conciousness of the great mass of people and is hard to displace because it is one of those things that "everybody knows". It isn't even questioned.

Slowly inroads are being made by people that want to see a more accurate recreation of Scottish peoples.

Captain Jamie (Scot in service to Charles VII of France)

[Tradiuz]

why do so many people wear cavalry boots? Engeneer boots? sneakers? Sweat pants? goth stuff? bunnyfur bikin's? polyester tunics.....

People wear non-period boots because they don't want to shell out $300 for period boots.

Sweat pants kinda fall under the same thing. I've seen Walmart sleeper pants with the bottoms cut off that looked good from 3 feet away. And at $5 they're a hell of a lot more affordable than $50.

Goth stuff, well goths are everywhere, and you just can't kill them, no matter how much sunlight you can shine on them.


Kilts are a whole different matter, they're reasonably expensive for a good one with all the parts you need to make the outfit work. The other stuff is used because the period alternative is expensive. Kilts are totally backwards!

[Murdock]

"People wear non-period boots because they don't want to shell out $300 for period boots."

No they wear $200 motorcycle boots because they don't wanna pay $80 for a set of low boots from Revival.

There are several medival shoe makers out there makeing shoes for WWwwaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy less than $300. Less than the biker boots too.

"Sweat pants kinda fall under the same thing. I've seen Walmart sleeper pants with the bottoms cut off that looked good from 3 feet away."

No they look like plaid pajama pants.

"And at $5 they're a hell of a lot more affordable than $50."

So don't buy "trews" from MRL get some fabric and make em. I can't sew worth a crap and i made a set of trews a llllooonnnggg time ago. Tore em to pieces fighting in em.

And a Yugo is cheaper then.... well than pretty much anything. It's still a piece of shit no matter how cheap.

"Goth stuff, well goths are everywhere, and you just can't kill them, no matter how much sunlight you can shine on them. "

Wooden stakes work....sourse that works on every one.


"Kilts are a whole different matter, they're reasonably expensive for a good one with all the parts you need to make the outfit work."

I know what ya mean, guy has on a $200 kilt but won't buy medieval shoes because their "too expensive" then buys a $300 claymore.



"The other stuff is used because the period alternative is expensive."

Compared to what?
Compare the SCA to sayyyyy bass fishing or golf or deer hunting.
You can get a LH outfit small tent and mess kit for probly about $1000 if ya shop well. (Thats with no armour)

Try getting started from scratch bass fising for that. $1000 doesn't even cover the boat.

Now newibies...they get a pass. But when a guy has been playing for 5...10....25 years. The sweats need to be LLlllllllllllloooonnnnnggg gone along with the biker boots. "He's" had pleanty of time. At that point "it's too expensive" is a BS cop out for being lazy and or not caring.

"Kilts are totally backwards!"

People get around that by wearing _very_ bad kilts. Flannel blanket tied around their waist with nikes.

[cristofre fortescu]

Here is a group of Lowland men pictured below:

[img]http://www.gaddgedlar.com/images/basic.jpg[/img]

So what exactly is going on with the two in the top left corner? Where is the right hand of the guy on the far left? Lowlander Scots don't need no stinking sheep.

C

[Murdock]

i think he's just holding the bow at a funny angle




i hope he's holding the bow

[Ingvarr]

"
Any evidence of the cotun being used instead of mail with any plate armours??

Based off the drawings posted here, and the rundown of who wore what in the other thread, it seems to all be padded cloth, mail over cloth, mail. I'm left wondering how prevalent plate was in Scotland to begin with.

[Murdock]

Well there seems to ba a bunch of it on effigies of lowlanders.

Plate looks just as prevelant of the Aristocricy of the lowlanders as it does of the Northen English.

The ARS journal has a great article in it.


Remeber it's the new pop culture that the Scots lived in a big medieval trailer park.

Wallace was charged with dressing way to nice amongst other thing.



My ancestors in Scotland were not mud covered fur wearing cave men during the middle ages as so often is depicted in movies like Highlander.

[Brennus]

Lowland Scot nobles certainly were wearing plate in the 14th century. I believe I posted a link to reciepts from German Armorers earlier in this thread.

[David Teague]

Lowland Scot nobles certainly were wearing plate in the 14th century. I believe I posted a link to reciepts from German Armorers earlier in this thread.

Yep, I think back in the mists of this long thread people keep forgeting a few things that have already been covered.

#1 NO Kilts.

#2 The 14th Century has 100 years in it.

#3 Those 100 years saw major changes in Knightly armour.

#4 Lowland Nobles dressed a lot like the English & French.

#5 The start to the thread was for those wanting to dress like a Scot
from The Wallace & The Bruce's time frame... which is the end of the late 13th century to about 1320... Lots of things changed by 1400.

It's far more helpful to pick a time, place, and which part of Scottisch culture you want to be for us to focus on whats right.

The armour worn by a Scottish knight at Stirling Bridge isn't going to look much like his Great Grand Son's armour at Otterburn.

[Brennus]

Im not sure this thread started only as the Wallace time period. The thread this one originated from had Murdock and I as posters and we are both portraying late 14th century squires. Or at least he was in late 14th the last time I checked.

[Ingvarr]

My ancestors in Scotland were not mud covered fur wearing cave men during the middle ages as so often is depicted in movies like Highlander.

I never meant to imply that was the case. 14th Century as a whole is pretty obscure to me on its own, much less any specific region during the 14th. I wasn't doubting that a Scot could or would be wearing plate, I was only wondering how common it was.

[David Teague]

Im not sure this thread started only as the Wallace time period. The thread this one originated from had Murdock and I as posters and we are both portraying late 14th century squires. Or at least he was in late 14th the last time I checked.

Armour: I want to be a...

I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

First post in this thread below:

As a result of... http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=43158

First post of that thread:

I have not seen many posts from this gentleman, but I believe he may be the missing link source on Scottish gear that this site has needed for many years. david, would you be interested in writing a Guide for the Scottish persona-type essay for this site, so that the endless repeating questions about Scottish Arms and Armour will finally disappear?

Since then.. in the last 7 pages we have covered lots of stuff which can be summed up as:

#1 NO Kilts.

#2 The 14th Century has 100 years in it.

#3 Those 100 years saw major changes in Knightly armour.

#4 Lowland Nobles dressed a lot like the English & French.

#5 The start to the thread was for those wanting to dress like a Scot
from The Wallace & The Bruce's time frame... which is the end of the late 13th century to about 1320... Lots of things changed by 1400.

Right back at ya.

P.S. Yes Lowland Nobles were wearing plate at the end of the 1400's.
Heck we know Highland nobles showed up at the battle of Kilcranke in 1698 in full plate... ... and they won that one.

[Brennus]

Oh well I guess we should make our own thread and be more specific with the title.

[Murdock]

"I never meant to imply that was the case. 14th Century as a whole is pretty obscure to me on its own, much less any specific region during the 14th. I wasn't doubting that a Scot could or would be wearing plate, I was only wondering how common it was. "


Didn't mean that as a snipe at you buddy. Sorry if it "sounded" that way.

[Alan Frize]

I'd like to get some more discussion on the types and use of weapons as well as tactics by the Scots in this general period. Hopefully we can get Lindsey and Dalloch (and others?) back into it from Scotland as well as our usual contributors, as well as fresh minds from over here. One of my questions has always been: How do you move one of these spear formations quickly (as apparently happened on day one at Bannockburn at least) without losing order and cohesion and becoming tasty treats for mounted men?

You ask the bloke from Lindsay's group who trains schiltrons is the quick answer!

The schiltrons at Bannockburn had, it must be remembered, trained for roughly a month in the use of the formation, but the basics of it are that when it is stationary, the unit is in a circular formation (as happened on the first day of the battle) but can move rapidly into a phalanx formation to move forward. Even in this formation they can see off cavalry - the whole formation is closely packed together with each of the first three ranks (in whichever direction it is being attacked from) able to hit the enemy.