I wanna be a 14TH CENTURY SCOT

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:34 pm

Tom Dunbar wrote:David/Brennus: I've spent the last couple of years trying to convince Scottish American groups that they should pay attention to the fact that we are in the middle of the 700th anniversary of the Scottish "Wars of Independance". I've taken to going to Scottish-Amer events in my rendering of a Scots spearman from the period. It seems however that if it doesn't involve blue paint, great kilts worn "regimental" and claymores, nobody's interested. The fact that if Bruce and Wallace (and the others) hadn't maintained Scotland's sovereignty there probably would'nt have been a Jacobite movement (no Stewart kings to inherit the English throne) doesn't register. I wish I could get enough people together so that folks at the Highland games could get the feel of what a "schiltrom" looked like. I still want to find out how they moved and didn't get broken up like some British squares at Quatre Bras and Waterloo.

Tom, the best thing to do with these groups is (if they won't listen) email their websites to me as part of my "Worst re-enactment group going" annual competition. Prize for finding the winning entry is a bottle of Moniac Mead!

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:56 pm

Tom i'd love to show up to a Highland games dressed as the REAL Wallace
Mail, red surcoat with white lion, great helm or early bascinet or Sir Andrew Murry and have all get super confused.

Poet shirt Scots must die!!!

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:16 pm

Murdock wrote:Tom i'd love to show up to a Highland games dressed as the REAL Wallace
Mail, red surcoat with white lion, great helm or early bascinet or Sir Andrew Murry and have all get super confused.

Poet shirt Scots must die!!!

Murdock, over here you should hear and see some of the reactions of members of the public when we don't turn up in kilts with blue painted faces waving swords about.

A Fuller · Post by **A Fuller** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:46 am

Oooohhhhh, love Moniack mead.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:41 am

But Alan your actually in Scotlamd aren't you?

That'd be like us getting mad if Rev war guys were'nt wearing cowboy hats.

Curse hollywood!!!!!!!

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:10 am

Murdock wrote:But Alan your actually in Scotlamd aren't you?

That'd be like us getting mad if Rev war guys were'nt wearing cowboy hats.

Curse hollywood!!!!!!!

Yes I do live here and yes, we do have the same problems. There are groups who will turn up to Medieval events in full Braveheart regalia - lousy kit complete with a lousy attitude to match. The most recent I saw was some idiot with not only the Braveheart attire, but also wearing Doc Marten boots!

Thankfully, more and more events are now being run by people who know what they're doing so we don't get the tartan hordes (should that be horrors?), but the problem is that what we do get is the public who think that Braveheart is how it actually was. As a re-enactor I can happily try to re-educate them on that one, but sadly there are some minds too closed to listen.

The tartan clad brigade over here also have the worst reputation for misbehving - from smoking in their kit in front of the public, to swearing (they seem to think that they have to swear a lot to promote the 'Wild Warrior' image they have of themselves.

) and really dangerous stuff like fighting with sharp weapons and fighting in areas where the public are rather than the roped-off arenas. Is it any wonder that they don't get invited to events any more?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:02 am

wow

Euro-genricelts

the virus has spread

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:43 pm

It has spread and mutated so much who knows if we can stop it now......

It is a sad, sad thing to see such goings on. I have seen some of the best living history (as well as participated with) here in the UK. It is always sad when the taint of hollywood seeps in.....

RPM

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:03 pm

Perhaps treating it as a zombie invasion would be best? See the zombie thread in off-topics.

Captain Jamie

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:33 pm

Captain Jamie wrote:Perhaps treating it as a zombie invasion would be best? See the zombie thread in off-topics.

Captain Jamie

You mean blow their brains out?

Actually, I could use them as walking targets, it would really bring home the weapons demonstrations that we do......

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:12 pm

Alan,

What ever happen regarding the swords laws in scotland?

RPM

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:50 am

RandallMoffett wrote:Alan,

What ever happen regarding the swords laws in scotland?

RPM

It's still trundling along, but I think that the First Minister was shocked by the level of opposition to it. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any political party backing the opposition, although I have been told that the SNP oppose it.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:16 pm

I thought I would show off my harness as it currently looks.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/pose.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/sun.JPG[/img]
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/pose2.JPG[/img]
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/b ... dation.JPG[/img]
Some new pics I took today as some things have changed the last is my foundation garments- brais, chausses, coif, st louis shirt. I put on my gambeson later you can just see it under the chain

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:47 pm

Looking good

All you need is a nice padded aventail liner so you aventail looks "right".

(and either a sleeveless surcoat in the English style or a quilted jupon
to cover all your upper body armour bling in the French style)

Cheers,

DT

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:16 pm

I agree about the aventail liner. I need one, have needed it for awhile.
While I have both a sleevless surcoat and an angelwing but I wanted the bling to show... I am also not sure about covering the breastplate. I sorta went with the german style in armour because of the sale of german armor could be traced to Scotland but also because I have seen illuminations in which they wear the breastplate on top to show the bling. I am conflicted about it.

What would a Scot do?

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:28 pm

I'm conflicted too... but since you protray a Scottish knight serving with the French... When in Rome, do as the Roman's do.

I have almost everything for a Harness from the mid 1300... I too am pushing the German export look... but the intent of this is for German Longsword training (Harnischfechten) but what the hey, might as well tweek it to be LH worthy as a lesser Scottish Knight.

I've seen the breastplate over the Jupon... but the effigy in question is wearing his Jousting harness... hmmm, maybe under for war, over for jousting bling?

Hmmm.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:50 pm

Scottish Squire

Yeah I could do what the French do but I was thinking that Scots often fought in pure Scottish units rather than mixed with French units.

Yes in fact The Knight was on horse back in the illumination I am thinking about so it may have been a tourney, I can't remember at the moment and I need to get some books out to look it up. It is sort of a cop out but I have a horrible ear infection and I can tolerate sitting at the internet but I think looking for a book and moving around would kill me.

I was able to take those pictures today because I got those gaunts in from the Moores and I was going to get pics with those on or die trying.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:36 pm

I'm nailing down my portrayal to the Douglas side of the Otterburn campaign, 1388.

From looking at the depictions of the troops i've accidentaly almost nailed the look. If i wear my George Feldbridge inspired surcoat (though he's the other side). I've got the braise hanging out, aping the English styles look pretty much down. I do need to repair my sabatons though.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:41 pm

I think I'm going for about ten years earlier. The rounded elbow wings seem to be a 1370's fashion and since I like them much better than my old spade wings I think I'll stick there.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:41 am

Yeah sans spaulders, espicaly if i don a pig face, that sets you more or less a decade earlier (or a social class down)

I'm trying to get far enough beyond the "material culture of an esquire" that i'm doiung at least Bachelor Knight. By the time i'm 35 the goal is to pull of a Knight of the Garter/ or equivelent social class.

If go as far in the next 4 years as i've gone in the last 4 i might just barely pull it off.

So i'm looking at who was in the Garter in the late 1380's.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:07 pm

Does anyone have a good pattern for an aventail liner?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:50 pm

Just make a cloth copy of the aventail

oversize it slightly and add a layer of cotton batting sew and trim

of course saying that

i have't done it either

I'd also add that the BP need the edges rolled

Something looks funky with the way the greaves and dimi greave meet.

Are those your old legs?

I'd also suppose that if you are rich enough to have all the rest you'd probly have full vams, but i know it's your SCA rig.

And in the land of the nkeed people your doing what you can to cut weight.

All in all i like the look, i've always like the sans spaulders look with the mail for some reason. But with mine as messed up as they are, i have to wear something there.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:08 am

And for some reason windows explorer will not let me post pictures the way Netscape did

hmmmm

I have a few i'd like to pull of SA but it taint working

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:19 am

I want to change the legs actually and I am going to do that after Christmas. These are fine but they don't work well with the Greaves. They will get chucked in the spare box and the leg stuff in the spare box will get sold.

I have never liked the full vambraces everytime I wear a pair they really feel weird and mess up the motion of my arm, Most of the time I dont wear any vambraces at all. I have spaulders I could wear but again a case of preferring to not wear them.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:05 am

Ya know what would look cool?

To do just mail on your arms, it's not like you need vams down there, long sleve haubergone.

Then do a hidden hard leather elbow laced to a rondel on the side of the elbow, iwth the rondel on the outside of the mail.

The Germans seems to do that a fiar bit and it would look spiff.

Get like a Master Knutt shirt or a light rivited shirt.

JMcBrayer · Post by **JMcBrayer** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:01 pm

I apologize for reviving a 2+ year old thread, but it seems the most appropriate place to put my questions.

I'm a newbie in the SCA and am looking to recreate a 1350 - 1375 lowland Scot (specifically from the area around Dumfriesshire). What I've been unable to find in my own research has been appropriate shield size and shape during this time period. If anyone can help me out, that'd be great.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:21 pm

Common or noble?

On foote or on horse?

JMcBrayer · Post by **JMcBrayer** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:07 am

Noble. I have no horsie.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:41 pm

JMcBrayer wrote:Noble. I have no horsie.

The use of the longsword (in two hands) while on foot and the rapid changes in armor during this time made the shields rather small.

I based mine off the following effigies.

Walter von Hohenklingen c.1386

Unknown knight, Tewkesbury Abbey c.1365

Sir Humphrey Littlebury c.1365

[img

[/img]

JMcBrayer · Post by **JMcBrayer** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:58 pm

Yikes. Those are teeny.

The one in the middle looks bigger and it appears to only be about the length of the torso.

Okay, thank you for your assistance. I appreciate it.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:42 pm

If you're doing this for SCA combat (which I have no practical experience with) you'll want to stick with the 'standard" sword & shield sizes.

From a historical standpoint, armour was quickly headed towards a full "white"harness by the late 1300's, negating the real need of the shield during war.

The foot combat of the knightly class had evolved from arming sword and shield at the start of the 1300's to the knightly longsword used with two hands sans shield.

Against a common unarmored foot solider the longsword would be used as a sword, against a fully armoured foe (fellow knight or man at arms) it would be wielded in a half sword grip and used like a spear or poleaxe. (Something I do have practical experience with as student and instructor of the German longsword of the late 14th century).

To settle legal disputes, knights would fight judicial duels to the death, they could be done with the longsword with no armour, or in armour with the longsword as a secondary weapon (Spear & sword, poleaxe & sword)

Here is a good pic of a demo of fighting the longsword with no armour.
(Doh... and my historical sized shield hanging from the tent pole on the right of the photo

)

Cheers,

DT

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:56 am

Something to keep in mind is that the shield gets larger the earlier you get in the 14th. By the late 14th they are quite small. You see them in use fairly common during the 15th but likely not very big. The closer you get to 1350 the more likely you will have a larger shield. My guess is more like the center imagine David put up.

By mid to late 14th you'd be in a mix of armours, mail, plate, leather and textile. I'd look at period effigies to get an idea.

RPM

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:34 am

It's also worth bearing in mind that Scottish warfare in the 14th century is, with the exception of some notable engagements, carried out by troops who were mobile. What would happen is that the soldiers would ride like hell to where the enemy were and then dismount and fight. Even if you don't have a horse, it's worth your while alluding to this when talking to people about your character.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:06 am

Alan Frize wrote:It's also worth bearing in mind that Scottish warfare in the 14th century is, with the exception of some notable engagements, carried out by troops who were mobile. What would happen is that the soldiers would ride like hell to where the enemy were and then dismount and fight. Even if you don't have a horse, it's worth your while alluding to this when talking to people about your character.

And that included the Scottish knights who fought dismounted with their men.

Cheers,

DT

P.S Hi Alan!

Alan Frize · Post by **Alan Frize** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:03 am

David, I got books by Chris Brown for Christmas, I think it's starting to show.....