I Wanna Be a 11th C. to mid-12th C. Norman

[Egfroth]

Crossbows in England?

I'm very much wanting to keep developing my portrayal of someone in Devon during the wars between Stephen and Matilda during the early-mid 12C. However, I'm wanting to use a crossbow for my target archery as my shoulder just can't take the strain of a more typical bow any more. Am I right out to lunch on this idea? I've bounced off a few comments online that Henry I had a number of crossbowmen but some of that may be coming from Payne-Gallwey, and I can't verify the sources.

Also, if that works would padded gambeon and a Norman conical be suitable with it?

Thanks!

Yes, crossbows in England date back to the Norman Conquest - William the Conqueror's chaplain, William of Poitiers, mentions their use at the Battle of Hastings, as does William of Malmesbury (whose evidence has to be taken with a pinch of salt as he hadn't been born when the battle happened, but on the other hand, he is an English resident familiar with crossbows in the 12th century). There is a mention of Hugo the arbalestier in the Domesday Book of 1086 as well as his son Odo in 1140 (see http://www.angelfire.com/fl/larbalestier/).

The evidence for gambesons as early as the Stephen/Matilda civil war is almost non-existent - it's very difficult to stretch them that far back with any certainty. Conical 'Norman' helmets were still in use. Crossbowmen shown in the late 12th century Liber adHonorem Augusti of Peter of Eboli (the guys in the bottom row) wear civilian clothes, but two of them are wearin g helmets. Note, by the way, how simple - even primitive - these crossbows are.

[William of Otterton]

That's a fascinating image Egfroth. Thank you for that. It helps a lot!

[Ernst]

You might also want to look in the Roda Bible, BNF Latin 6 (3), fo.144v, dated to 1051-1075.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9 ... 91.highres

[Egfroth]

Also a very nice image. I was familiar with that overall picture but had never noticed the crossbowman in it. Thanks for that.

[Michael B]

My SCA persona is an English Third Crusader (1190s), so I would have been wearing a gambeson, mail shirt, possibly mail chausses (leggings), and usually a conal helmet;

Looks good - I think the overall look would be great with the surcoat worn over the skirt of the separate coif (a pet issue).

[Owen Longstrider]

Well, the "coif" is really the aventail of my helmet (for Chivalric Combat), so it doesn't work well if I had it under the surcoat (tucking it back under each time I put my helmet on), but I understand; really my persona would have been wearing a shirt with the coif integrated into the collar so the surcoat would have gone over it; you just do the best you can, right?

[Michael B]

Well, the "coif" is really the aventail of my helmet (for Chivalric Combat), so it doesn't work well if I had it under the surcoat (tucking it back under each time I put my helmet on), but I understand; really my persona would have been wearing a shirt with the coif integrated into the collar so the surcoat would have gone over it; you just do the best you can, right?

Well, I wasn't going to mention that ...

Looking good!

[Edmund of Hertford]

Can anyone point me to documentation and pin down an appropriate era for a closed face/shovel faced round top helm. I see these in round top/spangen top/frigian top all the time, but I have not been able to find any effigies or images for them.

[Ernst]

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg112/0084
End of the 12th century, i.e. c. 1200.


http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5012/15623/
(Although Manuscript Miniatures follows Cambridge University's dating of 1250-1270, the armor images suggest something in the first quarter of the 13th century for the folios numbered with Roman numeration.)

Generally you're looking at a window of 1190-1225 for these early "masked" helmets. Most have Phrygian or fluted tall domes, but a few round tops appear. The flat tops with mask appear somewhat later, c. 1200-1225. Although many offerings are made with spangen-tops, no historical artwork supports this pairing with a face mask.

[Egfroth]

The attached pic is from a late 12th century mural in the french church of Vieux-Pouzages in the Vendee region. The faceplate is rather hard to interpret, but very interesting.

[Ernst]

See if we can find a better image? Apparently it's at a difficult height to photograph.
http://www.monnuage.fr/photos/point-d-i ... 040/472103
Most sources seem to call this early 13th century, though some hedge with end of the 12th, early 13th century assignment.

[TrimarianNormanTemplar]

currently putting together a 12th century Norman /Templar kit . I use hidden legs underneath fighting pants and bazubands under long sleeve tunics. my body harness isstainless lamellar which is nice sand very protective but I want to use chainmail. question I have is how protective is the chainmail for heavy combat. I will wear a padded cambeson underneath and a kidney belt but curious about the protective nature of it for sca heavy combat

[robstout]

I used to fight in butted mail, until the armor moths got to it. A gambeson was not enough. I had to add some plastic plates under the mail and over the gambeson to spread out the blows a bit more.

Robert The Stout

[Glen K]

You might also want to look in the Roda Bible, BNF Latin 6 (3), fo.144v, dated to 1051-1075.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9 ... 91.highres

That looks to me to be his thumb holding (or just having held) the bolt on the crossbow. No way that could be the earliest representation of the little metal bolt-holder-thingy.... right?

[TrimarianNormanTemplar]

my current kit consists of hidden splinted cuisses with wingless knee cops. both in kydex under a pair of striped fighting pants. i wear plastic bazubands , a shockdoctor 7 pad compression shirt and a kidney belt under a long sleeved linen under tunic with a short sleeved linen overtunic. ver this i wear a short sleeved hauberk of riveted chainmail thats knee length. i use an aesir metalworks semi custom Norman conical with welded chain aventail. i also use wool winnigas and period 2 toggle turnshoes with rubber soles for a complete period looking kit.

[SirSlaughter357]

So I'm looking to buy a maille hauberk for my late 11th century to early 12th century (1080-1120) man at arms kit i'm putting together and I'm wanting to know because i cant seem to find any mentions of what kind of maille they used for their hauberks and i'm focusing on complete accuracy as possible.

Were the maille rings used to make the hauberks fully riveted round rings or would they have had solid flat rings alternating as well? or were round rings even used at all during this time period? also what gauge of wire would have typically been used and how big of diameter of rings?

Was the integrated coif used by 1080 or was that a later development? what was the common type of ventail used, the front chest square or side mounted to the coif type?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Check here
viewtopic.php?p=2416905#p2416905