I Wanna Be a 11th C. to mid-12th C. Norman

[Robert of Canterbury]

This thread covers Normans in Northern Europe,

There is a thread for Italo-normans here

[JJ Shred]

The Normans were probably the first group to take advantage of stirrups in order to "couch" a lance under the armpit to give the full force of man, horse and momentum to the charge. While some are shown in the Bayeux Tapestry as thrusting downward, the conroi or calvary formation utilized the couched lance. Lance heads varied from Viking type, small leaf, tri-sided to lugged. The shield was a kite-shaped wooden shield in the first hundred years, with the top being flattened mid to late 12th C. Shields were painted with crosses or fantasy creatures, true heraldry not yet having been developed.
The sword was a one-handed weapon, usually with a brazil nut pommel or, later, a wheel shaped one, with a wide fuller. The swords were suspended by an intricate winding around and through the leather in the scabbard, or unknown, with the hilt protruding through a hole in the mail haulberk and the sword and scabbard underneath it.
Helmets were segmented or raised in one piece, and usually had a nasal piece mounted on the front. Later, a phrygian style, with a re-enforced top center pointed forward were worn.
Body protection consisted of a mail haulberk, thigh length in the 11th C., reaching to mid-calf in the early to mid 12th C. then shortening again as mail chausses came into more common use. In the 11th C. the haulberk usually had short sleeves and an attached camail, sometimes with a square ventail flap that could be tied up to protect the throat and lower face. Wealthier miles sometimes had sleeves underneath the haulberk extending to the wrist. By the mid 12th C. the sleeves were one piece wrist length, and by the end of the century included attached mail mittens. By the mid to late 12th C. mail chausses had become more common.

[Mord]

The best source that I know (and this is not my area, really) is the Bayeux Tapestry. Stenton edited a book on the tapesty: JG Mann wrote the section on arms and armour.

Mord.

[JJ Shred]

Soft kit mid 12th C.:

A copper alloy plaque called "The Guards of the Holy Sepulchre" gives us a pretty good idea what was worn by the common miles. Splay-footed leather turnshoes, hosen, either of wool or linen, a linen undertunic reaching the ankles, and perhaps an aketon or maybe a heavy wool tunic over that and under the haulberk. Braies would have been worn, and some sort of coif, possibly padded, under the mail on the head.
Prior to then, and prior to the First Crusade, a cotton-stuffed garment would have been unlikely. The Bayeux Tapestry shows tight fitting mail haulberks, so quite possibly only a thigh length linen undertunic and a wool overtunic, usually with an embroidered or tablet-woven border on the sleeves, hem and collar were worn. Hosen were shown frequently, sometimes cross gartered with strips of wool for leg bindings and sometimes plain.
The tunic with wide sleeves was known as a Dalmatic in the 11th C., and was also called a cotte if short in length, and a robe if long, with tight-fitting sleeves.

For women, an undergarment of fine linen called a camise, over that an undergown, then an overgown of rich material such as silk, embroidered in vermilion and gold, and with close sleeves to the wrist. The waist is drawn in, and loosely encircling the figure is the girdle made of strands of cord or coloured wool and worn double-wrapped.
A veil or courechef, of very soft, floating material sometimes reaching the calf and held by a fillet was worn over the head.

[JJ Shred]

Scary Norman wanker:

[Michael B]

A distinguishing characteristic of early 12thC western european knights seems to be the long tunic extending to mid-calf or ankle beneath the mail. Very natty look.

[JJ Shred]

For more information on Anglo-Normans 1066 thru the 12th C. see Conquest:

http://angevin.org/

[Egfroth]

If you're going SCA, I'd recommend you choose a time either after about 1150, when ventails started covering the lower face (you can put a great amount of solid protection hidden under under the ventail - look at the guys capturing King Richard at http://www.renfroana.150m.com/liberadhonorem.htm - this is dated to c. 1195, but the face-covering ventail made its appearance earlier), or else after c. 1200, when faceplates started coming in (see the guys on the right at http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g09a.jpg ).

[Aonghus]

Ok then,

I've been to the Conquest site and a few others and have come to the conclusion that I'm too poor to be a Italo-Norman Knight c. 1100 C.E. The riveted mail is just WAY out of reach right now, too expensive to buy and too time consuming to make. BUT...I could probably swing an Italo-Norman Sergent / Soldier kit without selling one of my beloved children The under tunic, super tunic, breas, hosen and other soft kit are readily avaible at known merchants and through my own sources (heck, even I can sew a tunic...just need the right material and someone to do the "pretty" work).

What I need now is a source for the aketon / jack / gambeson that is pictured in at this link on the Conquest site:

http://angevin.org/soldier.htm

or maybe this one:

http://angevin.org/xbow3.htm

Does anyone know a vendor who sells an aketon in the style that would have been used by a Italo-Norman soldier around 1100 C.E.?



I want to have as "period appropriate" kit as I can off the SCA field. To have a legal armour kit on the field I'll either be going with a lemellar kilbanion over the aketon or hidden plastic under. I intend to buy a Norman conical helm w/ nasal and mail coif for display / demos / etc. and a bar grill version w/ camail for the lists. I'll complete the SCA legal part with hidden plastic legs or quilted legs (with plastic plates)w/ metal knees ("soupcan") and either bazubands or quilted arms (as above) for the limbs.

In short, posts here on the Archive have inspired me to have a more realistic / authentic (or whatever word you want to use) appearance off the SCA field and as close-as-I-can-get on the field. Thanks to Tim Finkas, Bascot, Egsroth, and the rest for the help and inspiration.

[Greenshield]

I do a Norman persona in the SCA as well as with steel combat groups here and in Europe. If you have any specific question feel free to post them here or drop me a line. Or check here:



http://community.webshots.com/user/grnshield

Camric

[Greenshield]

Ok gents, sorry for the delay in posting this reply. The armor I wear under my kit is very simple and very basic. It consists of a weight belt for kidney protection, plastic (eek!) street hocky knees reinforced with steel knees and leather bazubands (as guessed) made by Master Geoffery of GAA Armories fame. I HIGHLY suggest Master Geoffery's equiptment.

I have attached a pic of the gear as it is usually never visible. Do understand that this gear is a good 5 years old, gets used usually 2x a week and ain't pretty.....which is why it's covered Thats about it for SCA required equiptment. All the points, kidneys and throat are covered as required. If your Kingdom requires more equiptment it can still be hidden.

If you're willing to go minimum standard on armor you would be amazed how eassy it is to make your kit look spot on. Even without minimum armor it is still easy, it just takes some time and creativity. Avoid the short cuts and 'easy way' out.

Camric

Just Say No to Broadcloth (lol)

[Greenshield]

Greenshield,

Where did you get the boots for your kit?

Talan

Talan,

I got them from Alistair Footware but he has since moved over to England last heard. If you want a good pair of period boots that can have a good rubber sole put on them I would recommend Bohemond(sp?) the bootmaker. He can be found through the Raymond's Quiet Press website:

http://www.nmia.com/~bohemond/

If you want a great pair of authentic shoes, I would suggest Olaf from Olaf's Chainmail:

http://www.olafschainmail.com/. His stuff is top notch and comes highly recommended.

Hope that helps.

Camric

[Wolf]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/hastings2005/hastings2005-01.jpg[/img]

[Greenshield]

Pelagius,

I wear the bazubands because they are easy to hide under a tunic and do not bind or hinder arm movement. However, you do need to remember you will be wearing them when you make your tunic otherwise you will not be able to bend your arm at all if the sleeve is too snug at the elbow.

Sir Kenric, thank you for your kind words.
The leg wraps that I wear on the SCA combat field are actually a heavy linen/cotton canvas type material. I wrap them differently from the leg wraps I would wear with my soft kit or with steel combat because of the leg armour under the pants. The combat ones do not start by being wrapped around my foot. They begin at the knee go down to the top of the foot then back up to the knee. This leaves a 'loop' at the top of my foot. I then begin to wrap the leggings around the top of my knee making it snug behind the knee and around the top of my hidden leg armour. I continue to wrap all the way down the leg and take the end and slide it through the 'loop' at the bottom.

At the top of my knee where I began wrapping is the other end of the leg wraps. Pulling up on this pulls the loop and the other end of the leg wrap up under the wrapping thus locking it in place. Everything is secured at the knee so there is very little chance of the leg wraps coming unraveled or sliding down during combat.

Hope that did not sound to complicated. It's much easier to show than it is to describe. Maybe I'll do a picture how to series on it

Camric

[Lyneya]

Hello All,

I am brand new to the SCA fighting realm, but I too would like to have my kit reflect my 12th Cent Norman female persona. I am still researching the role of women at the time, but some of the things I have seen so far seemed to indicate that women might have donned armour on occasion (to help in defense of land perhaps??). If this were the case, would she just wear men's armour? I apologize for the newbie-ishness of the question, but I am really just looking for a jumping off point. I have posted a similar question to the Ironrose List, but I would like to get as much input as possible.

Thank you!
Lyneya S.

[Token Bastard]

Nothing too helpful, but here's a boost to keep you going in the direction so you don't lose faith: Robert Guiscard, king of the Normans in Italy and Sicily during the years after Manzikert, had a Lombard wife named Sichelgaita who would fight with him in every battle. Of course, she's technically a Lombard, but I'd say it's a decent anchoring point to give you another good reason to fight. But, would there truly be much real deviation from what men wore in terms of armour? We're talking maille hauberks and Norman conical helms; not exactly the most unconforming of armours, I'd say. With ample hidden armour to cover your basic needs, I don't see why a Conical with a nice shirt of maille wouldn't be problematic.

-Ed

[Ravnos]

I just wanted to post a pic of my kit. Now I just got to learn to fight in it. You can't see it in this pic, but I usually have winingas leg wraps though I don't use my good period shoes to fight in (I use steel toe boots). Opinions???

[Ravnos]

The Bayeux Tapestry depicts several shields that are solid in color, as well as ones that have spots on them as seen here
http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux27.shtml
What do you think? I kinda dig it, and haven't seen anyone in the current middle ages with a shield painted like that. Of course I'd need to attach a boss.
Is umbo the correct term for one of those vestigial decorative bosses? How do I curve a boss (or umbo) to fit the shape of a curved shield?

[Graedwyn]

Ravnos-
You are right. There are a number of solid color shields.
I do believe that the dots are generally accepted as being
representations of rivet heads that hold the straps in place.
As you are riveting the boss into place, it should conform
to the relatively slight curve of the shield. You could prep
it a little by starting out with nuts and bolts, tightening each
of them a little and tapping on the flange to keep it flat against
the face of the shield. When you have it where you want it,
replace each of the bolts, one at a time with a rivet.

-Graedwyn

[Ravnos]

So I have decided my kit needs a spear. Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good place to get a good spearhead for a Norman portrayal? Some people on myarmoury have suggested an Arms & Armor, but since I have spent far more than I should have on swords recently I don't think I should be spending quite that much on an A&A spearhead (one day though). Anyone know of somewhere else with decent spearheads for a decent price that would work for a Norman portrayal?

[Karl Helweg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDaB-NNyM8o

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... id=3876568

[B. Fulton]

Museum Replicas probably has some decent spearheads that would work assuming this is a "decorative" not "combat ready" spearhead.




This is my soft kit at the Drachenwald Crown Tourney in Oct 2006, trying for Norman back from the Holy Land, around 1150ish.



That's linen for both. Cloak came from www.garbtheworld.com (long predating my SCA affiliation)

Wool tunic seen here is similar in cut, just much thicker.



And my helm: White Mountain Armory Norman Nasal. I've posted about it in Medieval combat and weapons, I'd put up a pic but Flickr is having trouble right now.

[BIG NIGE]

Hi just come to this

Thanks for the nice words re the conquest site I have the honour to part run the group

First off some absolutley fab reconstructions here and if you will forgive me some not so good ones too

As pete says Norman kit is not a standard set and whilst equipment used in 1066 would still be valid lower down the social hierarchy the cuttign edge stuff is radically diferant BUT you would not see so much of it in its first provenacable years.

If I can help with where we get our stuff from please let me know as we source a lot of it inside the group

[Dragonslayer]

What might a female norman been wearing?

[daguillon]

Depends on what part of the Norman Period you're trying to portray, but the soft kit above is more interpretational rather that historically accurate - as far as re-enactment requirements anyway, but then again that's the beauty of the SCA - you have much more scope to be flamboyant in your kit.

If you have a more specific dateline in mind then I'll try to help if I can.

[GenericUnique]

What would have been done by way of pouches? I can't seem to find illustrations or finds of any, but surely they had to have used something?

[daguillon]

Pouches worn on the belt are inauthentic for a lot of the high medieval period, you'd be better off using a scrip or satchel.

Unless you're asking about money pouches...

[GenericUnique]

Any type of pouches, really. It's more about somewhere to stow my asthma inhaler, frankly. Also, because I'd like to make pouches as I raise my leatherworking skills from "Knife sheathes and odds and ends" to "turnshoes".

[daguillon]

GenericUnique Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:51 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any type of pouches, really. It's more about somewhere to stow my asthma inhaler, frankly. Also, because I'd like to make pouches as I raise my leatherworking skills from "Knife sheathes and odds and ends" to "turnshoes

Don't give up, satchels aren't that difficult to make and you have so much more room in them

As far as we can determine money pouches were more likely to be worn under the tunic which is why they are so lacking in pictorial sources, there are many different versions of money bags that I've seem in use and it's easy enough to make and then store your valuables in the satchel.

Turnshoes are a pain, I used to make my own but have given up and now buy them instead. If you can get hold of it try to find 'Shoes and Patterns'. This book is a result of excavations in London and is a wonderful resource, you could also dig out the reports from Dublin and York too.

[GenericUnique]

Don't give up, satchels aren't that difficult to make and you have so much more room in them

Yes, but I've generally only seen them on shephards and pilgrims. Better than nothing.

As far as we can determine money pouches were more likely to be worn under the tunic which is why they are so lacking in pictorial sources, there are many different versions of money bags that I've seem in use and it's easy enough to make and then store your valuables in the satchel.

Turnshoes are a pain, I used to make my own but have given up and now buy them instead. If you can get hold of it try to find 'Shoes and Patterns'. This book is a result of excavations in London and is a wonderful resource, you could also dig out the reports from Dublin and York too.

Have done! Ah, the joys of university libraries!

[David Edwinson]

I can't afford a chain hauberk, but want to do a post-conquest saxon. What other options for body armour? should I just be wearing a long tunic with hidden armour? As a saxon, would I adopt the norman conical, or something else?

[GenericUnique]

No other real option but chainmail until the thirteenth century. Normans did wear scale/lammellar, but generally only in the Mediterranean. I think I'll leave the leather armour debate/flamewar to somewhere, else, but I can't say it's at all obvious/common if it did exist then.

Yes, a conical or spangen is the way to go.

[Giles de Nablus]

I'm having a very hard time getting a name for my Norman persona I'm going for, can someone point e n the right direction?

Thanks

[daguillon]

I'm having a very hard time getting a name for my Norman persona I'm going for, can someone point e n the right direction?

Thanks

You could try these sites if stuck, quick Google search:

http://www.themiddleages.net/people/names.html
http://nicolaa5.tripod.com/articles/names.html
http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/Ka ... Norman.htm

[Whitley]

This is what my impression is going to be. Pads concealed under my tunic is no problem, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the helmet. I want something that doesn't look totaly wrong from 100 yards away, but my price range is about $200, so an aventail is definately out. Can anyone help a fellow out?

Thanks,
Jim