I want to be a Romano-British warrior (5-6th century Britain

T.G. Moore · Post by **T.G. Moore** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:01 pm

I am having trouble locating information on the pratice of using Pteruges weights. Is this an SCA convention or a historical pratice?

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/subarm.html

"There is commonly a line around the edge of each flap, which may be a tooled line, stitching, or even a sewn-on border. Centurions and higher officers often have pteruges with short thick fringe at the ends, possibly made of wool yarn or metallic thread. (Please do NOT use modern synthetic fringe!) Other than that, pteruges have no other decoration such as studs or appliques!"

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:05 am

I'm not aware of any evidence for pterges in the western empire this late. You would be likely to find better information on imperial Roman practice at:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat

Athavulf_the_Goth · Post by **Athavulf_the_Goth** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:47 am

Hi guys,

Can anyone tell me what they think of these two books?

Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/085045 ... F8ZPU4G7MV

Germanic Warrior
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185532 ... F8ZPU4G7MV

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:53 am

Like any Osprey titles, these are more valuable for collecting evidence into one place than for the conclusions they reach based on that evidence. Treat the color illustrations with a healthy degree of scepticism. That being said, you can get a lot of use and enjoyment out of these. I have the first one and I have other works by the author of the second. Looks like it might have to go on the Christmas list.

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:59 am

Aye, have the first one, and isnt bad, though I wonder why in the picture section they go all the way to Normans. I would of rathered of had other pictures of 5ht-6th century stuff.

The second book I do not have, but might be something I look into getting.

So far my favorite book I have for this, is Shadrakes book Barbarian Warriors - Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The beginning section for Romano-Brit is excellent, and been very helpful with putting together my new kit.

Now if I could just figure out how he did the lamellar mantle, I would be in heaven, cause I could finish up a gorget.

I have a feeling the two rows are not attached to each other, and are instead attached to a light leather backing.

Athavulf_the_Goth · Post by **Athavulf_the_Goth** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:32 pm

Maelgwyn

As you are from Bryn Gwlad perhaps we can get together at the end of the month at your groups event. I am in Bjornsborg and will be at our event, Legend of Lions, the weekend of the 21st. I can bring the book titled Germanic Warrior to let you have look before you spend for it.

Alec · Post by **Alec** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:35 pm

Here is a late Roman kit for SCA combat.

The look of the kit is based on a number of sources. I was shooting for the mid 4thC. My sources are what is generally available for the late Roman military -- various Osprey books, the web (some of the site mentioned in this thread), etc.

I made the scales myself. they are generally 1" wide by 1 1/4" long. I started out with pre-cut 1" wide strips of 20ga bronze or steel and then did the rest with a mix of shears, belt sander, punches, drill, buffer, and other various hand tools. I haven't made a definate count, but there are about 1,400 scales in all. And I will never do it again!!!

Regarding Leg Wraps, -- there is a fair amount of pictoral evidence of some form of leg wrap (Osprey's Late Roman Infantryman shows a mosaic of a Roman soldier with leg wraps, there is also an extant hunting mosaic) -- either a long strip wrapped in some spiral configuration or a cloth rectangle wrapped around the calf and tied at the ankle and below the knee. Seems to have been a must have outdoor fasion accessory

I also like the look for SCA impression purposes because it is slimming. As a rule, SCA impressions often look too bulky. That's true even when you compensate for the wearer of the armor. So I just think that anything one can do to minimize unnecessary bulk helps with the quality of an impression.

Of course the drawback is that its just some wool and linen between my skinny chicken legs and Gunarak the Scythian Beserker's wild katana swing

Bake Nasty · Post by **Bake Nasty** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:01 am

This is a sketch by Dan Shadrake, a military expert. It is supposed to be 5th century. The sketch is of Ambrosius Aurelianus, or the historical figure upon whom Merlin (aye, the wizard) was based.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:19 pm

Alec wrote:I haven't made a definate count, but there are about 1,400 scales in all. And I will never do it again!!!

I heard that! I started out to make a lamellar armour of hardened leather scales, but then decided that leather shoulders on a steel lamellar (commercial punched scales) would be much more effective...as in I'd finish it before I got too old to fight.

If the 14th century crew is the Mafia, then I guess we are the Comitatus. We can't really be part of the Spangen Menace because they have Saxons over there.

Britania Invictus!

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:46 pm

Alec, that is a truly nice kit. I hope that my scale shirt turns out that nice. I am getting almost done with the lower part so I am hoping to be finshied my the end of next month. I was wondering who made your helm and what kind of protection you have for your legs and arms? I will post some pics when my scale shirt is done. My scales are 1.14 inches wide and 1.8 inches long. There is some variation since I made them by hand like you. I used 410 .032 thickness spring stainless for my steel and had them heat treated. I have been really happy with the outcome but I don't reccomend the cost of the steel and heat treatment. You get what you pay for though.

Aedinius

thaddeusmoore · Post by **thaddeusmoore** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:03 pm

Anyone have a pattern for a subarmalis? Lawren's nest sells them for $325. But I am sure I can make one from bleached linen for much less.

Alec · Post by **Alec** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:10 pm

Salve Sextus,

Thank you for your kind words. Heat treated scale!! I am truly impressed. My shirt is really just war decoration. I usually just get knocked about in the head> I good body shot will crease my bronze scales something fierce.

Except for the shoes (ACW reenactment brogans), I made all of the equipment, including the helm. the arms and legs are just fanless cops attached to canvas covered splints. Prety basic stuff. I'll post a pic of them if I can turn one up.

talaananthes · Post by **talaananthes** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:19 pm

So, I have plates to make a lamellar cuirasse (and have in fact assembled it), but I have a question about making the plates look more authentic.

I'm not buffing the plates, so that the cuirasse looks more like munitions grade than parade armour, but at this period was there technology to make perfectly flat sheets of steel, or should I hammer them to rough them up a bit so that they look hand-hammered?

Ceadda · Post by **Ceadda** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:24 am

the tech existed to make em smooth and polished, both with the romans and celts. no reason to hammer em unless you really want to.

talaananthes · Post by **talaananthes** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:32 pm

Ok, thanks for that.

What would the finish on a historical piece of this period be? How polished would you expect a piece to be? I have not buffed or shined the plates at all, and some of them have some very slight but visible surface rust under the clearcoat I put on them. On a munitions-grade cuirasse that you don't expect to be wearing in a parade, how should they be finished?

Btw, here is a short album with pictures of the armour and me with armour, helmet and not in garb. In general, what could I do to improve the appearance of the armour?

A few stipulations:

1. I know the plates are really on the big side, this was a purposeful choice to save money. I'm poor right now and with big plates and small plates costing almost the same, I had to go with big ones.

2. I know nylon 550 rope isn't period. The armour frayed through both hemp rope and artificial sinew very quickly despite the fact that the holes are all very smooth. Metal staples would probably have been more period, but I don't have a subarmalis yet, and don't want them poking holes in my linen tunics. I'm working on making one out of the same blue suede as the shoulder straps but I don't have much experience in leatherworking, so it's taking a while.

2a. Would a subarmalis still have the long, thick pteruges from the earlier period at this later period? At waist? Shoulders?

3. The plates were laced the wrong way up when this picture was taken. I was experimenting with it just to see it both ways and didn't redo it before I took the pictures, which as you can tell aren't really formal but just to post on forums to get peoples' advice.

4. I know I'm skinny. You can tell me that again if you really feel like, but it's unnecessary. I should probably lift more to build a bit of bulk, but as it stands, my workout routine is for tone not mass.

For the record, I have access to forging and metal shop equipment, but a rather small operating budget. The primary use of this will be in heavy-contact boffer fighting (Dagorhir, Belegarth--no magic, no plastic armour, grappling and shield bashing allowed

) where the armour is not going to be put through a lot of structural stress. I am, however, an archaeologist and a general history buff and want my gear and garb to be as accurate as possible given my limited budget.

Willem O'Blood · Post by **Willem O'Blood** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:18 am

Just out of curiousuty, would a pteruges ( http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... m#pteruges ) be period for a late roman persona? I am also a later roman, stuck on the island after 410 when everyone packed up and left. I guess I didn't get the memo. Anyways, I am also going to start working on my kit, and I am thinking of having all 'stealth' armor under my kit Right now I am using a cross country vest (I ride horses in the mundane world) as both padding and a submaralis, and I am working on finishing my scale shirt. My biggest problem right now is my helmet, I cannot find anyone willing to make a very accurate sca legal late roman helmet. I am using an Ashcraft Baker Olympian Barbute for right now, but it will need to be replaced before I go to Pennsic this year.

Willem

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:58 pm

Willem, two armorers I would contact for a helm would be

Knotwolf Armory - Only problem I have with him, is I am not sure how much he does in stainless. And well i hate rust.

http://www.knotwolf.com/

Shamrock Armory - He just did my last helm for me. Will post a pic at end.
http://www.shamrockarmoury.com/

As far as pteruges, not sure. Might be a little late, but maybe not. Trying to think if I have seen any mosaics or anything of 400ad + that might have them showing.

Finn

talaananthes · Post by **talaananthes** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:26 pm

I've been researching the pteruges as well, and my conclusion is that they were still used.

See this 6th (!!!) century mosaic, of a guy wearing a spangenhelm with mail neck drape above an utterly classical musculata with pteruges.

Here's a great shot of a reinactor (living history impression not SCA or other combat group) dressed as late Roman cavalry with pteruges:

What are you going to use for your cuirasse? Maille? Lamellar? To be honest, the idea of a musculata with late period stuff seems kinda cool . . . you could probably even add Byzantine-style shoulder cops to it.

Anyway, though, the general concensus (on RAT, that is) seems to be that pteruges were used in the late period, although I'm not sure to what extent. I think that the general take away message is that if you want them, have them, and if not, don't.

Dalloch · Post by **Dalloch** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:31 am

Be wary of placing too much faith in art. Classical art is Classical, even in the 6th Century. You do see change and new armour styles, but you also see some very old styles, depending on the item of art itself.

There is also the problem of late Imperial 'guard' or ceremonial troops which are often depicted (they are high status after all). A musculata on a â€˜lateâ€™ Roman (also depends when exactly and where) seems unlikely, given what we do know about late Roman armour.

Willem O'Blood · Post by **Willem O'Blood** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:25 am

I ordered some leather last night, so I think I am going to make a set. Also, I have a nice musculata that I wore at war of the wings, but before I fight in it again I need to modify it a bit so my arms can move a bit more. I am really saving up for Ice Falcon's aluminum one, wow is it gorgeous. But right now I am planning on sewing the pteruges into a hex pad shirt to wear under my scale shirt (when it is finished) I plan on having two kits for now, one for war and one for tourney fighting.

On a second note, I have been talking to my armorer friend about correct arm proection, and right now I am thinking hidden cops for my elbows and knees. He also did some research and we have been talking about manica arms and legs. Would that be correct for late period? If I remember correctly, it was used in the dacian war to protect against the curvedsword they carried. With possible evidence at the newstead find of manica, I think it would be ok to wear, but I am not sure the dates of the newstead find. I am also thinking the manica on the legs would be more of a cavalry thing, wich I am OK with, seeing as how I ride horses professionally and I was thinking about having a late roman cavalry helmet made for my kit to replace my horrible helmet.

Tom

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:28 am

Osprey's Late Roman Cavalryman has an illustration of troopers on parade with manica on the legs. Now, it being Osprey and an artist's interpretation, YMMV. I will say that heavily armoured troops in the Late Roman military are most likely to be cavalry. Late roman authors consistently bemoan the fact that infatry discard armour while on the march and complain about the weight of it.

Marius Brittanicus · Post by **Marius Brittanicus** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:50 am

Here is my my new helmet done by Halberds..here on AA. I am going to be working hard on the soft and hard kit to get it done in a week.

I am doing post roman britain. From all the info and research I can get, roman equipment was copied for a fairly long period.

Marius

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:19 am

Very nice new helm.

Took a quick snap shot of me in my new gear. Still need to edge my lamellar, and trying to decide if I want to make a pteruges or maybe just a leather tasset skirt.

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:06 am

Does anyone have a pattern, or how-to for making ptruges, off the shirt? I might want to make them suspended from a thick\ heavy belt so I can avoid having to wear the conected gambeson-thing. Could it be done just like a skirt? Would it need "suspenders" to keep it up... it would be out of leather.

Kind of like this guy. I am trying to get this, but with lamellar instead of scales.

Thanks.

Dalloch · Post by **Dalloch** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:25 am

Brilliant as many of the interpretations posted have been (some very sharp kits), what makes them Romano-British c.5-6th? Most are very fine, but generic â€˜late-romanâ€™ at best. While this may be fine for c.400-450, what about say 550? Has anyone tried a later purely Britonic kit? For example, a rider from the Gododdin?

talaananthes · Post by **talaananthes** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:32 pm

Lack of good information about the period is one major obstacle. You either have to go early or go late.

Brokk · Post by **Brokk** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:56 pm

Brittish-Romano vs Roman (minus Heater Shield)

Roman

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:25 pm

Dalloch wrote:Brilliant as many of the interpretations posted have been (some very sharp kits), what makes them Romano-British c.5-6th? Most are very fine, but generic â€˜late-romanâ€™ at best. While this may be fine for c.400-450, what about say 550? Has anyone tried a later purely Britonic kit? For example, a rider from the Gododdin?

Well, Romans in Britain wear pants!

I would expect the soft kit to "go native" faster than the armour bits because of the durability of the armour and the limited capacity of local industry to make new armour. From roughly 407 to 600 AD I see the Romano-British civilization as a culture under siege, trying to maintain their Roman-ness and the good things that come with it (rule of law, prosperous economy, professional soldiers keeping the civilians safe) despite the loss of imperial resources and the steady influx of additional "barbarian" invaders.

I would expect armour to degrade over time with very limited evolution to new forms other than a growing Anglo-Saxon influence through captured gear and trade. In Y Gododdin as I recall there are references to bright mail and helmets but nothing more specific and little archeological evidence to fill in the gaps. After about 600 I would expect Roman-pattern gear to become more and more rare and the British war equipment to become mostly indistinguishable from contemporary Anglo-Saxon gear.

But of course this is all speculative due to a lack of physical evidence.

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Here is a pic of my latest additions, and yeah I know I have been messing with this kit in the visigoth section also, as well as the Dal Riatta. But well it doesnt fit into the Dal Riatta, and though it does fit into the Visigoth/Ostrogoth look, well just not feeling it. I tried it last year, but I still look at myself as a romano-brit, though Rome left decades ago.

Hoping to get pics this weekend of the kit at Ice Dragon, taking my camera. Granted only thing that will be different from the pics now and this weekend, is going back to my dished round shield.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:39 pm

Nice kit.

My references suggest that the late Roman/sub-Roman infantryman would likely have been wearing leg wraps (forgetting the Latin word they used, and don't have my books here) under the greaves. Greaves makes you a front-ranker, file leader, in this era (most likely). You might also be wearing vambraces at that rate - one on the non-shield arm, at any rate.

The shield looks *really* small. Guessing that you scaled it down for tourney, or something? It should be about shoulder to knee. And the rectangular shield had been pretty much replaced by rounds or ovals by 400 CE.

I'm a little surprised by all the lamellar in peoples' kits in this thread. I consider myself pretty well versed on sub-Roman Britain, but I have never seen a reference to lamellar in this place and time. Elsewhere in the Empire (especially Eastern), sure. But not in Britain. I suppose that makes it "plausible", but I don't know about historical. Has anyone else seen reference to lamellar in sub-Roman Britain? I'd welcome a reference if I have missed one.

Lindsay · Post by **Lindsay** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:09 pm

Found these pictures on http://www.livinghistory.co.uk
It's apparently the first full century of late Romans assembled in Britain since 410ad!

More pics here: http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 16&t=21659 I take no credit for any of them, just thought I'd share!

The group is Britannia http://www.durolitum.co.uk/ And friends.

Marius Brittanicus · Post by **Marius Brittanicus** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:56 am

I like this kit

Xanthier · Post by **Xanthier** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:53 pm

Kit is still a work in progress.
Lamellar needs some more tailoring. Just got back into SCA after about 5 years off.

Here was a quick put together so I could get out on the field.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:53 am

Here is my latest version, with the new boots:

Saxonreb · Post by **Saxonreb** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:00 am

Greetings,

I recently bought a Romano-British helm and want to build fighting persona around it.

Because of my age (63) and some physical limitations (polio) my kit need to be as light as possible.

My current body armour is ABS plastic which I wear under a tunic. From my reasearch, scale, lamillare or mail would seem to be the body armour of choice but I cant handle the weight (or the expense). So, does wearing a tunic over my body armour dumb down my kit to much.

I would appreciate suggestions on the most appropriate tunic, pants and shoes.

I currently fight in either high top Medieval mocassins or two toggle Viking boots from Bohemond.

I think I am OK with my shields. One is a 28 inch round with rawhide rim. The other is a 24"x34" aluminum elliptical oval. But, I need suggestion on what to paint on them. With a persona this early it would not be appropriate to use my device even though it is an early style.

Thanks.

Saxonreb

I want to be a Romano-British warrior (5-6th century Britain

Osprey Books

Germanic Warrior

New Helmet

I always liked these