I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD

Robert of Canterbury · Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:22 am

Byzantine? What do you mean Byzantine? I'm a Roman!

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:08 am

Gads! May I ask if there was any reason in particular why the date of 1180? Manzikert was in 1071, and previous to that is considered the only era in which the Byzantine armed forces were considered "invincible." Afterwards, and even during Manzikert, mercenaries played a large role in the Byzantine army.

I'll look into the date today and bring back what I can, later. Could we perhaps get one of these threads for the Varangian Guardsmen, in general, while we're at it?

-Gregory-

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:20 pm

Hey Robert,

We might want to rename the thread 1050 - 1250. I didn't realize that the serious power behind the Byzantine throne was beginning to peter out at the beginning of the 13th century, with their major employ of out-country mercenary sources.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:46 am

Nah, the Rhomaioi used mercenaries right back to the 5th century. The big change around Manzikert was that the army had been neglected for 50 years, as the civil service had become the power in Byzantium, leaving the army out in the cold. A succession of weak emperors, dominated by the civil service, exacerbated the situation, and civil wars after Manzikert (and the loss of the last Roman possessions in Italy, the same year), lost the Empire much of its prestige and possessions. Most catastrophic was the enlistment by both sides in the civil war of Turkish mercenaries, even alowing them to garrison the cities of the Empire's richest and most fertile region, Anatolia (Asia Minor - what is now known as Turkey). Within 10 years, the whole region was effectively lost, and despite resurgences in later years, remained so. However, Alexios I Comnenos, who came to the throne in 1081, was the cause of a huge turnaround in Roman fortunes, allowing the Empire to draw breath, and even regain much lost territory. His biography, written by his daughter Anna, is at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/An ... exiad.html

But by 1180, things were going from bad to worse. The disastrous defeat at Myriocephalum had caused the final end of Byzantine hopes in Asia Minor, the execrable Angelos family of Emperors had come to the throne, Thessaloniki, the second city of the Empire was soon to be sacked, and in 1204, Constantinople itself.

In 1180 you'd be fighting in a lost cause - not that there's anything wrong with that - there's no shortage of Confederate ACW Re-enactors, after all.

Now, for Roman kit for the period you're interested in, see Dr Tim Dawson's Levantia site at http://www.levantia.com.au/ - Tim is recognised as being one of the most knowledgable people in the world on their military equipment and costume. For some Primary Source representations of war-gear, particularly high-ranking cavalry, you can't go past the contemporary ikons of military siants. You can see a whole bunch of these from the 10th century, in the time of one of the Empire's most successful Emperor/generals, Ioannis (John)Tzimiskes at http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Dovecote_Armour

Hope this helps

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Sat May 28, 2005 9:50 am

Just like Egfroth said the Byzantines made a come back starting with Alexius and Especially with John who had taken over Anatolia to the same region north of Antioch and he even moved into Syria attacking some lands near Aleppo where many Christian and Moslem sources tell of his great courage and military skill. Zengi the great Moslem leader of the time did not even wish a full out battle with him and his army. Unfortune as always in the crusades distrust between the Christians forced John to return back to his newly conquered lands. In 1143 John was injured in a hunting accident and even though Byzantine Doctors were good for the era John did not heed them and appears to have died from infection.
His son Manuel did very well initially taking over areas in the balkans and even pushing out all foreigners in the Aegean, he even held a foothold in southern Italy but the battle of Myriocephalum, where his Byzantine army was suprised by the Turks, like Egfroth said before was very damaging, not in large loss of lands initially, because the next year he went in and held most of their possesions but Manuel health broke soon after and he died not long after and without strong leadership the empire began to crumble.
I blame the greatest weakening of the Empire on the Fourth Crusade. They lost not only their main city with all its wealth but many of the great people of the city fled never to return. They also lost what unity they had leaving the empires lands set into smaller territories without a central head and their Moral was damaged. After that the Eastern Romans tried very hard to Get back to their formor glory, taking Constantinople in 1261. But Consider they did survive, albeit in a very small sense till 1453. That says something of their spirit. I believe in the end they were unable to win with enemies on every side.
Enough of my blabbing but I always have loved the Roman East. I have gathered my info in a number of places here are some I took a class on the Crusades and that helped greatly to find things to read and understand the crusades. Here are some basic books I recommend, The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades. good quick and easy, Edited by Jonathan Riley Smith, and if you like to read and a good starting point A history of the Crusades by Steven Runciman.
If I were to choose a lifetime to live in Byzantium it would be starting around 1090 into Manuel's early reign. They still are a major force to be dealt with. As far as armour you are safe with a mail shirt, scale or lamellar. They also used one piece round and semi-conical helmets. Earlier helmets can be of multi-plate construction. i have seen some pictures of late byzantine art where there are helmets that may be fluting of multiplates but I am not sure. Byzantine armies still comprised of large infanty forces but had cavalry forces as well. You can use lance, sword and axe. Look in Arms and armour of the crusading era by Nicolle. I just got the second volume that covers the east. While not close to as much info on Byzantine arms and armour as I had hoped it is useful.
RPM

Aonghus · Post by **Aonghus** » Sun May 29, 2005 4:57 am

The Levantia site, how reliable is it? It looks great, has some nice pics, and also some books / booklets that look pretty good. Those books look just like what the Archive is trying to do here in the "I want to be forum". If the stuff is historically accurate...well it's pretty sweet! Not knowing to much about the period, it looks good...but how "deep" is it?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:30 am

Tim Dawson is actually doctor Tim. His doctoral thesis (in history)was on the use of reconstructive (ie LH) techniques to determine how arms/armour/clothing were made and used.

He is quite obsessive about using primary source and archaeological information, and getting it right. He has been published in several learned journals, and at least one book, particularly on the subjects of Byzantine clothing and armour. Until it folded, he was the editor of the much-lamented British Mediaeval History magazine.

If Tim has quoted the information, you can pretty much rely on it. I do disagree with some of his interpretations of Primary source materials. But I also have to acknowledge that his interpretations are just as valid - on the available evidence - as my own. (I just think mine are right). And these are very minor issues - does the patterning in the aventails on the helmets in the Skylitzes Chronicle indicate padding (as Tim believes) or "upside down lamellar", which is my own opinion.

Oh, and he's a good mate of mine. I've known him since 1986.

So there you go, for what it's worth.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:01 pm

Egfroth,

I remember a former post where greaves and soldiers of byzantium was being discussed and had some questions. I have read the Strategikon a couple of times and thought there were mention of greaves. Let me go unbox my copy and see if it is highlighted but I was fairly sure it was. I did my sr. paper in Byzantine/ Persian conflict leading to the Arab conquest and focused it mainly on the military. Apart from that reference, (which is alittle early for 10/11th century perhaps) there are a few pictures and sculptures of people from the 11th century with what appears to be greaves as well. They are not splinted though. I will take a look, it may take a few though as I am getting ready to move outside the country. Let me know if you can always like to be a little firmer in understanding, do you think they used greaves? Thanks in advance,

RPM

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:46 am

Randall - the thread you mentioned is here.

The Skylitzes Chronicle shows a single warrior (out of hundreds!) wearing what appear to be splinted greaves and vambraces, and there is a golden jug found in Hungary showing either a Magyar or perhaps a Bulgarian with the same. That's about it.

(Added later - see this link for other evidence regarding splinted limb armour. I leave you to make your own conclusions whether this means they were worn by the Byzantines.)

If by greaves you mean lower leg protection - yes, there is plenty of pictorial evidence of such. See http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Dovecote_Armour and the carved ikons on the first page at viewtopic.php?t=52942&highlight=byzantine+sleeve . They are usually referred to as toubia, and usually appear to be made either of padded fabric (or something of the sort), or like cross-gartering (perhaps leather?) You can see more about toubia at Tim Dawson's site.

hovag · Post by **hovag** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:49 am

On this page (http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/HiddenNikitas.html) it lists the saints as wearing "calf-length padded kampotoubia"

Does anyone know what these are and how they are made?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:27 pm

Yes, it's on Tim Dawson's Levantia site at http://www.levantia.com.au.

(Updated Feb 2014 - Unfortunately, there seems to be some problem with accessing the pages within his site from the home page - you can currently only access a couple of pages about the lack of verifiable information on Varangian Guards and the difficulty of portraying them. It seems to be easier, if you're looking for armour/equipment only, to go to http://www.levantia.com.au/military/armour.html#DETAIL and then follow the links.

Oh, and that page of mine is now unfortunately dead since Yahoo cancelled the free Geocities server some years ago so they could get more profit from paid sites. But I've added the picture here as an attachment.)

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:54 pm

I've done a reconstruction of a Byzantine armoured sleeve and pauldron - at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=52942 - worth a look.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:00 pm

I've put the lacing patterns for both the sleeve and the klivanion up on the AA - see http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 723#739723

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:28 pm

And now it's got photos of the construction and attachment of the pauldron. See link above.

Verjigorm · Post by **Verjigorm** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:26 pm

I'm curious as to whether cur boiulli armour may be used to replace metal for the klibinon? This is primarly for my intrest of being an Elite Themata kontoratoi/hoplatoi.

Medka · Post by **Medka** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:28 am

Well, most of the paintings are a little bit later (mostly 14th and 15th cent.), but here some examples of bulgarian wall paintings from monasteries and churches. Hope they will help.
http://www.bgphoto.net/Albums.aspx?UserId=4586

Greetings,
Medka

P.S. First post here. "Hi" to all

Edit: I figured out, that for you, it would be much easier if I post the direct links to the different albums.
Here they are:

Dragalevo monastery (early 15th cent.) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=72499

"Sv. Dimitur" church, the village of Boboshevo (1488) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=71030

"Sv. Nikolai" church, the village of Separeva Banya (12th cent., not much left intact) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=70807

"Sv. Bogoroditsa" church, the village of Priboy http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=69620

"Sv. Petar" church, the village of Berende (14th. cent.) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=51721

"Sv. Nikolai" church, the village of Kalotina (14th. cent.) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=51717

church in the village of Dolna Kamenitza (14th. cent., currently in Macedonia) http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=47308

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:49 pm

Medka, I just looked at this thread again, and none of your links work. Have yuou taken them down again already, or is their something wrong with them? I'd dearly like to see them.

Medka · Post by **Medka** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:27 pm

The photos are made by a friend of mine. Something seems to be wrong with his hosting. I've send him a message and I will inform you as soon as I get the response.

Greetings,
Medka

Medka · Post by **Medka** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Here is the new link. Enjoy :)

http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?User ... umId=84750

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:06 am

Verjigorm wrote:I'm curious as to whether cur boiulli armour may be used to replace metal for the klibinon? This is primarly for my intrest of being an Elite Themata kontoratoi/hoplatoi.

Strictly you would be a kontarios or an oplites. The words you've used have plural endings. Greek is a bugger of a language - words change depending where they fit in the sentence, especially their endings. And they'd stopped pronouncing the "h" in hoplite by the Byzantine period (Hell! They called Homer "Omeros"!)

It is possible that cuir bouilli was used - most of the information we have is based only on pictorial evidence, and often the colours of the plates are blue, gold or yellow. However, I believe the wealthier soldiers would have had steel plates.

It's actually not all that likely that a kontarios after the early 10th century would have any armour at all, being more likely to wear a padded kavadion. Nikephoros Phokas' Praecapta Militaria is different from the work it was copied from, apart from other things, in omitting armour from the requirements for an infantryman, even a heavily armed one.

Bake Nasty · Post by **Bake Nasty** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:30 pm

Ammianus Marcellinus wrote:all the companies were clad in iron, and all parts of their bodies were covered with thick plates, so fitted that the stiff-joints conformed with those of their limbs; and the forms of human faces were so skilfully fitted to their heads, that since their entire body was covered with metal, arrows that fell upon them could lodge only where they could see a little through tiny openings opposite the pupil of the eye, or where through the tip of their nose they were able to get a little breath.

Here, 4th century Persian Kataphractoi are described; how late were these kinds of helmets used, and where?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:32 pm

AFAIK there's really no information for Byzantium or Persia later than this, but just over Byzantium's northern border in Southern Russia, "face-mask" helmets were being used as late as the 12th or 13th century - see http://www.oocities.org/kaganate/helmDB/index.html

There are references in literature (for example Anna Comnena's 12th century Alexiad) to movable "visors", but it's anybody's guess what that means, and there are illustrations in the Skylitzes chronicle of Madrid, of what might be mail or scale face curtains (see attached). There was a discussion about that somewhere in the AA, but I can't find it at the moment.

Kiniska · Post by **Kiniska** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:11 pm

HI everyone! This year will be my first in the SCA. I have my heart set on being a light Byzantine mounted archer. Anyone have experiece with this or know where to go to get garb information? I make 15th century gambesons with Gmandragora, so I can construct most stuff myself.

Also, I have an Arabian horse that I am training to gallop without reigns and hopefully I'll be able to shoot off of. Again, any helpful information or relavent sites will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:23 pm

As I mentioned above, start with Tim Dawson's Levantia site, in particular his horse archer page.

Probably your best primary source is Sowing the Dragon's Teeth (three 10th century military manuals, translated by Eric McGeer).

You could also look at the Skylitzes Chronicle of Madrid, a 12th century illustrated Byzantine history- you can buy the whole thing in facsimile if you have 250 Euros to spare.
(Added 15 Feb 2014 - see Ernst's post of Aug 17 2012 on the second page of this thread for a link to the entire Skylitzes Chronicle for free.)

Not a LOT on light cavalry archers in any Byzantine source. A couple of nice pics at http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... vadion.jpg and http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... rcher2.jpg
Hope that helps.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:18 am

Kiniska, also, check out atarn.org. They have many helpful people who may help you to avoid mistakes in your horse archery.

Kimse · Post by **Kimse** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:33 pm

Watching this thread with interest. Sadly I'm not allowed to make my own topic (only moderators can). But I'm looking at developing a Khazar warrior from a similar time period (perhaps a bit earlier). There is evidence that there was some trading (and fighting) back and forth between the Khazars and Byzantines. As well as inter marriage (in fact there was a male byzantine fashion - the tzitzakion - based on the wedding gown of a Khazar princess.

As for splint mail vambraces/greeves - there are some pictures of warriors from the region using them at about the time I'm looking (10th century). They also used helmets which looked (in the pictures) similar to a spagenhelm. Other than that the pictures look like mostly mail. Very similar to the europeans of the period (elbow-length tunics, often with head / face coverings, perhaps joined, it's hard to tell from the pics). There are some scale / lamellar looking pictures though, and also plates hidden within clothing of the period.

There is also a set of mongol boots from the period which were leather stuffed with metal plates. Not sure how much trade of ideas went on with the byzantines and/or khazars and mongols. But since they were on the silk road there is a possibility that others adopted this idea.

So far that's what I've found. Good-luck (I'll be looking at what other people find with interest) =D

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:26 pm

Actually, there's already a thread - at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=72544

Kimse, can you point me to the pics of Khazars with splinted vambraces/greaves? I've spent quite a bit of time following up leads on these things, and they almost always peter out into an "everybody knows" based on almost no hard data. See the threads here and here

Kimse · Post by **Kimse** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:30 am

The picture is a recreation of this:

Sorry if it's too small to see properly, it's the only one I could find. An 8th century ewer. So a bit earlier than I thought (sorry).

The other stuff I've seen is just pictures drawn recently by those trying to recreate the time.

Here's a better example of period arm/shoulder/leg coverings. Though they're corroded as all get out, they give a fair indication of what they would have been:

So not lamellar, but rather segmented plate, put together in a similar way to the spagenhelm:
http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/khazararms/

Maybe I just want it to be splint because I might (possibly) be able to make that myself. =)

PS Wish I could work out where they got the left image from. The second is 7-8th c. Both seem to indicate a lamellar or splint type arm armour, though I'm not sure what period the first item's from.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:00 am

It's late Avar/early Carpathian/Conquest Era Magyar (depending on interpretation, but late Avar is the most common interpretation), a find from Nagyszentmiklos, and has nothing at all to do with either Byzantium or Khazaria except as a parallel.

Kimse · Post by **Kimse** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:42 am

Cool, thanks Russ.

The Khazars were around that time, and in the same region, so they may have worn something similar. Where was it found?

Still a bit early for Khazar I want to develop though =(

Egfroth - cheers! I did see that person's thread, and the links you posted. Very useful.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:50 am

Check your geography. It's no more the same region as saying Portugal and Belgium are the same region... and it's about the same distance!

StefanSanglier · Post by **StefanSanglier** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:24 pm

Anyone know what happened to the Levantia site at http://www.levantia.com.au/ ? I have been looking for the pictures and can not find them anywhere.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:47 pm

stefansanglier wrote:Anyone know what happened to the Levantia site at http://www.levantia.com.au/ ? I have been looking for the pictures and can not find them anywhere.

You can try the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.levant ... u">Wayback Machine</a>. It's slow, but it works. The November 2008 seems quickest to me.

BIG NIGE · Post by **BIG NIGE** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:08 am

I thin a lot of this will be covered in Timothy new Osprey on Byzantine cavalry due I think this year

Will ask him down the pub next week

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:00 pm

Message from Tim Dawson forwarded from another list:

Until I can get a new full service ISP sorted out, I have put up a temporary Levantia site at

http://livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/Levantia_light/

It does not have everything on the old one by any means, but it does have some new material I did not get to put on the old one before it crashed.

I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD

I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD

Byzantine Archer

There did it go?

Re: There did it go?