English Gentleman at Arms, 1340

[Robert of Canterbury]

Likely to be called Thomas, Richard, Henry or John.

Likely as not to be a De so-and-so.

Dressed similar to This

[wbf]

Well heres what I have scrouged up .. Feel free to correct me..

Clothing:
St louis shirt
Braies
Chassues
Coteharde
Turn shoes
Hood w/long daggly bit in back

Armour and Arming clothes:
padded jack (or aketon which ever)
Chainmaille hauberk
Coat of Plates
Arms; fully articulated arm harness is beginning to appear, but it is still far more common to have a simple spaulder, a rerebrace, couter and vambrace seperate. The vambrace might be closed or open and the rerebrace is usually open. Often you see the spaulder, rerebrace and couter over the haubergeon sleeve, which is about elbow length, or a bit longer, and the vambrace under the haubergeon sleeve. Though the usual, solid armour over mail is frequewntly seen too. The rerbrace and vambrace could be cuir boulli (probably).

Legs:Padded or splinted cuisses, a poleyn, and greaves are most common. In 1340's the greaves could be schynbalds (front only) or true cased greaves. The shynbalds could be cuir boulli (probably).

Hands; Finger gauntlets are usual, though you might still see mail-only hand protection as well. The gauntlets are usually similar to the Wisby finds.

Visored Bascinet, or Sugarloaf; Keep in mind that a 1340's Englishman's bascinet visor would be side-mounted (NOT a klappvisor) and flattish ala the Romance of Alexander.

Plaque belt

Now as for everything else I have no clue.. To be honest I am not sure what I listed above is correct.. Please feel free to amend the above list...

(edited, RoC to update w Strongbow's input)

[Madyn]

Eric Slyter on the Arador Armour Library wrote an article about the evolution of the spaulder in the 14th c.

http://www.arador.com/articles/index.html (halfway down the page, under "Research"). Incidentally, there are some examples of spaulders with lames right around 1340.

[Egfroth]

For lots of pics of armour from contemporary brasses, have a look at the Gothic Eye site. Some nice examples from about 1340.

[Rod Walker]

[RandallMoffett]

Strongbow said most of what I wanted too so I can point you to some good 1330-1340ish pictures. The Hours of Sarum Yates Thompson 13 in the British Library has some very nice pictures of men in full plate armour. (wearing long sur-coats so he breastplate is something I cannot but speculate on) I was actually excited to find this as the knights do not have the besagew type shoulders from the early first few dacades of the 14th but more or less a spaulder without lames, attached in the manner strongbow mentions. I assume if you are better of gentry with money you'd have iron plates, poorer leather. I actually have never seen any records of the sale of leather armour in the early 14th century so this is just speculation. None of the pictures I have been looking at for the early 14th century seem to indicate plate of anything but iron or latten. That could be because a limit on colors being used by the artist but its fairly colorful for that to hold up really. Records mention whale bone in froissart. Royal MS 10 E Iv folio 89 has a fully armed knights in plate, unfortunatly the surcoat masks the shoulder and torso, but you can see some form of plate looking leg defense on his upper leg. I am slightly heretical when it comes to torso protection but I figure the breastplate was in use by the end of the 1340's 1350's by upper nobility but there is only logic and a few lines to back that up, so its mostly speculation.
RPM

[Hugo de Stonham]

Are Ailette period for the 14th century? Rod Walker, what are your's made of?

Grendal

[RandallMoffett]

They are period for early 14th century. They start becoming less popular till by the mid 14th they are totally gone basically.
RPM

[Hugo de Stonham]

So would also a knight wear crusader elbows and knees as well?

Grendal

[RandallMoffett]

By 1330 every part of limb armour had been invented basically. Claude Blair thinks it was in common use by this point for most knights. If you can see the Taymouth hours every knight in it is wearing full arms and poleyns, greaves and sabatons, it is dates 1325-35. Knights in 1310 were really a bit funny though. Most knights are wearing poleyns and couters as well as greaves and at times gauntlets, some having besagews at the elbow and shoulder as well. Typically because the tabard not can be seen of the cuisse or torso, it seems to have been possible to wear early plate under the mail as well. Previous to 1300 couters and poleyns would be basically limb defenses although there are mention previous to 1300 of many other limb defenses. I would think of a knight of 1330 would have much, much more armour than just poleyns and couters.
RPM

[Elvewyn]

Can anyone give me any specifics about what the horseman above is wearing?(Rod Walker's post)

[Karl Helweg]

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... sc&start=0

[dacovalu]

I was wondering, when you mention cuir boulli does this include splints as well?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

I was wondering, when you mention cuir boulli does this include splints as well?

It should not, necessarily. There are many surviving period effigies that show detailed decoration on the rerebraces, vambraces and greaves of the fallen knights. These pieces are likely to be pure leather cuir boulli. If studs of some kind or the obvious exposed splits are shown on the images, then they are likely thinner leather with splints attached, and not truly cuir boulli pieces.

-Gregory

[dacovalu]

Thank you. When did splints appear? im still not completely sure, i was under the impression they appeared somewhere in the 1320's or a bit later and were largely replaced by plate by 1360 or somewhere in that region with the exception of Germany which seemed to continue to use splinted armour for the Knightly classes till 1380 and possibly later.

Also is it acceptable in terms of accuracy, for the leather with the splints to be dyed in a similer manner to belts and pouches. In this case blue.
Daco

[Cian of Storvik]

Splints in England disappeared around 1380. I have several effigies from 1370 that depict splinted limb armor. In Germany there is evidence it was in use into the beginning of the 15th century though not to exclusivity. See Burkhard von Steinberg.

I've never looked to see how early splints go back. But the thing to remember about armor is that, even though more state of the art technologies developed, not everyone glommed onto the latest and greatest and it sometimes was generations before the majority of people accepted it. Of course, then there are other trends like sallets in the 15th century which took only about 20 years to become almost universal as a head protection in armies on the continent.

I'm going to contradict Gregory's statement though that splints were thick and leather was thin. As there is no evidence either way. I believe it was just as likely to have thin metal splints on cuir-broile as it is to have thick metal suspnded on tanned leather. The arguments for either side don't hold up to scrutiny.
Having used both, I prefer cuir-broile with thinner metal splints as they are lighter and yet suitable for SCA combat. But as for historic authenticity, I don't know that either type is more accurate then the other or if they were both used interchangebly.

-Cian

[RandallMoffett]

Cian,

Actually there is evidence that splint leather was not of the hardened type.

From the Calendar of London Letter Books (Roll A 1b 17 Nov. 1326) the type of leather clearly is not hardened leather, most translations including the original text. Since it is the only evidence we have of metal and leather 'splint' armour as far as I know in this regards I'd say for now it is really the only weight on the balance.

Doug Strong perhaps has some splints but those I have seen that I am fairly sure are splints were not generally different in thickness from the solid plate armour it ran against.

RPM

[Andeerz]

Question about the arming clothes: Braies-up, what goes under the armour?

I know there's an aketon/gambeson/whatever, but is there anything under that? And what kind of extant examples, if any, are available for reference?

For the legs, would the undergarment basically be basically thick chausses pointed or tied to the braies? What kind of construction and padding would they use?

For the pelvis, would it just be braies?

Thanks!

[James B.]

Question about the arming clothes: Braies-up, what goes under the armour?

I know there's an aketon/gambeson/whatever, but is there anything under that? And what kind of extant examples, if any, are available for reference?

I know for myself I forgo a shirt under my arming cote; I think one of the "how a man shalt be armed" references from later centuries states to forgo the shirt; but don't quote me on that.

For the legs, would the undergarment basically be basically thick chausses pointed or tied to the braies? What kind of construction and padding would they use?

I think padding for legs under the armor (such as padded and quilted hosen) has been debated about 1000 times here and I don't think any evidence of that other than a blanket wrapping over the knees has ever been dug up.

I just wear woolen hose under my splinted and padded cuisses. My best guess based off the artwork at the time is that you wore hose, maille chausses, maybe padded or splinted cuisses, knees, and maybe leather or metal frontal greaves.

[RandallMoffett]

James,

Are you sure.... I think we have loads of info regarding padded cuisses. The real problem to prove would be for greaves. There are at least two effigies that show padding sticking out at the bottom of splint or plate cuisses from the 14th.

RPM

[Cian of Storvik]

I think it was just stated the way makes it confusing. James seems to be saying "Yes" to padded cuisses. But not the entirety of the chausses themselves being padded and worn over mail. But He's saying "No" gamboised chausses.

Greaves are difficult. The chainmail provides a good deal of protection there, and in rattan fighting greaves primarily protect the shin bone. In my experience the thigh has been much more sensative/painful to bruising then my calves even with beefier layers on them. If this is for rattan fighting, you may find that some thick wool hose with chainmail could be enough for those errant blows that hit below the knee. But it's purely conjecture on my part.
If it's purely for asthetic/accuracy then I would say forego a greave.

-Cian

[James B.]

Opps sorry I was not clear I meant padded legging under the maille or cuisses as Cian said. I tried rewording it a little better.

And I guess I should state for this era. There are a few paintings that make argument for some sort of padded hose in the 16th century.

[Ernst]

Here's an image from The Pilgimage of the Life of Man, Morgan M.772, fo. 29v. from 1348. There are a number of grisaille miniatures from folio 25v through 35v showing the pilgrim brother, Guillaume de Deguileville being armed by the allegorical figure of Grace.

Fully armed:
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000141673

The gambeson to be worn under mail has a standing collar, a slightly flared skirt, and rather full upper sleeves.

http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000141627

[Andeerz]

Woot! This helps a lot! Hmmm... I wish I could see what the guy had on his legs a bit better. I guess I could simply assume he had maybe slightly thicker linen or something chausses pointed to the arming cote or perhaps to the braies. On top of that would be maille chausses... Would this seem alright?

[Ernst]

Woot! This helps a lot! Hmmm... I wish I could see what the guy had on his legs a bit better. I guess I could simply assume he had maybe slightly thicker linen or something chausses pointed to the arming cote or perhaps to the braies. On top of that would be maille chausses... Would this seem alright?

The Norwegian King's Mirror of a centruty earlier specifies linen chausses for use under the mail. I would presume linen to be more wear resistant than the standard wool chauses worn everyday.

[James B.]

Woot! This helps a lot! Hmmm... I wish I could see what the guy had on his legs a bit better. I guess I could simply assume he had maybe slightly thicker linen or something chausses pointed to the arming cote or perhaps to the braies. On top of that would be maille chausses... Would this seem alright?

The Norwegian King's Mirror of a centruty earlier specifies linen chausses for use under the mail. I would presume linen to be more wear resistant than the standard wool chauses worn everyday.

Linen is easier to clean. Even hand washing wool will shrink but linen will not

[Johan S. Moen]

Woot! This helps a lot! Hmmm... I wish I could see what the guy had on his legs a bit better. I guess I could simply assume he had maybe slightly thicker linen or something chausses pointed to the arming cote or perhaps to the braies. On top of that would be maille chausses... Would this seem alright?

The Norwegian King's Mirror of a centruty earlier specifies linen chausses for use under the mail. I would presume linen to be more wear resistant than the standard wool chauses worn everyday.

I'd be a bit careful with the King's Mirror in this instance. Yes, it is likely that the "lerret" specified for hosen is linen.

But, the word can mean both "linen cloth" and "canvas" - the latter referring to weave, not material in this case. While I think it most likely that the passage refers to linen hosen, it is difficult to know for sure, especially given the somewhat troublesome use of terminology in the rest of that passage.

Johan Schubert Moen

[Tailoress]

Woot! This helps a lot! Hmmm... I wish I could see what the guy had on his legs a bit better. I guess I could simply assume he had maybe slightly thicker linen or something chausses pointed to the arming cote or perhaps to the braies. On top of that would be maille chausses... Would this seem alright?

The Norwegian King's Mirror of a centruty earlier specifies linen chausses for use under the mail. I would presume linen to be more wear resistant than the standard wool chauses worn everyday.

Strangely, it doesn't seem to be so, at least from my anecdotal experiments making them for friends who fight. Heat and friction breaks down linen fibers while it tends to full/felt wool fibers tightly together. Extend this to the context we're talking about and you can see how wool can hold up longer. The linen hosen seem to wear holes in the heel rather quickly, for instance. The wool takes longer for that.

[Johan S. Moen]

The Norwegian King's Mirror of a centruty earlier specifies linen chausses for use under the mail. I would presume linen to be more wear resistant than the standard wool chauses worn everyday.

Strangely, it doesn't seem to be so, at least from my anecdotal experiments making them for friends who fight. Heat and friction breaks down linen fibers while it tends to full/felt wool fibers tightly together. Extend this to the context we're talking about and you can see how wool can hold up longer. The linen hosen seem to wear holes in the heel rather quickly, for instance. The wool takes longer for that.

The King's Mirror specifies "vel sverta" cloth, which rougly translates as "well blackened". However, "vel sverta" might just mean that the cloth is well dyed, but it might also mean that it is treated in some way - perhaps with pitch, tar, wax, or some other substance that increases durability. I agree that linen on its own isn't really ideal; the mail does gnaw on it quite a bit...

By the way, I'd be vary of English translations of the King's Mirror (I just had a look at a few). Many consequently translate "lerret/lereft" as "linen", among other things. While this is not wrong per se, it isn't really right either, as it loses some of the potential meanings the original text has.

Johan Schubert Moen

[talaananthes]

What sorts of visors on a bascinet would be most appropriate for this era? Someone said no klappvisor, but a flattish side-swivel visor of some sort, a la the Romance of Alexander. I looked at some of the plates from that work, and don't see any such visors--an anyone help me out with this, please?

Klappvisors seem to be pretty ubiquitous in CotT pictures, but I know they tend towards the second half of the century . . . what sorts of visors were being used at the end of the first half?

[RandallMoffett]

Here you go! Ther eare loads in the Romance but here is one from the Holkham Bible c. 1326.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bannockburn.jpg

RPM

[talaananthes]

Thanks . . . guess I must have seen the wrong pix or missed them, was having a hard time finding a good source for pictures of the Romance.

I'm going for probably just prior to 1350, are these the only sort of bascinet visor that was being used then?

[Cian of Storvik]

Look at the following web site. Because of all the pics, it will take a very long time to load. About the middle of the page is the period you're looking for 1340-1350. There are many brasses and effigies to peruse.

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm

Specifically, I direct you to Thomas Beauchamp's and Ralph Stafford brasses at Elsing (1340). The visor is a side mounted pivot, but appears more of a globed or rounded/dished shape with a kickout at the bottom.

This is particularly germaine because of the topic of it being English. Note there are some continental effigies on that page as well, though.
-Cian

[talaananthes]

Thanks! Those look cool . . . especially the Ralph Stafford one. Are there any of those surviving to the current day, or any reproductions or sketches or some sort of other model of that?

[Thomas MacFinn]

A possibly useful link (What makes armour "English" in character?):
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=141459