I Wanna Be a Spartan at Thermopylae

[Robert of Canterbury]

Helm
Cuirass, (Bronze or Linen? anyone?)
Greaves
Hoplon (Greek Round Shield)
Spear,
Shortsword
Cloak
Chiton
Body Servant
300 Friends
1000 Thespian allies
1,000,000 Persians

What else?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

No javelins for a hoplite at this time. They fought in tight phalanxes, so, they were no longer used, with the spear taking over. The spears were about 8' long, in comparison to the Persian spears that were about 2 meters, so it gave considerable advantage at close battles such as Thermoplyae.

Obviously, everyone must look at Matthew Amt's site...

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/

And the Hoplite Association...

http://www.hoplites.co.uk/

And here's Matthew in his outfit. It'd be most likely that a linothorax would be worn at this time, and not a bronze cuirass.



Cheers!

-Gregory-

[Gerhard von Liebau]

At Thermoplyae there were allied troops in the vanguard with the 300 Spartans as well. These numbered about 2,800 according to the war memorial supposedly seen by Herodotus (Connolly) but this number is fully almost 1,000 more than he mentions. It's been lead to believe that the 900 or so extra were helots and did not really fight until the last stand. The allies were composed of 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and 1,000 Phocians. I believe the Phocians abandoned their post on the hill in the rear of Thermplyae as the Immortals came up it, fearing that they were the target. They did not take part in the final battle.

In reality, there were not only "300 Spartans" at the battle, but at least 3,000 hoplite soldiers plus their unlucky servants.

-Gregory-

[wbf]

What would period would this kit be from....

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/wbf/armour%20pics/spartan.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

I am very interested in making a Spartan kit once I finish mine..
It would take some work to make it SCA legal but that would be half the fun !!



edit** It might have something to do with the fact I am playing God of War right now as well..

[Gerhard von Liebau]

That is in fact a properly done kit from around the era of the Persian Wars, from between 490-480. It's a Spartan panoply.* I believe it's Kevin Hendryx's... Can't be sure, though! I actually think that if it is, then our very own D'antioche made the helmet and cuirass!

Nice joke, Egfroth.

-Gregory-

(ed. RoC. courtesty of Egfroð
*Greek pan = all, hopla = weapons/armour. So a panoply is the complete set of arms and armour appropriate to a warrior. )

[dartaghan]

This is the organization out here in California I am lucky to associate with:

westernspartans.com


here is a pic of my breastplate just made: (large)

http://www.photodump.com/viewer/dartaghan/PICT0321.html


Make sure you read some books on the Spartans and their culture. will help you i think get in teh right mindset. The Spartans were the first dedicated militarists of Ancient greece, although their culture was abhorrent by today's standards. They enslaved *gasp* other Greeks as opposed to merely enslaving outsiders. Women had some limited autonomy *gasp*. The spartans ultimately failed due to simple math: they couldnt procreate fast enough to keep up with war and earthquake losses (oversimplifaction).

[dartaghan]

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 288#548288


actually that is a better picture/post now to refer to

[Felix Wang]

Gregory is exactly correct. The last stand was not made by the Spartans alone - they were not even the majority of the force, although they were likely the best fighters. The Thespians and Thebans fought and died also, but didn't have the PR machine working for them.

http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/persian/18.shtml

http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/logos7_22.html

[Dirks Metal Works]

Another group that is out in Caid and closely affiliated with the Western Spartans is the Myrmidons headed right now by Duke Dirk. www.myrmidonwarband.com
Maybe a bit older but-Scale armour, horsehair crests and such...our guys just look cool
Chamayn
PS- Dirk made Dartaghan's breastplate too

[Corrius]

Here's someone who sells aluminum Hoplon blanks:

http://www.rlqm.com/furcatext.html


Corrius.

[B. Amos]

here is another spartan SCA group baised out of Caid.The Spartans

[Torvald]

[img]http://www.rlqm.com/01aspisatestrella05.jpg[/img]

Any idea how they got them to look bronze? it doesn't look like paint.

[Sasha_Khan]

Torvald asked:

Any idea how they got them to look bronze? it doesn't look like paint.

They are custom powder-coated. They look quite nice up close as well.

[Corrius]

Very good looking kits.

Do they use their spears over-hand?

Corrius.

[Torvald]

Also that 4" deep dishing look a little too deep, A sword or spear shot would catch on the right angle between the dishing and the "flange" edge of it and not slide off. Is that acurate?

[Corrius]

Peter Connolly ("Greece and Rome at War") discovered that a properly deep hoplon would sit on the shoulder, thus solving the mystery of why Greeks did not use straps to support their heavy shields. One use of the flat rim, I suppose, was to guard the lower face when the hoplon was properly seated.

In my (rather limited) experience and as may be seen in various artistic representations, over-hand spear works well with the large shield.

[B. Amos]

the shields are dished deep enough to sit on the shoulder. they do use over hand spear but not very efectivly, I'm convinced that overhand spear just doesn't work for the SCA.

[Lawrence Parreira]

Anyone in (or around) Northern California interested in doing a "Living History" Spartan impression? Ive been playing with the idea for some time.....

[Fitz...]

Decided to change my persona to an Ancient influence:

Timeline: Somewhere between the Battle of Marathon and the Peloponnesian War (prior to the rise of Alexander the Great)
Region: Sparta!, Greece
Clothing: Chitons, Sandals, Crimson/RED Cloak, etc
Arms/Armor:
---*Have recently acquired a SS Corinthian Helm (built by GuntherofOrkney)
---*Making an Aspis/Hoplite shield (similiar to that constructed by Glaukos the Athenian)
---*Constructed a linothorax (And ptergues).
---*Purchased greaves (from Glaukos, thanks!).
---*Weapons: Will be making a Spear to fight in the Hoplite style ( doru or dory/dori); also making swords to match (either a Spatha or a Xiphos...anyone have measurements/photos of these swords? My source lists them as roughly 2ft. 7.5 in or 81cm )

And anything else I might have missed/left out: ???

Cheers,
Fitz...(name change to GREEK pending)

EDIT: Here's how it turned out, for the 1st version (decent enough to get me into the Warriors of History tournament at Pennsic XXXIX)
http://picasaweb.google.com/sirkenric/W ... 5131719458




Me on the LEFT, fighting against a Roman legionaire!

[Acastus]

Fitz...

Feel free to contact me offlist, as I can surely help you with your kit

AOS234@gmail.com

-Acastus
Enomotarch of the Spartanwarband

[Fitz...]

Fitz...

Feel free to contact me offlist, as I can surely help you with your kit

AOS234@gmail.com

-Acastus
Enomotarch of the Spartanwarband

email sent

cheers,

[Phaedrus]

I am changing my persona to Athenian/Corinthian (still deciding), but am wondering if Corinthian helms offer an adequate field of vision. Can anyone offer advice on this?

[NeeSayer]

I see absolutely no reason the corinthian wouldn't offer a good field of vision when you consider people fight in close faced bascinets with great success.

[andrewa]

Good field of vision especially if the helmet is fitted to you. Here is an example of one I made for myself. This is before I brassed around the eyes and crest of helmet.
Hope it helps,

A

P.S. does anyone have a current link to the website that is selling the hoplon blanks I have one but am interested in possibly purchasing more if I can find a way.

[Fitz...]

Good field of vision especially if the helmet is fitted to you. Here is an example of one I made for myself. This is before I brassed around the eyes and crest of helmet.
Hope it helps,

A

P.S. does anyone have a current link to the website that is selling the hoplon blanks I have one but am interested in possibly purchasing more if I can find a way.

I, too, would be VERY interested in purchasing a hoplon (aspis) aluminum shield.

Fitz...

[Syrfinn]

I would also be interested, but till that happens, anyone have a link to were I can purchase the Big Sandy lids to convert. Working on a kit, and well these do come out very nice, after a little work is done to them. Not having any luck trying to find a place to purchase the lids.

Thanks

[Ephraim1222]

I am selling a SCA ready Greek helm.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=158340

[Powers]

I'm currently working with Master Langdon to make my SCA Spartan kit. In terms of cost and durability, what is the best way to make bronze-look armor? Should I mess around with bronze electroplating? Would copper plating with a Florentine bronze patina be simpler?

EDIT: Bronze-look armour discussion thread here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=159489

[Alexandre Crane]

I have a friend who has an aluminum(last I heard it was aluminum) aspis he *might* be willing to sell to help along his conversion to 14th C. German...

He also has a *sexy* Corinthian he could be talked into selling.

I'll just throw that out there and leave it here. ;D

[Phokion1]

Just a couple of small points. I reenact this period and I fight it, although not in the SCA.

In general, despite Connolly's excellent books, his assertion about the shield on shoulder needs to be taken with a little restraint, because almost all images of hoplites fighting before about 440 BCE show the aspis used very actively--sometimes at the full extent of the arm. This is shown in statues, on vases--it's very consistent.

Using the shield actively requires a lot of effort--and high conditioning--which rather feeds into the Greek style of warfare. You might 'rest' with the shield on your shoulder while standing int he fifth ofr sixth rank, but int he first and second, that aspis had best be moving. A good aspis (I've built fifteen at various levels of authenticity) should weigh in at about 8 pounds. That's with the bronze porpax and antelabe. Many Greek reenactors have built them in plywood, and the results is 15 pounds, which makes the shield tactics almost unuseable. On the other hand, for SCA fighting, a good 36 inch aluminum aspis with a covered edge and a proper porpax could be the perfect reproduction, at least tactically.

Greek hoplite fighting underwent some substantive changes across the period--the aspis changes, the spears went from two to one, the length changed, the use of the sword became wider--and every one of these is debatable at some length, so in general (this is MY ASSERTION) hoplite warfare before the Persian Wars was probably more 'knightly' with highly skilled military athletes int he front ranks (all aristocrats) wearing nearly head to toe plate armour fighting it out--a hundred years later, most phalanxes were composed of middle class citizens with some or all of their armour paid for by the state, open helmets, long spears, and heavier shields. As reenactors, it is all to easy to mix 490 BCE with 360 BCE...

I find that overhand spear fighting--with frequent wrist rotations to use the sarauter--and an active shield--is a deadly combination when sparring with blunt steel weapons on authetic shaft sizes, but does not translate well to HMA spears, and is even less weildy with rattan. Just my 2 cents worth. I will note that Mancialino's manual of 1523 and his successor Marazzo in 1536 offer lots of hints on fighting with, basically, an aspis and a short spear that are totally SCA worthy and I keep meaning to give them a try...

This is our phalanx at Marathon (in Greece) in 2011 for the 2500th anniversary.

http://www.hippeis.com/forum/gallery/4_ ... 32_24.jpeg

[Syrfinn]

Not Spartan, but Greek, I didnt see an Ancient Greek one, so posting this here.

As far as spear and aspis. I actually tried it this whole last Pennsic, 2013. It works ok, but its not premium for SCA fighting. maybe if I had a phalanx to fight with, it would of worked a lot better, but singly, not so much. Which is why you see evidence, of pre-phalanx greece, the sword was primary, due to it was more hero fighting, and then sword went to secondary, after the phalanx was introduced.

I have tried it with 6ft pole and a 7.5 pole. 7.5 worked better, and I actually worked it underhand, reveresed and underarm, which people are beginning to believe was used, and not the overhand position. Was reading a study the Christopher Matthew did with the Sydney Ancients, and have to agree with him. Underhand, reversed and underarm, was way more comfortable, could fight it longer, had better range, and better targeting than Overhead. Plus, like they pointed out. The potterys and things we associate with Overhead, the weapons are smaller and rarely have the butt spike(saurauter), which lends to belief they were javalins.

But here is kit I fought with at Pennsic this year. Still tweaking, getting new greaves and such. But over all happy. Will have blue and blond crest in a few weeks, cant wait to get that on the helm.