I Want To Be a Border Reiver

[Robert of Canterbury]

With Grateful Thanks to Flittie

Books: "The Border Reivers," by Keith Durham, published by Osprey. Good for armor and weapon suggestions.

"The Steel Bonnets," by George Macdonald Fraser. Not much on armor or weapons, but excellent on everything else: the Reivers' background, activities, rise and fall, relationships with Scottish and English governments.

Reenactment groups/website: http://www.theborderers.info/. A reenactment group in the Scottish Borders with excellent information and photographs.

Things to keep in mind: There were English as well as Scottish reivers. Scottish reivers were Lowlanders and hence did not wear tartan and certainly not kilts. For the most part, they dressed similarly to English people of the same period. The reivers reached their peak in the 16th century but existed before that.

[Taiga]

The borderers were excellent light cavalry. Fraser postulates that the Border lands were a result of the campaigns between England and Scotland around the time of Edward Longshanks, William Wallace and Robert the Bruce. The troops from both sides devastated large swaths of area, and an unusually wet season in one of those years caused a dearth of crops. Hence, the raiding began sometime after 1310-1320.
Many of the tribes living on the borders were related to people on the other side. They were brutal fighters - one report I read said that a child's dominant hand was somehow excluded when the boy was christened, so that he could strike unhallowed blows later on in life.

[Lindsay]

I would say that the state of the Borderland in the 14th-16th Centuries was almost certainly a result of the Wars of Independence. Bruce adopted a system of fighting which I would call "total war" attacking the people and the land instead of military targets. Bruce also started extracting huge amounts of blackmail from the North of England (which was usually used to fund next years raiding). The Wars of Independence also witnessed the introduction of Hobilar warfare which (in my opinion) evolved into the fast-paced cavalry warfare of the Border Reiver.

For Kit, I'm assuming people are wanting to know about the 16thC (being the typical Heyday of the Reiver.)

There is very little to distinguish the Borderer from his counterparts elsewhere in Britain, there is no reason to suppose that the typical fashions of the day were not followed (puffed breeches and a doublet). I would say that thigh length cavalry boots are an essential item.

Armour:
Helmets: The best known is the Burgonet "Steel Bonnet" offering excellent protection while allowing full breathing and vision. Other 16thC helmets would also have been seen such as Morions, Cabasset's and simple skull-caps.

Body: For the really wealthy, a full back and breast would be worn. However, for those of more modest means, a simple quilted jack would have sufficed. This may have been re-enforced by plates of metal or sometimes horn. It is notable that at the battle of Pinkie, many lairds were wearing just jacks and so died alongside their men as they could not be distinguished for capture. There is a rather nice jack in the Scottish museum in Edinburgh. We also see mail being worn right up until the end of the century.

Weapons:
A lance or "pricker stick" probably about 9ft long (I can't remember where I got this figure from but it seems about right)
Swords would have followed the fashions of the day with basket-hilted military swords being fairly common.
I'm sure I've seen a couple of pictures of border horsemen using large-ish round shields.
Gunpowder took a long time to find favour in the Borders (particularly on the Scottish side) due to its unreliability in damp weather (Having spent 22 years living in the borders, I know exactly how damp it can get!) so small light crossbows known as latches were carried.
Foot-soldiers from the Borders were also known to carry a weapon called the "Jeddart" or "Jedburgh" stave. This appears to have been some form of bill or glaive possibly resembling the Lochaber axe.

It should also be remembered that when armies marched in either direction, they had to go through the borders therefore bits and pieces would be taken as reivers hit baggage trains and stragglers (there are a couple of Reitter's harnesses surviving that must have been pinched this way.

If I have time, I'll write some more about reiving and the government of the marches another time.

[Hew]

The more I look at some of the photos of the Border Reiver groups, the more I think it's well suited for Rapier Combat.

Helmets: The best known is the Burgonet "Steel Bonnet" offering excellent protection while allowing full breathing and vision. Other 16thC helmets would also have been seen such as Morions, Cabasset's and simple skull-caps.

At the risk of derailing this thread, does anybody know of patterns for the "Anglo-Scottish Open Face Burgonet" as shown on http://www.theborderers.info/helmets.html ? I'd be adding a perf-steel face mask to it, much like this sample shown on http://www.popinj.com/helmets.htm

Hmmm... it's not obvious how you get those Popinjay helms on and off. Are there hinges somewhere? The cheek plates look solid. Also, how to keep the face plate off your face when you push in on it, since it doesn't look like there's any padded support around the face, as in an FIE fencing mask. (Oh - maybe the chin strap does that.)

[nicholasduleon]

Any hints on how to properly attire a frenchman in Scotland in the times of Mary Queen of Scotts?

The concept is that I wanted to come avenge the death of my father at english hands.

I LOVE the combed and visored burgonet, and I have a Morion that needs some modification for SCA use (Illusion Armory and the bargrill was NOT what was in the pics on the site) I am basicly open in it right below the ear big time and I am thinking of having those bits that came down to cover the ears added to fix this issue. I love hiding my armor beneath a doublet and all, so that is basicly what I have been doing for the time being with a bascinet from Ice Falcon. Sadly, and I only say this for the timing of it, I saw a SWEET combed and visored burgonet in stainless the day after I bought my helm from Ice Falcon. I LOVE my helm, and likely would want both as the SCA can be BRUTAL on combs and visors, but sadly I could not afford that.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Nicholas;

There are lots of good websites out there on costume history that show French fashions of the mid-16th Century, and it is these that I would follow. Especially paintings such as those of the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre, which shows lots of non-noble Frenchment slaughtering their fellow Frenchmen with gusto. The event was 1572, so it's only a few years beyond your years of interest. Also the various woodcuts of such battles as Dreux and St. Denis in the 1560's will show some good views of combative Frenchmen (as well as Germans and Swiss, but avoid looking like them. )

For a good overview of what was going on in France at the time, check out the website of le poulet gauche: http://www.lepg.org/ (It's focus is somewhat later, but there's some excellent background information in the site.) The English weren't much of a threat to France at the time, Frenchmen of differing factions/religion were.

A nice tight doublet, venetians, probably a hat rather than a cap, and the like. Boots if you're riding, shoes if not. And I would suspect that a Frenchman would be more at home with a heavy rapier rather than the basket-hilt broadsword more common to the island. Not all that different from an Englishman or Scotsman, really, just a bit more fashionable.

Per armour, I would imagine that a light horseman's armour of corselet, maille sleeves and light helmet would be more apt to be worn by a continental visitor than the usual jack or maille shirt with a target.

But remember, the locals of the Border weren't all that fond of visiting "Strangers". The Frenchman who was made a Warden of one of the Scots Marches was run down and murdered by his wards a few years earlier, as they weren't pleased by his honest attentions to his duty...

Allons!

Gordon

[Dalloch]

The mid 16th century saw the 'Rough Wooing' .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_wooing
Not the worst wiki article, but my friend Lindsay has forgotten more about this than I know, I hope he sees this.

[Lindsay]

Here are a couple of images of Highland nobles in armour that would not look out of place on the tourney field, they are dated to the 1470's and around 1583 respectively so approximately the start and the end of the Landsknecht period.

1st Earl of Argyll


Colin Campbell of Glenorchy

Also MacLeod of Harris (1521)


Any of these armours could be used or adapted to make them SCA legal without having to get out the magic persona crowbar.

For the early 16thC I'd recommend Gervaise Philips "Anglo Scots Wars" as well as Merriman's "The Rough Wooing of Mary Queen of Scots"

[Hospitaller@Acre]

Found these on You Tube..thought that they would be handy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV4qnAU9SH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV4qnAU9SH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_W2ZOsy ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mwTEAO ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgrUPCLm ... re=related

Hope they help. Especially to someone unfamilar with the Reivers.
Ranulf

[Hospitaller@Acre]

Cross post from construction page.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 94#1213994

Ranulf

[Hospitaller@Acre]

For inspiration

[Hospitaller@Acre]

Some more

[itharnon69]

Does any one have pictures of the scottish bonnet that is used in the SCA. or some version of this helm that is SCA legal. Also if anyone has a pattern for the Bonnet i would greatly appreciate a copy.

[BIG NIGE]

ok a bit confused here

As cottish bonnet /cap is the knitted headgear used by all classes in both Scotland and Northern England

Do you mean some form of helmet

if you refer to the knitted version may be able to help

[Hospitaller@Acre]

the helmets are called "Steel Bonnets"
...also a great book on the reivers written by George MacDonald Frasier of the same name written on the reivers

[Dansknecht]

"Steel Bonnet" was just a nickname for old sallets and simple helmets worn on the border. Bonnet is the proper name for the brimmed Elizabethan hat we now refer to as "flat caps."

The types of helmets worn most often by the Borderers were the burgonet (the type that covers the entire head save the face that is featured in most of the above photos), and later on, the morion (having a steel comb and flaring brim).

[BIG NIGE]

Ok that explains lots if you want a knitting pattern drop me a line I have an aunt who knitted mine and my units about 8 years ago

would take issue with you over your helmet claims though the Burgonet is a very expensive helmet and given the NE & NW would need to be imported.

Given that reiving was not a class exclusive past time the majority of the borderers throughout history from the 15th century onwards would probabaly h\ve utilised a simple skull those who were better off having the more fancy helmets.

[Rittmeister Frye]

would take issue with you over your helmet claims though the Burgonet is a very expensive helmet and given the NE & NW would need to be imported.

Given that reiving was not a class exclusive past time the majority of the borderers throughout history from the 15th century onwards would probabaly h\ve utilised a simple skull those who were better off having the more fancy helmets.

Greetings:

Those aren't exactly "claims" by the above posters, it's what is generally accepted as the source for the term "stele bonnets" as used by the Borderers during the period. Certainly many on the Borders were too poor to afford a decent helmet, but those of the "Riding Names" (families which as a general rule took an active role in reiving) usually had sufficient funds to afford half-way decent arms and armour, certainly sufficient to suit their needs. Like the American frontiersmen who descended from them, these folks put their money into what was important to their livelihoods and their very lives, i.e. their weapons. I urge you to read "The Steel Bonnets" by George McDonald Fraser, it's an excellent primer on the subject at hand.

Cheers!

Gordon

[BIG NIGE]

[quote="Rittmeister Frye
Greetings:

Those aren't exactly "claims" by the above posters, it's what is generally accepted as the source for the term "stele bonnets" as used by the Borderers during the period. Certainly many on the Borders were too poor to afford a decent helmet, but those of the "Riding Names" (families which as a general rule took an active role in reiving) usually had sufficient funds to afford half-way decent arms and armour, certainly sufficient to suit their needs. Like the American frontiersmen who descended from them, these folks put their money into what was important to their livelihoods and their very lives, i.e. their weapons. I urge you to read "The Steel Bonnets" by George McDonald Fraser, it's an excellent primer on the subject at hand.

Cheers!

Gordon[/quote]

Ok I am not coming into this as somebody who doesn't know his way around my family name is FENWICK AS IN FENWICKS OF THE MIDDLE march you may have heard of us. and I am married to a Bell.

My immidaite family live all over the Counties of Northumbria and my parents own a bastle which has been converted so I am pretty much aware of my heritage.

The whole phrase Steele Bonnet is precisley the skull NOT the more expensive armours to which you refer and an understanding of both the family structure of a Name and the laws of England regardign the equipping of individuals would help you gain this.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Welcome to the Armour Archive, Big Nige, and good to have a Borderer who knows his local history with us. Sadly most people are woefully ignorant of their own local or family history. Cool that you have your own family bastle to play in too.

I think we're probably arguing different ends here, at least if you're quibbling as to the specific helmets might have originally been referred to as a "stele bonnet" by the locals. Also time period. !n 1500 a simple skull would certainly have been more appropriate for a Borderer (just as with any lower-order fighting man of that day), but by the 1580's, with the mass-production of cheap armour on the continent, I believe (can't prove it off hand) that a more complex helmet such as a morion, cabasset or burgonet would have been more likely.

Part of the issue too is that when Fraser's book was published, the cover had a photo of a nice German Burgonet on it, thus over the past few decades that specific helmet has gained in the popular (such as reads this stuff) mind an association with "Steel Bonnets". Whether or not there is truth in that association can be questioned, especially when dealing in different era's, or even decades. YMMV.

Cheers!

Gordon

[BIG NIGE]

Family history was dinned into us by my Grandparents Borders from my mothers the trade union and labour movements by my Fathers. Local history was encouraged at School and I was fortunate enough to go to a university with 5 History departments

The bastle is not really playable as its converted and a very nice Japanese gentleman rents it my aprents prefer the 18th cnetury hosue in Beamish County Durham to the rather more remote place in Northumberland.

I would agree that GMF has sort of led folks astray with the imagery but the folks he led astray are those who want an easy life and are scared of libraries

If you want an excellent palce to Start the town gaol at Hexham is a good place

[Dragonslayer]

I'm interested in the late 1400's to early 1500's. Would the kits for that time period be much different than that of the later reivers? Also, I noticed one of the pics had a man wearing steel plate shoulders. Would leather have ever been used for their armor for either that or the body? I would think it would have due to weight issues on horseback, but I want to try to be as period as i can. Another question, as the rievers essentially stole, would it be acceptable to have a somewhat mismatched selection of armor from the same time period? Just a newbie trying to figure out her persona. These guys kinda struck my fancy in a way nothing else has yet.

[BIG NIGE]

I'm interested in the late 1400's to early 1500's. Would the kits for that time period be much different than that of the later reivers? Also, I noticed one of the pics had a man wearing steel plate shoulders. Would leather have ever been used for their armor for either that or the body? I would think it would have due to weight issues on horseback, but I want to try to be as period as i can. Another question, as the rievers essentially stole, would it be acceptable to have a somewhat mismatched selection of armor from the same time period? Just a newbie trying to figure out her persona. These guys kinda struck my fancy in a way nothing else has yet.

Lots of questions

1400-1500 kit is very differant to the later midd to late 1500's as clothing changed and the basis of this is the normal clothing so get that right and youa re more than half way there

Leather well its a topic for debate msot reiver wore a Jack either of fabric or of plates which is liek a Brigandine but not if that makes sense. Leather armour on its own has never to my knowledge been found in a context that can be said yes this was used by a reiver

I think you may have a somewhat over romantic idea of the marches as some big free for all. Reiving happened BUT so did normal life cattle were raised trade was carried out etc etc not everybody took part in the process of reiving. A lot of basic armour like a Jack etc can be made locally BUT there were guilds who specialised in this sort of thing in the big towns. A lot of armour was imported too and an old family saying goes

" Theres no such thing as an obsolete weapon, just one that does not work any more"

Meaning that previous old kit would still be used.

So what would you need well a helmet, a cap or bonnet for when not wearing the bonnet, good clothing which for the 15th century and in the US go and see Gwen and a Jack sew on a badge and robert is very much at home with your mother so to speak. 16th cnetury as above jsut make sure the clothing fits the time line. If you wish to socially upgrade well thats easy too

Its not that hard to get it right and if I can help happy to do so

[Marius Brittanicus]

I am reading Reiver by Allistar Moffat...great read..highly recomended

[James Adair]

I sent to the UK for this DVD...overall great with alot of interviews with reenactors...the book is wonderful


http://www.stridingedge.com/catalogue/border.html


Adair

[chef de chambre]

I'm interested in the late 1400's to early 1500's. Would the kits for that time period be much different than that of the later reivers? Also, I noticed one of the pics had a man wearing steel plate shoulders. Would leather have ever been used for their armor for either that or the body? I would think it would have due to weight issues on horseback, but I want to try to be as period as i can. Another question, as the rievers essentially stole, would it be acceptable to have a somewhat mismatched selection of armor from the same time period? Just a newbie trying to figure out her persona. These guys kinda struck my fancy in a way nothing else has yet.

Lots of questions

1400-1500 kit is very differant to the later midd to late 1500's as clothing changed and the basis of this is the normal clothing so get that right and youa re more than half way there

Leather well its a topic for debate msot reiver wore a Jack either of fabric or of plates which is liek a Brigandine but not if that makes sense. Leather armour on its own has never to my knowledge been found in a context that can be said yes this was used by a reiver

I think you may have a somewhat over romantic idea of the marches as some big free for all. Reiving happened BUT so did normal life cattle were raised trade was carried out etc etc not everybody took part in the process of reiving. A lot of basic armour like a Jack etc can be made locally BUT there were guilds who specialised in this sort of thing in the big towns. A lot of armour was imported too and an old family saying goes

" Theres no such thing as an obsolete weapon, just one that does not work any more"

Meaning that previous old kit would still be used.

So what would you need well a helmet, a cap or bonnet for when not wearing the bonnet, good clothing which for the 15th century and in the US go and see Gwen and a Jack sew on a badge and robert is very much at home with your mother so to speak. 16th cnetury as above jsut make sure the clothing fits the time line. If you wish to socially upgrade well thats easy too

Its not that hard to get it right and if I can help happy to do so

That depends on your definition of 'normal life'. Agriculture was stunted in the region, between the Wars of Scottish Independance, and the reign of KIng James I. Most places would not consider the 'norm' for a house for a herdsman to have defensive capabilities considered a priority - not a pele, not a tower house, but a simple stone hall over barn/cellar, that you daren't have stairs to reach, but a ladder to pull up behind you. Normal people in most of Europe did not have to consider paying blackmail, for 'immunity' from raid

Borderers wore the same clothes as elsewhere in England or Scotland, in whichever end of the timeline you look to, and the harness was the same, generally, for the same class of person, save later in the timeline (post first third of the 16th century). A mounted archer from the North in the 14th century would have the same sort of gear as a mounted archer in the Southeast, or a mounted archer on campaign in France, ditto a man at arms, or a knight. It is in the 15th century that the borders seemed to develop their peculiar light cavalry, and when they are first identified as 'scurriers', and 'prickers' - prior to this time, you have men at arms acting as mounted infantry more often than not (Otterburn, Hambeldon Hill, etc.)

The difference in fighting style arising is probably due to the Scottish War of Independance dying down, and an increasiung scarcity of proper Campaigns by the Scottish or English Crowns in the latter half of the 14th century (of, which Otterburn is a part, not a small family feud between Percy and Douglas, as folklore dictates), while maintyaining a posture of hostility, which bred the small scale raid, as opposed to the previous seasonal campaigns by the Royal Armies- this is highly likely due to the increasing attention of the English Crown to France, and the funneling of military resources principally there, requiring the boarders to look to themselves.

The kit of reivers being 'different', evolved along with the small scale tactics of the mounted raid, as organised by family bands, as opposed to organized retinues of Great Lords.

As to jacks of plates, and Brigandines - what people associate with reivers in the 16th century, the sewn-in jack of small plates in the form of a vest , is a 16th century cration, which does not seem to exist prior to the second third of the 16th century. Prior to this, scurriers would wear typical 15th century jacks, 'stuffed' or not, or brigandines, with varying ammounts of mail, in a 15th century, early 16th century context - in point of fact, a broadside of Flodden, with a woodcut depict such a border rider, in a classic late 15th century brigandine with mail sleeves and fauld, and a skullcap with pendant side rondels (and a classically attired knight, cap-a-pie, in late 15th century white harness with sallet)

The border was more active in the mid to late 16th century, than any time prior, and the height of reiving was the 1560's - 1590's, roughly.

The person guilty of romanticising the border was Scott, who turned 16th century murderous brigands into a Victorian cross between noble gentlemen living in defiance of unjust crowns, and the Hatfields and McCoys. The reality of the border was brutal, and harsh, the closer you got to the line, and more 'normal' the further you got away - County Durham I hear was a nice place most of the time - if you lived within sight of Redeswire, not so much.


You will find a pack of border descendants on this board, you aren't alone - there is enough of us to lift 500 head of cattle with ease, if we lived closer to one another, and had half a mind.

[Alistev]

As most of the pictures show no leg or arm protection what recommendations would you all have for making a Jack of Plates/burgonet kit SCA legal? hidden knees and elbows under the venetian ?

[robstout]

Yep. That's pretty much what I've done (not that I've completly updated my kit yet).

For the legs, I have a set of 5-lame knee cops hanging off of a weight belt. For thigh protection I use hexpads.

Arms I'm just planning on using simple elbow cops, possible with the hexpads for forearm protection.

Robert The Stout

[James Adair]

my new helmet gorget and peascod are being mailed from Hammer Breaker...I will be wearing legs and arms under period clothes..here is a link to the pics..the grill is going to be redone in the US.

http://picasaweb.google.com/armour.bearer.say/Progress2#

Adair

[James Adair]

Thanks Gordon...

Gordon, do you have any more info on the reivers role in the low countries against the spanish? I have read a few accounts and want some more information. I know that the reivers were highly prized as mercenary horse.
Thanks,
Adair

BTW...where did you get your sword from?

[Rittmeister Frye]

Thanks Gordon...

Gordon, do you have any more info on the reivers role in the low countries against the spanish? I have read a few accounts and want some more information. I know that the reivers were highly prized as mercenary horse.
Thanks,
Adair

Most of my info comes from Sir Roger Williams' "Actions of the Lowe Countries" and "Discourses". Davila says a few things about them, as does de la Noue, but those are who I can think of off the top of my head. I would expect that some modern writers have delved into it some, but I can't recall them off hand.

BTW...where did you get your sword from?

Which one? The black-hilted sword is the "Dresden" from Arms and Armour, while the Germanic basket-hilted sword is by Patrick Bartá in the Czech Republic. Both are very nice, but I definitely prefer the basket hilt.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dragon_Argent]

Let's face it- The REAL reason Border Reivers are such a cool impression to do is it is the British equivalent of the Wild West!
Mind you- the Border Reiver period went for much longer than the Wild West.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Let's face it- The REAL reason Border Reivers are such a cool impression to do is it is the British equivalent of the Wild West!
Mind you- the Border Reiver period went for much longer than the Wild West.

Exactly. Where do you think that the folks who populated the Wild West came from? With names like Jackson, Houston, Hays, Walker, Hardin, Johnstone, Holliday, Grey, Younger; the list goes on and on of North British names dominating the Wild West. From their first generations sent to subdue the Wild Indians of the Appalachian Frontier in order to protect the decent folk of the Atlantic Seaboard, they were as wild and violent as any of their native opponents. It's great history, that of the so-called Scots-Irish in North America, that went on from ca. 1720 to the end of the Frontier. Wonder why Americans are so much more violent that the Canadians? They got the stiff English and calm and resolute Highlanders, we got the Borderers and Irish...

I always wanted to do a photo of a bunch of Borderers on horseback, on a windswept ridge, fully armed and accoutred for a cattle raid, then do the exact same pose, with the same people, oufitted as Texicans ca. mid-1840's, getting ready for a cattle raid on Mexico. I think that would be pretty nifty.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dragon_Argent]

I always wanted to do a photo of a bunch of Borderers on horseback, on a windswept ridge, fully armed and accoutred for a cattle raid, then do the exact same pose, with the same people, oufitted as Texicans ca. mid-1840's, getting ready for a cattle raid on Mexico. I think that would be pretty nifty.

You certainly have some great ideas Gordon!
It sure is a great pity we don't have any great cinema about the Borderers like we do for the Wild West. But then some of the first films ever made where Westerns (but the 1st was a Bushranger film! ). May be a good idea for Guy Ritchie since his Knights of Malta project fell over and he seems to be back to making good films again.

[James Adair]

I would really hope that the new film..Mary Queen of Scots going into production would mention more of the borders. The 60's version slightly mention it. Your right...a film on the Reivers..fictional or real would be great...Raiding...miss the old days...

Adair