I Want To Be a Border Reiver

[chef de chambre]

I would really hope that the new film..Mary Queen of Scots going into production would mention more of the borders. The 60's version slightly mention it. Your right...a film on the Reivers..fictional or real would be great...Raiding...miss the old days...

Adair

That is because films today are less about history than 1960's films, which would at least make a passing nod to the subject, and usually use the best info they had on costumry.

Todays films about such subjects are intended to titilate and draw crowds of teenagers to early 20's, who are grossly uneducated regarding history (and other subjects), in comparison to the 1960's audience.

It will probably be, however, the first time we have a titty-shot of Mary, Queen of Scots on film. Given todays younger generations values, it will probably approach for the first time in film or the written romance, the utterly vapid, narcissistic person, of evil inclination she actually was will be portrayed, molded as the heroine she thought she was, so at least history and film will meet on some level.

[Rittmeister Frye]

I'm not sure that Mary Stuart was actually evil, but she certainly displayed all of the worst Stuart tendencies towards highly inflated ego and opinions of her own abilities and worth, which in practice can amount to the same thing. It seems as though the only Stuarts after James IV who were actually competent were the bastards such as the Earl of Moray (though Charles II is underestimated, in my opinion.)


t will be interesting to see if such a film will come close to the visual spectacle of the Vanessa Redgrave version, though it won't be too difficult to outdo it on the historical angle. It will, however, probably fall far short of it when it comes down to it though. But it will be hard to NOT mention the Borderers if they bother dealing with Boswell at all. Which they kind of have to.

Cheers,

Gordon

[chef de chambre]

I am getting my 'of evil inclination', in regards to her actions surrounding her husband, from prior to marriage to his assasination.

[RandallMoffett]

Yeah.... not a very nice person even if whe was not evil per se...

RPM

[James Adair]

new armor

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=101456

Adair

[Rittmeister Frye]

Well, she was most certainly childlike, and made stupid decisions, that's for certain. Just like most of her descendants (James I and Charles II of England being somewhat excepted). Tends to lead to stupid=evil actions, to be sure.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Misguided]

As near as I can tell this picture:

http://www.theborderers.info/allmayne1.html

is the only place on the entire internet where the term "Allmayne Collar" is used. (The only other Google hits were people referencing the above link.)

Now with pretty much any other piece of armor, a Google search throws up 400 examples, so I'm not sure what is going on here.

Did the folks at "The Borderers" just make that term up? Is there another word for it that is better known?

I ask because it looks like a lovely toy to wear over a jack, but I can find absolutely no information about it.

-Misguided

[InsaneIrish]

As near as I can tell this picture:

http://www.theborderers.info/allmayne1.html

is the only place on the entire internet where the term "Allmayne Collar" is used. (The only other Google hits were people referencing the above link.)

Now with pretty much any other piece of armor, a Google search throws up 400 examples, so I'm not sure what is going on here.

Did the folks at "The Borderers" just make that term up? Is there another word for it that is better known?

I ask because it looks like a lovely toy to wear over a jack, but I can find absolutely no information about it.

-Misguided

That is a spelling issue really.

Almain not Allmayne.

You will have a bit more success with Almain.

[Maelgwyn]

Try spelling it "Almain" as in "Almain collar" or "Almain rivet".

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almain_rivet

[Dragon_Argent]

I am pretty sure some armourers make Almain collars as standard. Try Merc Tailor.

[Konstantin the Red]

Heck, I was familiar with "almain collar" before I was acquainted with "munion," about whose etymology I haven't the first clue. Googling on it mostly yields partial matches with "union." Bah. Doesn't even refer back to this site.

[James Adair]

I was wondering if anyone has tried to make a jack of plates...or a false one for heavy weapons?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Leeds.JPG


Thanks
Jamie

[robstout]

Yep. I've been fighting in one for ~ 5 years, but I didn't make it like a traditional jack of plates. Outer and inner layers are undyed denin, and the padding is 4 layers of cotton batting. However, instead of steel plates, I used 3" plastic squares, with the edges rounded, and 5 hole drilled in them.

The jack works pretty well. Most of the time it's sufficient padding, but I don't get hit in the torse that often. If/when I make a new jack I'm going to do things differently. (Use heavy linen instead of cotton for the outer layer, and I'm thinking wool batting for the padding. Also, I'd like to do a more traditional pattern for the plates).

HTH

Robert The Stout

[daithi]

I was wondering if anyone has tried to make a jack of plates...or a false one for heavy weapons?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Leeds.JPG


Thanks
Jamie

Found on Ursus' smug mug pictures

[Steel Bonnet]

Does anyone know a good supplier for bucket boots? I see Westland has them but there is some problems that has arisen with him?
Thankye

[shortie-n]

yeah does anyone have patterns for or even know makers of steel bonnets? if so i will be hugely grateful for any help you can give.

[Steel Bonnet]

What time period did they first come in:?

[RenJunkie]

Early 14th century? Post War of Independence, wasn't it?

Christopher

[Ian Mac D]

I was wondering if anyone has tried to make a jack of plates...or a false one for heavy weapons?
Thanks
Jamie

Here is the one I finished in July just before Pennsic.

[Steel Bonnet]

Here is my new hat for my reiver kit

[Amc4005]

So I've been checking out the "theborderers.info" site trying to figure out soft kit which would be appropriate. I know that it's been said that the Scottish Lowlands inhabitants wore the same things as their English neighbors, but it seems that in many of the pictures on that site which is held to be the kind of go-to-guide for Reiver personas, people are wearing the equivalent of the big baggy Rus style linen pants I see used for so many personas. For instance:

http://www.theborderers.info/weapons2.html

The man on the left, second picture down holding the Jeddart Staff.

I also see very many men in what appear to be normal woolen pants, less baggy, tucked into their riding boots.

Weren't the common fashions at that time in England the gartered upper hose with the stocking hose? I know those are probably not the precise nomenclature, but you understand .

So, based entirely on my own inferring, did the Scottish reivers have a more "low class" or unfashionable style than the English? I read that they were farmers and such, so it would make sense, I suppose, for them to keep to their roots in some cases while be flamboyant in others due to their constantly increasing wealth.

Edit: I'm stupid. Just realized they're Venetians/Plunderhosen, the boots just come up to where you can't see the stockings beneath . Nevermind!

[Steel Bonnet]

Starting working on my fighting kit. Boots will be in soon. My fighting kit will have the baggy slops style to hide the abs and leather legs. I don't know if my breast and back will ever get in...so I am going to make a jack of plates. Regardless ..this kit will weigh much less than my old 13th kit.

[Tibbie Croser]

Osprey has just published a new book on Border Reivers. The author is Keith Durham, who wrote the previous Border Reivers book. Illustrations are by Gerry Embleton and his son. There are a good many photos of the Scottish reenactment group the Borderers. There's a photo of a jack of plates that I hadn't seen before. It's from the Royal Armouries, I think, like the other jack that's often pictured in books and on websites, but it's from ca. 1560 and the lacing pattern is a simple horizontal and vertical pattern, without diagonal lacing. Altogether, the book seems like a useful complement to the earlier book. I think it's one of the Warriors series.

[lochinvar76]

Thanks for that heads up Tibbie! I'm currently in the process of cutting out 1000 1.25" x 1.25" plates to make a true jack of plates and now I really want to see that lacing pattern.

[Dansknecht]

Hurray! Gerry Embleton's illustrations tend to be on the very high end of research. I'm still a little wary given the predominance of funky information out there masquerading as authoritative about Elizabethan clothes, but I'm glad to see something new hopefully overshadow McBride's poorly researched ones.

[Tibbie Croser]

Gerry Embleton did *some* of the illustrations, such as detailed illustrations of pieces of armor, weapons, buildings, etc. However, his son also did some of the illustrations, and I'm not sure if they're up to the same level of accuracy.

Many pictures in the book are photographs of the Borderers reenactment group, mounted in full kit in actual Border locations. There are other photos of landscapes and surviving structures. The photos give a lot of flavor.

[Lindsay]

The group Best of Times, Worst of Times also feature in the new Osprey Book.

[Ancel fitzCharles]

One odd thing I found with the new Osprey book is that there are a couple of re-enactor pics that show them as mounted horse archers. One of the captions states that they shot from the saddle. This is contrary to everything I have read about archery in the British isles, and the Borders. Have I missed something in the last 30 years of reading?
Ancel

[Dansknecht]

I just got it the other day. The illustrations, I think, were a step up from McBride's in terms of accuracy (though they included a few of his). As much as I love seeing photographs of well-done kits, there are always a few...strange things that reenactors have or wear that can influence, much like illustrations, how people not in the know perceive the past. For example, there was one fellow who was supposed to be upperclass something or other wearing clothing completely the wrong fit for the era (a doublet down ending just above his crotch or something) and a slew of people wearing baldrics amongst other things. I don't know how common baldrics were at the borders, but I can think of a grand total of three I've seen in English or European sources from before 1600 (and all amongst rather well to do people (Ralegh, A Lieutenant under the late Sir Philip Sidney, and Henry, Lord Windsor) which leads me to think that they're wayyyyyyy over-representing them.

[Tibbie Croser]

One curiosity in the book: A reenactor was wearing a simple breast-and-back that was supposed to represent crude, locally made armor of the period. Is there any evidence for Borders metalworkers making plate armor in the period?

[Alexander Scot]

Howdy folks (whoever might still be checking this page every once in a while). I am humbly requesting advice on armor for an early to mid 15th century border reiver persona. I've been fighting for about six months, and I am now in the "how can I improve my kit and make it more accurate" phase.

I find that I am hampered by the fact that noone seems to care much about reivers pre-16th century, so finding pics or descriptions has been tough. I am going for a 1405-1460 ish time period. I had to choose pretty carefully to get this guy in a time-window where the English didn't completely steamroll Scotland repeatedly. My persona would have lived in the upper middle march, between Selkirk and Hawick and been of middle-ish station (small landholder I am thinking). My concept is that this guy would have been born not long after Humbleton (Homildon) Hill, and 10-13 at the time of the Scottish humiliations at Yeavering and in the Ill Raid. Embittered by the flavor of constant defeat, he would have gone to France to fight with the Earl of Buchan, participating in and surviving (a long shot, I know) Bauge, Cravant, and Verneuil and hanging on through Patay. Then back to Scotland (hopefully with some money and maybe some "exotic" gear) in time to settle in for appropriating the neighbors property every once in a while, and to fight at Piperdean and Sark. Maybe as an oldster participating at or sending men to Arkinholm and then mercifully dying or retiring before the worst of James III's shenanigans.

Here is what I have now (or on the way), I have tried to be fairly true to what I could find as probable gear for the above guy at the beginning of his fighting career - so available to a small landholder in Scotland if he stretched the budget. I'm including a couple of crappy pics so you can get a feel for the starting point:
1. Bascinet - it seemed like a solid choice. Really the only other options seemed to be a kettle or sallet.
2. CoP - it might be a bit early for a brig in Scotland (plus I had a hard time finding a brig I liked). I now have a cool brig on the way that I might try to sub in.
3. Steel pauldrons and leather 3/4 arms - I may be off-reservation with the leather arms (opinions welcome, I may ditch them for something more period eventually) but I like them so darn much that I could not resist.
4. 3/4 mild steel legs
5. Heater shield

Where I would like advice (I figure that a stint in France circa 1420-1430 gives me some flexibility, so please keep that in mind). My goals are a) to look awesome while staying close to period and b) to put together something that an early reiver could have worn while riding that will not leave me purple after SCA heavy combat:
1. The helmet - too early for a burgonet (dammit). Can I realistically do anything but a bascinet, sallet, or kettle? I guess a skullcap would work historically but it would have to be built down so much for SCA combat that it starts to look like a spangen (which does not seem right). If anyone can point me to some actual existing SCA helmets (pictures or for sale) that would be fantastic.
2. The body - any suggestions for the period that aren't a brig or a CoP? Honestly I like my CoP, I'm just trying to get period ideas and the jack o plates comes later). The CoP is pretty heavy to call myself a "reiver" since noone would want to burden a horse with it if he had to move fast. So I have a brig coming, but suggestins welcome.
3. The arms - can I get away with leather and still call it period?
4. The legs - those things are heavy and I got a "deal" on them so they are not really tailored. I am thinking of moving to just leather knees (and some hidden pads for the thighs most likely). Would the period police come get me?

Any thoughts are welcome. Actual armor that you know exists somewhere would be really cool. Suggestions for books or pictures would be great too.


Thanks,
Alexander

[robstout]

Very interesting question. Regrettably I don't know enough to help answer the question. I'm interested in see what other people come back with.

[RandallMoffett]

The main issue with reivers is that they are looked at as largely a 16th century phenomena. It would be silly to think that the Scots and English were not raiding and fighting before then of course. It seems the real catalyst is the Scot succession crisis in the late 13th with Alexander III's death in 1286 which ends a half century or so of relative peace there.

Not if I were you with your gear I'd go earlier. By the late 15th the brig would need be form fit fairly well. If you are outside the lowlands a bascinet would be Ok but lowlanders seem to be fairly close to much of western Europe. Remember the scots were very involved in the last 30 years or so of the 100 years war. They came back and many even had french titles.

To be honest I am having a hard time seeing your armour in the pictures. Could you post some slightly bigger, or links or email me them?

By all means though do a 14th or 15th century Scot. It is an interesting and rather action filled time in Scotland.

RPM

[Alexander Scot]

Randall,

They are indeed viewed as a 16th century phenomenon. The "Reiving Century" was from 1503-1603. However, reiving, from ones neighbors or across the border, became increasingly common following the first War of Scottish Independence. Certainly, it took a while to develop as enough of a system to be classified as such, but by 120-150 years after Bannockburn it was well in place.

By way of explanation for the time period on the armor, I deliberately geared it backward a bit from what was "current" for my chosen time period as an adult (1420ish to 1460ish) because as a Scot this guy would have been unlikely to be able to keep current. Scots were typically a generation or so behind the rest of Europe, even in the lowlands if they were strapped for cash. So while a brig is more up to date, I picked the CoP to reflect that backwardness (and armor poverty).

PM me your email and I will send you some pictures of the rig. The Archive does not have enough space for me to upload the ones I have.

Alexander

[drx6x]

Thank you for putting up this info it has helped me learn more about my family history(Clan home). I'm now especially interested in the Battle of Flodden and Alexander Home 3rd. Any resources you could suggest would be appreciated.