I wanna Be a Carolingian Frank in the early 800s AD

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:29 am

I have a facsimile of the "Stuttgart Psalter" sitting on my desk at work. The Psalter is thought to have been made in the 820s.

However, I would strongly encourage folks interested in this are to read Simon Coupland's article in "Viator" (1990; pp 29-54) before making anything. Coupland calls the some of the sources, including the Stuttgart Psalter, into serious question, citing Byzantine influences. We may not be looking at a realistic representation of the Carolingian Franks from the 9th century.

Mord.

Sir Mihangel · Post by **Sir Mihangel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:17 pm

Niall Mor wrote:I know someone posted a picture of an SCA Carolingian morion-style helm before the Great Crash. Does anybody have a copy of that picture?

Was it this one?

Niall Mor · Post by **Niall Mor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:25 pm

That's the one. Thanks.

Sir Mihangel · Post by **Sir Mihangel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:51 pm

It's mine, I love it...

Niall Mor · Post by **Niall Mor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:15 pm

Do you have any pictures of your full kit?

Sir Mihangel · Post by **Sir Mihangel** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:58 am

Niall Mor wrote:Do you have any pictures of your full kit?

Only these, and I'm still trying to find the best way to hide the legs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11054339@N04/2316846554/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11054339@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11054339@N04/2316846600/

Caemgen mac Garbith · Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:35 pm

Dia duit,

I was wondering if anyone new is working on a Carolingian kit, or if anyone from this threads past has had any progress or news!

I also noticed some of the linked items have expired, and was hoping to generate interest in the interpretation again.

Caemgen,
(Irishman lost in Frankia)

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:42 am

LordIsard wrote:I am wondering...

How can I make/get a convex frankish style shield??? I have never seen one on sale and have no idea how to go about making one..

Borrow a book called The Cutting Edge (The History Press, 2007, on Amazon here). One of the articles is on reconstructing a concave Anglo-Saxon shield using period techniques. Basically, its a lot of work with adze or chisel (or possibly modern power tools if you feel lazy). The steaming approach from that other thread sounds interesting too ...

AlanIarnHouuen · Post by **AlanIarnHouuen** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:15 pm

If you're going for the look and planning on using the shield for SCA heavy combat (and don't mind a bit of historical inaccuracy) there's a method of double-ply birch plywood construction which will give you the convex shape you're looking for (although actually, it's more of a conical shape and not truly convex, though you could make it convex with some quick work with a good sander).

From all accounts I've heard of the construction method, it produces a tough shield that lasts as long or longer than your typical flat (what with the force being distributed more effectively through the depth and the glue-impregnated lamination). I may be building one of these soon to go with my 9th century Breton kit.

And so without further ado, the build instructions as penned by Loko of Osprey, received from Sir Bartholomeu Hightower KSCA of Artemesia.

Himiltrude · Post by **Himiltrude** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:06 am

I have the beginnings of Carolingian armour and would like to add to it. I'm commissioning some elbows, vambraces, knees, legs and a gorget at the end of the week. These aren't necessarily things worn by our historical predecessors. Does anyone have an example of these for SCA combat? Something that will keep up the Carolingian look, while still comfortable. I am skinny and can't take much armour weight, so these will be leather and not steel. Thanks.

Himiltrude

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:59 am

No help for your question, but since the thread got bumped, I'll add some images:

These from the Corbie Psalter, early 9th century.
Amiens Bib. Mun. MS 18

fo 026v = http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/ ... 8057-p.jpg
fo 029v = http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/ ... 8063-p.jpg
fo 067r = http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/ ... 8104-p.jpg
fo 123v = http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/ ... 8174-p.jpg

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:12 pm

I've resurrected this thread to fix up a couple of dead links on my earlier posts. Hope that helps.

I've also added some pics from the Golden Psalter of St Gallen with some interesting details of kit - shields, swords, helmets.

Note the scabbard suspension on the guys on the right, setting fire to the fort in battle scene 1.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:19 am

And helmets - note that two casualties have had their helmets fall off, so perhaps they weren't strapped on - and is that an arming cap underneath?

Both of these helmets are shown from directly in front, the only pics I know of that show this view.

Note the full-length casualty is wearing either very tight trousers or extremely long hose. And he and others in the same pictures seem to have garters at the knee, or perhaps half hose reaching to just below the knee, gartered at the top.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:03 pm

And a couple more shots of the helmet I made based on the pics above. As I read the contemporary pictures, the brim of the helmet was curved upward at the front like a morion, but the back was flat and swept out sideways, presumably to protect the neck.

The Golden Psalter pics have a sort of "button" or disc at the front of the brim, but I really wasn't able to figure out how that worked, so I left it off. I also started making a decorative brass comb with a foliate feature at the front, rather like some of the Emperor Lothair and Count Vivian pics in an earlier post of mine, but my metalworking skills weren't up to it at the time, so I took it off again. You can see the fixing holes on the comb if you look carefully.

As I mentioned before, not really suitable for SCA combat in this form, but perhaps could be made SCA legal with a bit of work and ingenuity.

Dan Howard · Post by **Dan Howard** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:56 am

Egfroth wrote:Note the full-length casualty is wearing either very tight trousers or extremely long hose. And he and others in the same pictures seem to have garters at the knee, or perhaps half hose reaching to just below the knee, gartered at the top.

In the Historia Langobardorum, Ch XXIV, the Longobards are mocked because they "wear white bandages from their calves down"
http://www.thule-italia.org/Nordica/Pau ... BEN%5D.pdf

It seems reasonable to conclude that the casualty in the image is a Longobard and, because they were mocked for wearing those leggings, that other cultures in the region didn't wear them.

Nice helmet BTW.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:41 pm

So, like wickelbander or Winningas. Interesting. The pics are from a Psalter, so supposedly depict the wars of Israel under Saul and David. so maybe the Langobards (whose kingdom Charlemagne conquered and subsumed into his own empire - he added the title King of the Lombards to his own) represent the Philistines . . .

Thanks for the comment on the helmet. It was made in two pieces, including comb and brim, and it was a bugger to make. If I took it on again I'd do it differently - I'd make the helmet bowl in two halves, and the comb and brim out of separate pieces.

The helmet fitted very well and had amazingly good visibility without sacfrificing protection (except, obviously, for a shot directly at the face). Unfortunately it no longer exists. In a fit of madness, I decided to convert it to a different kind of helmet, ruined it, and had to throw it away. Let that be a lesion to you. Never stuff around with an existing helmet - make a new one instead.

BTW, I've attached a pic of my convex round shield from the same period - note the convexity is quite mild, but the fact that you could look over the top of the shield improved visibility amazingly. I made it out of home made ply, gluing veneer together over a former. Unfortunately it didn't achieve the unified strength of commercial ply and I had to retire it after someone put a (blunt) steel spear through it. (sigh)

The guy holding it is a member of the crew of a Viking ship replica that put into Port Hedland where I was living at the time, on its way from Perth over the top of Australia to Brisbane. We dressed the crew up in odds and ends of gear we had - a real hodge podge of eras and regions, but they loved it! The guy is wearing a Vendel style helmet I also (more's the pity) decided to convert to something else, so I no longer have it.

I wanna Be a Carolingian Frank in the early 800s AD

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