The Armour Archive

So, after digging around in the library for a few more hours this weekend, I'm going to go for Carolingian during the high time of Charlemagne (so essentially early 800s). This is my kit that I'm thinking I should have for SCA fighting:

• Stainless (or mild depending on cost) scale shirt with 1/4 arm sleeves covering to top of hips - possibly with side slits for mobility or I may just flare it out a little
• Armour-grade leather tassets on shoulders
• Concealed stainless elbow cops under a coarse heavy linen trimmed tunic
• Concealed stainless & leather sport spaulders
• Splint vambraces (as one source indicated but I think it may have been Osprey and I couldn't find anyone else to support or refute it)
• Concealed stainless knee cops under heavy linen trousers
• Concealed stainless demi-cuisses over leather thighs
• Concealed leather greaves under trousers/leg wraps
• Wooden 2ft x 4ft heater-style shield
• Regulation SCA leather gorget
• Spun-top helm (for now as that was what our group made and it cost me all of $30 to have done) with scale or leather tassets/aventail around on the brow line to shoulders
• Regular issue rattan sword for now - but with thoughts to a more Fransisca-style axe in the future (possibly for throwing too?)

Any opinions for changes - especially a helm upgrade for the future? It's difficult finding quality sources for armour depictions. Any suggested psalters that may help with a Western Frankish armour pics?

GdS

The only thing I would suggest is if you are just starting, get on the field now with what ever you can afford, beg, barrow and make. Your rig sounds really nice, though I am not sure about a heater for a shield. I like using stainless do to the reduced maintenance in polishing out rust and knocking out dings. Just don’t let waiting for your ‘dream’ harness stop you from playing now, heh. I will look forward to seeing the completed project in photos

Definitely centergrip round shield (concave if possible) instead of heater!
No Francisca (this has been out of use by Charlemagne's time for at least 100 years), go for a Seax or Longseax as secondary weapon. Maybe a spear or lance as primary (if You want to get away from a sword as primary).

With the amount of armour You are going for, I would strongly advice You to try and make "high-end" clothes to go with it, as this is really the top of society You are going to portray.

Good luck with Your project!!!

Andreas

Griffin de Stockport wrote:So, after digging around in the library for a few more hours this weekend, I'm going to go for Carolingian during the high time of Charlemagne (so essentially early 800s).

Okay - you first need to look at contemporary pics of what Carolingians show themselves as wearing. Look particularly at sources like the Golden Psalter of St Gallen (otherwise known as the Psalterium Aureum of St Gall. There are quite a few other contemporary illustrations of warriors, and you should look at them before you start to make anything.

• Stainless (or mild depending on cost) scale shirt with 1/4 arm sleeves covering to top of hips - possibly with side slits for mobility or I may just flare it out a little

The Golden Psalter warriors (which are apparently a bit later than Charlemagne, but things don't seem to have changed all that fast) have mail shirts with wide sleeves reaching almost to the elbows. They are almost knee length (though other contemporary pics show shorter ones), and maybe split at the front and back for mounted fighting. There is a contemporary representation in the Osprey book with side slits in the hauberk, but they seem fairly rare.

• Armour-grade leather tassets on shoulders

Why? The only Carolingian pics I know that show pteruges at the shoulders also show "muscled" armour, suggesting they are copied from Classical models. I wouldn't use them - I don't think you can rely on the evidence.

• Concealed stainless elbow cops under a coarse heavy linen trimmed tunic
• Concealed stainless & leather sport spaulders

Both of these are fine, except that I would use a heavy wool tunic, over a fairly fine linen shirt.

• Splint vambraces (as one source indicated but I think it may have been Osprey and I couldn't find anyone else to support or refute it)

No - the only reliable evidence for these we have is for Hungary and Eastward - Byzantium, the steppes etc. Use hidden vambraces instead. And note that the sleeves seem to be very tight at the wrist.

• Concealed stainless knee cops under heavy linen trousers

Again, I'd recommend wool rather than linen. Otherwise ok. Make the trousers as close to the leg as possible (considering that you're hiding armour under there, that can be rather difficult). The Franks of Charlemagne's time wore either VERY tight trousers or, more likely, hose (woollen stockings).

• Concealed stainless demi-cuisses over leather thighs
• Concealed leather greaves under trousers/leg wraps

Sounds ok.

• Wooden 2ft x 4ft heater-style shield

Nope - Carolingian shields were circular - in fact they seem almost without exception to have been bowl-shaped, where it's possible to see them in three dimensions. See http://www.aaf.org.au/Members/lacheadon/conshields/

• Regulation SCA leather gorget

Best if you can hide it, as they didn't have them at the time.

• Spun-top helm (for now as that was what our group made and it cost me all of $30 to have done) with scale or leather tassets/aventail around on the brow line to shoulders

The jury is out on this one. There seems to be some evidence that the Carolingians used scale armour, but I'd err in favour of mail.

• Regular issue rattan sword for now - but with thoughts to a more Fransisca-style axe in the future (possibly for throwing too?)Any opinions for changes - especially a helm upgrade for the future? It's difficult finding quality sources for armour depictions. Any suggested psalters that may help with a Western Frankish armour pics?

GdS

Definitely a helm upgrade in the future. There is an interesting "morion" style helmet that crops up over and over in the Carolingian sources. None have been found, but than no helmets at all have been found from this time and place. I made one once. Very cool - see below, but I really don't think it would be suitable for SCA use. However, they are also shown in conical and hemispherical helmets - with and without nasals. See the pics below. How are you planning to handle the [blench]bar-grill[/blench] issue?

TassilosRache was right about the francisca. The Franks used them in the 6th century. By the 9th they were heavily cavalry-based, with a completely different way of waging war.

You might also try doing a Google search under Maccabees or Makkabaer, as there's a Carolingian psalter by that name with nice military pics.

Have fun with it. The only thing I'd say is use the pics as a guide - see how closely you can make yourself resemble them. With a bit of work, you should be able to make yourself look almost like you'd stepped out of a Psalter.

More Carolingian warriors - see attachments.

And two more . . .

That's some excellent information Egfroth.. so thanks!

I have to get over to the University of Toronto's library as they have a slightly more extensive collection of psalters and the like than the Toronto Reference Library I've been going to. I should be able to find the psalters there I hope. Those pics also are a big help as I've been hard pressed to find anything like that thus far - mostly one or two page descriptions in armour/weaponry books written more years ago than I feel safe trusting.

I'm still keen to find more "proof" of scale and use that, simply because I like the look of it. However, I'll give it up if I have to. As for the high-end clothes, I don't have to worry about that. We have at least 4 or 5 high-end seamstresses in the Canton who love a good challenge - not to mention things with trim, card-weaving and/or embroidery.

Thanks for everyone's advice. I'll get some more information from these sources and get working on things. As pieces are done... photos!



GdS (Who'll need a new name too I suppose...)

Between work from Bachrach and France, I think there's enough uncertainty that scale would be acceptable. I believe that it was more common than mail in Frankish territories... (my pet theory is that the seax goes away as a heand weapon in favor of larger cutting blades once there's no longer lots of armor gaps to stab in as mail becomes more popular, contrasted with Byzantium, where such weapons were never the mainstay) but there's plenty of room for legit disagreement.

Yes, the armour in the Golden Psalter, for example, could equally be interpreted as scale, and there have been a very small number of scale finds in France, though I think they're a little late.

There are also Carolingian representations of guys in what might be interpreted as scale - though what it really is, is anybody's guess. See the attachment (there's another one of these, but as they're almost identical, I've only shown one). But be wary - though the shield and spear look ok, the guy's wearing sandals that look completely out of place in Carolingian Francia, and it's quite likely that not only the sandals, but also the armour, are classically inspired.

Oh, and I've added a diagram of a boss found in a Frankish grave, with its supporting metal work, as shown on the rear of shields in several contemporary illustrations - eg the Golden Psalter. I once saw a photo of this, but didn't bother to take a copy - damn it! Plus a photo of nice pointy Frankish boss, which is in line with contemporary pictures of them (they also seem to have had bowl-shaped ones, but they're terribly boring).

Just a couple more points...

The pic posted by Egfroth under "rear boss" shows a form of boss that would be outdated by the time of Karl. It is typical for the time around 600 though.
There is a representation of scale armour in one Psalter (forgot which one though), where Goliath is depicted wearing it. But this illustration is believed to be inspired by the text in the Old Testament that describes what Goliath is wearing. So it might not be a valid example for typical armour of that time.

The splint vambraces could be excused with reference to Notkers description of Karl himself where he is said to wear iron armour literally from head to toe, but this description was written down long after Karls death.

Unfortunately we have very little grave finds to support any reconstructions of Carolingian gear. There are sporadic finds (e.g. Alburg near Straubing) of textile remains, but weapons and armour seem to be excluded from burials after ca. 700 AD.

You will be safe with chain maille, bowl-shape centergrip round, sugarloaf shield boss and lance. Helmet may be a spangen with or without out nasal or maybe the "Morion-like" helm that Egfroth described.

Clothing can be either along the "traditional" Frankish line, or, as seems to have been en vogue, influenced by Byzantine/Italian fashion.

Andreas

Also take a peek at this article:

http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/A ... upland.htm

The Carolingians are an offshoot interest of mine due to their interaction with my boys, the Vikings.

Heater shields didnt start to arrive on the scene til after 1000.

For SCA use, go with scale instead mail...it's more useful I think. Plus, mail is pretty pricey...sacrificing a little accuracy to save a few pennies is hardly a damnable practice.

Dave

Ooh, just had another look through the Osprey "The Age of Charlemagne", and there is a primary source pic of a guy in definite scale. Also, a representation of a hauberk with side slits.

That Stuttgart image is of uncharacteristically high quality in terms of detail. Egfroth, you always have the best stuff.

Griffin- when I was trying to do Southern Denmark c. 800 for my SCA fighting gear, I tried to incorporate a little Carolingian stuff into my kit. For a shield, I got one of those aluminum domes from By My Hand, painted it, and mounted a boss with it. For the SCA, where you expect a shield to take a beating, it turned out pretty good.

~Wil

Egfroth,

What are the sources for your images labelled Stoup3, Stoup4 and the Boniface image.

I would love to get better quality prints of those.
(My kit is my best shot at 10th cent Carolingian/Ottonian)

This thread ought to be kicked over to the "I want to ba a ..." section

Sivrid

This is one of my favorite kits of all time, i see this guy at estrella, i wish i could find a better picture of the full body, i got some serious man love for this kit. here it is for some insperation.

Carolaginian at Estrella

interesting stirrup in the 2nd pic you posted, "C10GPsaltCavSiege.jpg" Egfroth. Some very nice info/images here. Maybe post it in the "I wanna be a..." forum?

Well. it's already in the "newbie" links at the top of this page, but I suppose it could have a link in the "wannabe" forum as well. Robert?

Sivrid, "Stoup3" and "Stoup4" pics are from a 7.5 inch high holy water stoup or situla dated to "c. 1000 AD or early 11th century", in the Cathedral treasury at Aachen. You can see it in full here or here.

The other picture is from a 10th century illumination from Fulda of the martyrdom of St Winfrith (otherwise known as St Boniface).

Egfroth---A lot of the shields in the pics you posted look more oval than round. Is this just an attempt at showing the deep concavity in a round, do you think, or is an oval an oval?

Griffin, pray tell, why is it you need some 20 lbs of TRL rivetted links? You seem to have this scale business down

Tad

The riveted mail I've made mention of elsewhere is simply due to the fact that this kit is on indefinite hold. I'm going to build a 12C crusader kit first - thus, the mail. This project is going to be a long-term one so that when I do it, it'll be done 100% correctly.

GdS

Marshal de Chambre wrote:Egfroth---A lot of the shields in the pics you posted look more oval than round. Is this just an attempt at showing the deep concavity in a round, do you think, or is an oval an oval?

It could be either, but I tend toward the idea that they are mostly showing circular shields in perspective - some (as in the Macabees pictures) are flat, some are quite obviously bowl-shaped. That doesn't mean that they definitely didn't have oval shields - the ones on the stoup certainly seem to be oval shaped But the majority seem to be perspective renditions of circular shields.

I have a question about shield bosses:

The few primary source pics I've seen for Carolingian seem to lean towards really pointy shield bosses. Are there blunter ones? If not, how do you get around it to make it SCA legal for combat?

Thanks!

Tracy

Though there are certainly very pointy shield bosses both in the archaeological and pictorial record, there are also quite a few bosses - at least in pictures, carvings etc, that are more of a dome shape.

See the guys in the "stoup" pictures above, and also the martyrdom of St Boniface (though they're a little late for you), and also the ones below, which are Carolingian and are from the right century, at least - probably the best we can hope for.

Egfroth wrote:Ooh, just had another look through the Osprey "The Age of Charlemagne", and there is a primary source pic of a guy in definite scale. Also, a representation of a hauberk with side slits.

There is a sister imae to this one as well. It appears to be the same artist and shows what also apperars to be the same warrior, or at least one with almost identicle kit.

THere is a new book in ther warrior series out "Carolingian Warrior" by Davide Nicolle who wrote the one o nthe age of chalemange. I just odered my copy from amazon.ca

I also have been working towards a Carolingian warrior from that period, 950 ad

The only really important piece that is period that I've made is my scale haubrek.

<img src=http://membres.lycos.fr/ledragonet/isard.jpg>

It was a ton of work, 18 ga galvanised mild steel. Its heavy, but perty.

I _almost_ bought the carolingian cavalry helmet I saw at Pennsic but it was pricy, and mild steel... I'd be using it for sca so I put off that purchase but such helmets are hard to find.

I really have to do something with my leg armour but i dislike hidden armour so I'm not sure what I'll do exactly.

Firstly, well done on the scale shirt!

Regarding hidden armour, I suppose it comes down to how accurately you want to portray a Carolingian. There just wasn't any plate armour available at the time (apart from helmets!), so if you want to get the right look and still be protected, hidden armour is the only realistic option.

Are there any pics of that cavalry helmet you saw at Pennsic?

BTW, for incredibly good hidden armour, have a look at Greenshield's kit on the "Normans" thread on this forum.

I am wondering...


How can I make/get a convex frankish style shield??? I have never seen one on sale and have no idea how to go about making one..

Have a look at the thread here for a discussion on possible methods of manufacture.

I am currently looking at doing some experimentation - once the current rush of projects is over - in making convex round shields out of tapered planks arranged radially from the boss, with a chamfered overlap between each plank and the next, to maintain compression in the curve, and all held in by the rim - probably of leather. This fits with some contemprary illustrations. And then I'm going to try it with "radial spiral" planks, to reflect the spirals seen so often on covex rounds in contemporary pictures. It may fail miserably, but it's worth a try.

The important point with this is that I plan to make the shields out of green timber - which, once you've put the curve into it and it's seasoned, will keep its curve.

If someone else wants to try this out before I get a chance, feel free. The timbers that seem to have been most common are linden (European lime - not kaffir lime), fir and pine. If you can lay your hands on a freshly felled tree of one of these types, split it into planks and assemble it all green, go for it!

I tried to do Carolingian in the SCA for about 10 years before I gave it up to join the 14th century crowd (mostly because I couldn’t find “theâ€Â

The splinted armour did exist. There have been steppe examples found, and there is a (golden?) jug found in Hungary with a warrior on it wearing splinted vambraces and greaves (from about the 10th century,I think). And the 12th century copy of the Byzantine Skylitzes Chronicle in the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid, out of hundreds of illustrations of men in armour, has one guy with them. IMHO not enough to make a generalisation about, or to extrapolate into Frankish usage. (Both these examples, BTW, are in the Osprey Byzantine Armies book.

BTW, I once made one of these Frankish "morions" - it was a bit of a difficult project, but well worth the work - There's a photo of it in an earlier post on this thread, and I've attached another photo below.

Some more "morion" pics. Note that these guys are royal or Imperial guardsmen, which probably accounts for the more ornate decoration of the helmets.

A caution - David's and Charles' guards are all wearing musculata as torso armour, which indicates they could have been copied from Classical models, and casts doubt on the accuracy of the rendition. Divid's guys are even wearing sandals which resemble caligae!

OTOH, other parts of the kit - the shields, the spears, the swords, are identical to those shown in other 9th century Frankish sources, suggesting that the helmets may also be correct.

And more -

The decorations on the helmets seem to range from nothing at all, through sprigs of foliage, what appear to be ostrich plumes, right up to gilded(?) foliate metal ridge decorations.

BTW, there's no reason to believe that ostrich plumes were not available in Francia in the 9th century. There were Arab trade routes right across the Mediterranean to Africa and to southern Europe.Those plumes are pretty impressive, and could quite possibly be a desirable trade item. I don't know of any European bird with similar plumes.

I've just been given a wonderful url by someone on another forum. It's got pics from the Stuttgart Psalter, dated c. 830 AD. You can find it at http://www.christentum.ch/stuttgpsalt.htm

NICE.

I've just been given a wonderful url by someone on another forum. It's got pics from the Stuttgart Psalter, dated c. 830 AD. You can find it at http://www.christentum.ch/stuttgpsalt.htm

NICE.

Oh, and I seem to have omitted to put in the link to a virtual library chock full of Carolingian manuscripts, including the Golden Psalter of Saint Gallen - http://www.cesg.unifr.ch/de/index.htm - you need to click on "en" at the top of the page, then sign in to get access to the virtual library. Enjoy!

I know someone posted a picture of an SCA Carolingian morion-style helm before the Great Crash. Does anybody have a copy of that picture?