I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

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I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by Robert of Canterbury »

Those happy days when Harald Hardrada was one of the boys.....
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Post by Egfroth »

Hoo boy! Now you've opened a can of worms. The opinions run thick and fast on this one, but I did a bit of research on by own bat, and my own conclusions are at http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... Armour.htm, and http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Encampment

The first link includes the only contemporary picture of Varangian Guardsmen in armour, from the mid-12th century Skylitzes Chronicle. It zooms up to a very good level of detail. You can see at least three types of helmet, several shields, corselets (which seem to be of mail or scale - however this artist shows all armour this way), axes and spears.

Have fun with it, and let me know how it goes. Are we talking SCA, or metal weapons stuff, here?
Last edited by Egfroth on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Egfroth »

VUH-RANG-GGIAN (with a hard G - though some people pronounce the G as a J, the word comes via Greek Varangos with a hard G, from Old Norse Vaerangir).

Seawolf2k - so you're talking about 1150ish? Lamellar or scale or mail would all be ok - the Byzantines had them all, and (as my page mentions) it's my opinion that most Varangians would have been kitted out from the Imperial arsenal. But the lamellar would be the Byzantine "banded" steel lamellar - shown at http://www.levantia.com.au/military/lamellar.html and http://www.levantia.com.au/military/h_infantry.html . I've made a klivanion of this sort of lamellar, and it is light and strong and flexible (and shiny!). This kind of armour is the type used in the mid-12th century.

The full site, from Dr Tim Dawson, something of a world authority on Byzantine arms and armour, is at http://www.levantia.com.au and very well worth reading. As is the page on Kremasmata, Kabadion, Klibanion. Unfortunately, there seems to be some problem with accessing the pages within his site from the home page. It seems to be easier, if you're looking for armour/equipment only, to go to http://www.levantia.com.au/military/armour.html#DETAIL and then follow the links.

Note, however, that he states on his site (and I'm afraid he's right) that not only are the representations of Varangians in the Sklitzes Chronicle not to be trusted because the artists probably never saw a Varangian, but that we really know nothing about what clothes and armour they had. In fact, the only evidence we have that they wore armour at all is the contemporary description of their being worn out by the weight of their hopla ("arms") at the battle of Dyrrachion.

However, that just leaves us back where we started - how to represent a Varangian Guard with so little information? The only answer I can give is in my article linked above - educated guesswork based on what we do know - that they came from (mainly) Scandinavia and England and apart from a few wealthy ones probably didn't arrive in Constantinople with their own armour. This, plus the statements by Anna Comnena and others about their being "life-guards" to the Emperor, leads me to believe they would have been equipped from the Imperial Arsenal, but that the equipment would have been fairly basic. I doubt that they would have had armoured sleeves or skirts - just a simple klivanion to protect the torso.

As far as helmets go, a spangenhelm as you describe would be fine, or you could go for one of the Byzantine helmets in the Skylitzes Chronicle representation. Yes, we can't be sure the Varangians wore these helmets, but the Chronicle is one of the few contemporary sources that shows helmets at all, and it's about all we have to go on. And I don't think many people want to fight bareheaded. If you want to do a Rus, you could also go for a helmet in the "Great Polish" or "Caucasian" style, (also very common in Russia). Tim's "detail" page leads to good photos of helmets of several of these types plus one based on an archaeological find from Bulgaria which could well be Byzantine, as Bulgaria was part of the Empire for extended periods in the Varangian timescale.

You could have a mail coif, or an aventail of mail, scale, padding or perhaps inverted lamellar. Another helmet Tim doesn't show, but which appears in the Skylitzes Chronicle, is shown in a helmet of mine that PatternWeld posted as an example of "inverted lamellar" later in this thread (July 15 2008).

Leg defense - either nothing (quite common) or the Byzantine padded hose or shorter padded greaves known as touvia or kampotouva (see http://www.levantia.com.au/military/boots.html ) and http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Dovecote_Armour - though these are probably cavalrymen.

Though I originally subscribed to the concept of "Varangian splinted greaves", popularised by early Osprey books, I no longer do so. And the same applies to splinted vambraces. Even Peter and Christobel's excellent article about them doesn't prove that they were commonly worn in Byzantium (there are no Byzantine representations of them being worn, let alone by Varangians. However, there are plenty of representations of Byzantine military saints wearing calf protection. See examples here and here

There are no mentions of greaves in sources contemporary to the Varangians, though the 10th century manuals translated in "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth" do mention manikelia as protection for the arm and possibly the hand. However these were written at a time when the Byzantine military establishment was organised differently, based on extremely heavily armoured Kataphrakts on horseback, and the Varangians of that time were simply used as light infantry, and were not yet being used as bodyguards for the Emperor (that didn't happen till at least 988, under Basil II).

NOTE: I have extensively updated this post on 14 and 15 February 2014 to bring it more up to date and to replace as many dead links as possible .
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Post by Egfroth »

Here's me in my Varangian gear - one in Russian mail, the other in Byzantine klivanion and helmet. An another of our unit of Varangians being inspected by His Serenity the Emperor of the Romans. You might also like to look at Byzantine and Rus warriors at http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/Main.htm
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Post by Seawolf2k »

Egfroth,

Would you mind posting the dimensions of the lamallae that you used in the banded Kilvanion (sp?). I am planning on going with this style of body armour. It is for SCA Heavy combat.

Also another question for you.

I have read that the Guard was issued horses and that they did ride "To" battle. But when they arrived they fought as "Heavy Infantry". If this is so wouldn't my entire Kilvanion be orientated like the sleaves?
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Post by Egfroth »

Seawolf, my lamellae are about 4"x1.5" (or 10cmx4cm), bu if you look at the contemporary pictorial evidence you can see that the is plenty of room for variation in plate size.

If you like, I can post detail pictures of the construction method & lacing pattern. Ah, what the hell, here's a couple of photos.

(Updated February 2014 - you can find diagrams outlining the construction method for banded lamellar here)

The first is of a single row of lamellae rivetted to their leather backing (the reason for the strange shape is that it's the bottom row, and this routinely seems to have curved downward at the front to protect the gut). According to the lamellar god, Tim Dawson, plates only started being rivetted to the backing some time in the mid-late 11th century. Prior to that the they were held at top and bottom with laces, like the binding laces below.

The second photo shows how the front set of laces works (there are two sets of laces - one on the front, one on the back). Basically, each plate has a "binding" lace (which holds it to the leather backing) and a "hanging" lace (which connects it to the next row down).

The hanging lace of this row becomes the binding lace of the row below. Then it goes sideways to be the binding lace for the next plate in the row, then back up to the row above as a hanging lace, and so on. Does that make sense?

And yes, there is evidence that the Varangians were mounted infantry. See the paragraph "Armour and Mobility" at http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... Armour.htm . However, there are two factors against the idea that their armour would have overlapped the other way.

Firstly, if I am correct in thinking they were supplied from the Imperial arsenal, they would have taken what they were given, and the armour there was almost certainly cavalry armour - the great majority of Byzantine infantry don't seem to have been heavily armoured.

Secondly, and far more importantly, in my opinion the whole business that upward overlapping armour is to stop upward strikes from infantry is a furphy (Aussie word for unfounded rumour). The fact that the plates overlap by half their length means that to get a weapon between the layers of plates, you'd basically have to slide it along the body, instead of at right angles. So how's that going to hurt the guy?

Scale (downward overlapping) armour was also well used by Byzantine cavalry. IMHO you can't have it both ways. If there's a good reason for upward overlapping armour for cavalry, why was scale so widespread?
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Banded Lamellar construction

Post by Seawolf2k »

What weight of leather are you useing ?
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Post by Seawolf2k »

OK, what about camping gear? What would they have used as shelter while in the field? (Tent, Pavillion, Urt, one of those easy to build Norse tent things?)
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Post by Egfroth »

In Australia we measure leather by thickness, not weight - the stuff I used was about 1/16" thick, if that helps.

In the Haraldsaga, tents are mentioned, but this may be from a specific campaign only. The incident related is a (rather childish) triumph of Harald's over his Byzantine superior in the Cyprus campaign, with Harald getting the best site for his tents, while the rest of the army had to camp in a swamp.

This goes against Byzantine military manual advice NOT to provide tents for the troops, and not even for the officers, as it loads down the baggage train which could be better used to transport essentials.

If they did have tents, they would have been Byzantine "bell" tents.

For more info on what a Varangian encampment would have contained (at least in my opinion), see http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Encampment
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Post by Russ Mitchell »

If I can point one thing out... if your troops are wearing the felt cloaks like they're supposed to, they've precious little need for tents in the first place. I am still in the process of obtaining good karakul felt for the job, but I've spent a day in the middle of a freezing downpour in Hungary (where just like the Balkans, it gets plenty cold) wearing a shepherd's cloak like the turks still use now and then... and my only discomfort was the water that came in through the poorly-sewn portion of one of my loaner shoes...

Though Russians would have come with plenty-stout clothing, would not such cloaks also have been armory-issued?
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Post by Seawolf2k »

Russ Mitchell wrote:If I can point one thing out... if your troops are wearing the felt cloaks like they're supposed to, they've precious little need for tents in the first place. I am still in the process of obtaining good karakul felt for the job, but I've spent a day in the middle of a freezing downpour in Hungary (where just like the Balkans, it gets plenty cold) wearing a shepherd's cloak like the turks still use now and then... and my only discomfort was the water that came in through the poorly-sewn portion of one of my loaner shoes...

Though Russians would have come with plenty-stout clothing, would not such cloaks also have been armory-issued?


I think that I will go with a "bell Type" tent. Somehow I dont think that my Lady would appreciate sleeping in just a cloak at events . :wink:
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Post by Egfroth »

I'm afraid that's the compromise most of us make. And anyway, I don't like the rest of my kit getting wet. Just call me Nancy-boy.
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Post by Denewulf »

Understanding the theory that the not-so-fortunate enlistees of the VG could have been armed and armored from the Byzantine armories, what really is the likelihood? Are there any known sources? Specifically, I'm interested in the splint vambraces (in the SCA my persona is a mid-11th C Norwegian who spent a couple years in the VG; I want to upgrade my arm armor to something that would look 'right' - I'm currently using street hockey knee/shin guards hidden under a long sleeve tunic).
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Post by Egfroth »

To quote myself in an earlier thread:

"The evidence for splinted greaves/vambraces/bazubands among the Byzantines and Varangians is VERY thin on the ground. I know of only two contemporary pictures of people wearing them, of which only one - a single warrior out of hundreds illustrated - is from a Byzantine source (the Skylitzes Chronicle). The other is from a golden jug of either Hungarian or Bulgarian provenance.

Then there is a fairly non-specific reference in Emperor Maurice' Strategikon dated to the beginning of the 7th century referring to wooden greaves, which I believe could only be of splinted construction. That's it. Nothing else. Nada. Niente. This is far too little evidence for these being in common use among the Byzantines, let alone the Varangians. There was a recent discussion on (wooden) splinted greaves at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ian+splint where most of this got aired.

I really think we should be more wary about the assumption that these were used to any degree by the Byzantines, or the Varangians, or even the Vendel culture. Who knows? Maybe there is a stash of them lying around in some Byzantine/Varangian/Vendel gravesite, waiting to be discovered. In which case I will happily revise my opinions. But without more evidence . . ."


From your post above, I'm assuming it's your elbows you're most concerned about? I'd say continue to use hidden elbow pads, as the Byzantines seem to have not bothered to protect their elbows - except by extending the armour covering the upper arm. See my reconstruction at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ine+sleeve

BTW, I've just been looking at my diagram of the sleeve construction, and I realise that I've done the diagram wrong. I've now updated it to correct the error. Not a BIG mistake, but it would mean the sections of the sleeve would be likely to open up like a venetian blind if you weren't careful.
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Post by Denewulf »

Thanks Egfroth. Yes, the main concern is my elbow armor, but I am wanting something for my forearms also. I was thinking of going to a short sleeve tunic, at least for summer fighting, and wanted a plausible vambrace/bazuband that would look 'right.' I suppose I'll stick with the long sleeves and hidden armor. Thanks again!
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Post by Egfroth »

Yes, even the Byzantine representations of military saints, who are otherwise covered in bling, don't show any armour below elbow level.


OTOH, there are certainly representations of lower leg armour (calves only, no knee protection, and it's not plate armour - often it seems to have been padding).

See here and the ikons on the first page here
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Post by Magnus Ulfgarsson »

How late can you get with occulars as far as norse helms go? I'm trying to tighten my kit up a bit from absolutely random to somewhat appropriate.

I like occular style helms, and if I can fit one in that'd be nice. This would have to do with me tying into a Byzantine / Varangian Guard type of norse.
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Post by Mikhail_Voronov »

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:How late can you get with occulars as far as norse helms go? I'm trying to tighten my kit up a bit from absolutely random to somewhat appropriate.

I like occular style helms, and if I can fit one in that'd be nice. This would have to do with me tying into a Byzantine / Varangian Guard type of norse.
From the research I have done for my own persona (1040's era Varangian) it would appear that the Norse proper had abandoned occulars, however given the nature of armor nice peices could have gotten handed down and some could certainly have used them still.

However, the Rus tended to drift in armor later than other periods and were still using occulars in this time period and much later from what I've seen. While most of the Varangians were from Scandanavia proper, Harald himself came through Kiev where his family ruled and certainly some of the Rus could have been a part of the guard at some point. It originated with them after all.
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Post by Mikhail_Voronov »

Also does anyone know if any people at this time were wearng something amounting to a scythian war skirt or Roman skirt?

In my persona I have the mediterranean available to me as far as armor goes. As a new fighter I am choosing to choose protection over historical accuracy for the moment. However, one likes to what one can towards authenticity within the constraints of "I'm going to be clubbed like a baby seal and need to protect myself."


At any rate I was looking for the mobility of the skirts and would prefer to avoid the difficulties inherent in hidden armor.
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Post by Egfroth »

There's a lovely fluted Russian helmet been found from the (early?) 1200's with oculars. But only one.

Yes, the Byzantines seem to have had something you could describe as a "war skirt". Look at Tim Dawson's Levantia site at http://www.levantia.com.au
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Varangian equipment

Post by Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson »

I am looking to create a period 11th century Varangian guard SCA persona. I'm trying to get opinions on my helm whether it is period for this or not and help with shields. I've been using a round shield but I want to shift to an oval shield, I've found evidence of the Byzantines using ovals and references to the Varangians outfitting themselves from the Byzantine armoury, but would an oval shield be period for a Dane serving in the Guard? Also, about the helm, would the attached picture of my helm be period for this time? Thanks to anyone who can help me.

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Post by Egfroth »

I'm afraid not. It bears almost no resemblance to the helmets we have evidence of for 11th century Varangians or Byzantines. The faceplate is from the late 12th century or even later, plus the combination of a spangenhelm construction and a tilted forward point ("smurf" style) doesn't have any basis in history as far as I've been able to make out. Were you planning to cover the extension at the back with a curtain of mail or scale? (or even padding?). You can see probably our best existing representation of Byzantine helmets here (click on the picture and it gets nice and big).

Regarding oval shields, it's possible but unlikely. AFAIK oval shields had pretty much gone out of use in Byzantium by the 11th century, being replaced by kite shields, which they used in conjunction with round shields. The oval shield seems to have been from several centuries before.

By the way, congratulations on choosing a Varangian persona, from another (long-time) Varangian. If there's any help I can give you with putting together your kit, don't hesitate to contact me and I'll see what I can do.
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Post by Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson »

Which extension? there is a leather drape hanging from the dome of the helm. When you mention the kite shield do you mean the rounded kite or the square top kite? Would a regular spangen be more period?

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Post by Egfroth »

Yes, I meant the leather drape - it should really be hidden IMHO - either with mail, scale, quilted padding or even "upside down lamellar".

Rounded top kite. The square top didn't really come in till the late 12th century - and in Byzantium not till later still.

A regular spangenhelm would be appropriate to a Varangian coming from home with his own helmet, as opposed to someone who had to be provided with a helmet of Byzantine make from the Imperial arsenal in Constantinople. Or if you'd come from the Varangian settlements in Russia, a Russian helmet with a spike at the top would also be ok.

16 Feb 2014 - I've attached pictures of two helmets found in Bulgaria, which was for a long time during the Varangian period part of the Byzantine Empire, so these helmets could well be Byzantine.

The Assenograd helmet is dated to the 14th century - presumably from other stuff found with it - but it appears identical with helmets illustrated in the Skylitzes Chronicle and other sources contemporary with the Varangian Guard. Note it's a 4-piece spangenhelm, but the plates and the reinforcing strips are the same width. There's a small conical piece (known as a PTB - pointy top bit) at the top holding it all together.

Note the Tarnovo helmet's construction - the bottom is made of one "ring" of metal sheet, slightly tapered toward the top to accomodate the shape of the head. There is a crude face embossed into the metal at the front. The top is reportedly made of a single piece of sheet metal dished into a conical shape and then reinforced with metal strips.

There is another helmet found in Bulgaria, dated to the 14th century but very similar to helmets in the early-mid 12th century
Skylitzes Chronicle HERE

All three of these sets of helmet photos came, if I recall correctly, from Medka of this forum, who's a fount of information and a very valuable guy to have around.
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Post by Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson »

I am going for a Danish background who moved and joined the guard, so I guess I'll shoot for the spangen then.

As far as the shield goes, what dimensions would a standard shield run? Were they curved or flat? Center boss or strapped? Thanks again.

Ulrich
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Post by Bjorn inn havi »

I understand that one of the common weapon types for the Varangian guard was a two-handed axe.

How long of a weapon were these? Did they have a spikes on the tips? Was the head of the axe a single head, or double headed?

While in use, did they put their shields on their backs, and visa versa, when using sword and shield, what did they do with their axes?

thanks for the help
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Post by Mikhail_Voronov »

Bjorn inn havi wrote:I understand that one of the common weapon types for the Varangian guard was a two-handed axe.

How long of a weapon were these? Did they have a spikes on the tips? Was the head of the axe a single head, or double headed?

While in use, did they put their shields on their backs, and visa versa, when using sword and shield, what did they do with their axes?

thanks for the help
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The axe was somewhere between four and five feet long. I suspect exact length depended on the individual using it, just as the lengths of our swords do in the sca. But somewhere in the five foot range would be appropriate.

They were "double-Winged" which means that they had points on the axe heads on the top and bottom. see this picture http://pneymatiko.files.wordpress.com/2 ... _guard.jpg

the one on the left, the earlier persona, is holding a double winged axe. When there is a point only on the bottom that is a bearded ake, the tips appear to be referred to as "wings" in the documents referring to them. This is not the Labrys or double headed axe with two blades on either side. The blades of the axes are the heads, the tips are the wings. in this period illustration (http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/HbkVarHist.htm) they seem to have spikes on the tops of their axes, but someone better at period illustrations could correct me on this.
The pictures I've seen show the shields on the backs while holding the axe. This may be simply a norse technique, as most pictures I've seen of that sort of thing has that. I couldn't say. But I haven't seen any pictures of the other way around. I would suspect from what little I know of actual war, that you switch to the sword when you are in close and you don't have to worry about how to hold the axe because the corpse behind you is holding it just fine. That is to say that when the ranks close and teh two handed weapon is no longer useful, then you drop the weapon and draw the others.
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by Thomas MacFinn »

Since lamelar has become the new generic SCA body armor, does anybody have any pictures showing fighters doing a good job at a Varangian guard persona?
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Sigurd Fjalarson
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by Sigurd Fjalarson »

I'm working on Thomas, it ain't really easy. And honestly, most who do "Norse" personas wouldn't know the damn difference.
DaSwede
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by DaSwede »

Are there more resources to look at that are current? Basically all the links in this thread are dead.
Kormak
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by Kormak »

The Rus bible in my opinon..

www.strangelove.net

She has a bunch of goodies there..
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aidanhroarsson
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by aidanhroarsson »

[quote="Thomas MacFinn"]Since lamelar has become the new generic SCA body armor, does anybody have any pictures showing fighters doing a good job at a Varangian guard persona?[/quote]

This pic was taken before I stopped wearing black on the field and went with a more accurate "color scheme" to my persona...
[attachment=0]Me Varagian - Copy.jpg[/attachment]
since then, I'm planning on adding some bling to the helm. I'm wanting to attempt at a representation of a member of the Emperor's Druzhina...
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Athanaric
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by Athanaric »

My persona is not Veragian, howver as a fall of Rome Gothic Cavalry trooper alot of my equip is similar, especialy my Veragian bra.....[attachment=0]226265_10150181762521464_503461463_7356827_145430_n.jpg[/attachment]
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DaSwede
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by DaSwede »

[quote="aidanhroarsson"][quote="Thomas MacFinn"]Since lamelar has become the new generic SCA body armor, does anybody have any pictures showing fighters doing a good job at a Varangian guard persona?[/quote]

This pic was taken before I stopped wearing black on the field and went with a more accurate "color scheme" to my persona...
[attachment=0]Me Varagian - Copy.jpg[/attachment]
since then, I'm planning on adding some bling to the helm. I'm wanting to attempt at a representation of a member of the Emperor's Druzhina...[/quote]

That's an awesome looking helm (and kit in general)! Do you have any more pics of it up close?
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Re: I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

Post by aidanhroarsson »

Thanks DaSwede! Here's a couple more pics... Again, these are with me prior to really honing in our my persona... I plan on adding Bling to the helm using the "Gnezdovo Helm" as inspiration... The plate for the lamellar I'm wearing I got from Calontir Trim, but you can also get them from Polarbear Forge...
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me in armour.jpg
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