I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

[tim_Belcher]

pleasure, you mentioned tbi, prior military or just get hit in the head alot?

[Micheall de Faifax]

I'm still on active duty here in El Paso, but I've had my fair share head shots here in the barony as well lol.

[tim_Belcher]

gotcha. i am active duty as well, just up here at fort polk

[QaraUnegen]

I've got a research question for everyone. I've been looking at all the posts and pictures, which I really love* and I have to ask:

How did the Varangian Guard deal with the heat if they were wearing chainmail or any sort of metal armor? Wasn't Constantinople really hot during the day?

Just curious. I'm trying to get some facts together because I'm doing a Time Travel book back to 1096 and I need a bit of information on how to portray the Varangian Guard without having some reader pitch a fit about accuracy.

Can you guys help out?

[tim_Belcher]

Can't say for chain but I have worn modern body armor in 150 plus temps
You get used to it
Drink lots o water

[Dan Howard]

Yep. Acclimatization is everything. We know that some of the heaviest armours ever developed were worn in the arid regions of the Middle East. There are a few of us in Australia who have worn heavy metallic armour all day in the middle of summer. It is no more uncomfortable than wearing heavy clothing. There are no problems if you keep your head ventillated and stay hydrated. Personally I have more trouble dealing with 5-10 degrees (C) than 35-40 degrees. It all comes down to what you are used to.

[QaraUnegen]

When I was fighting heavy, I wore wax hardened Lamellar. I think the best part about it was the ventilation and the range of movement. I tried doing metallic armor and I couldn't hack it... *pun intended* Would the Varangians have leather lamellar? Maybe something a little more elaborate than simple wax hardened stuff?

[Dan Howard]

There is no evidence for Varangians wearing ANY lamellar - metal or leather. There is also no evidence that wax was ever used to make hardened leather armour, but there is some evidence that argues against its use.

[Thorir Gunnerson]

:SNIP: There are a few of us in Australia who have worn heavy metallic armour all day in the middle of summer. It is no more uncomfortable than wearing heavy clothing. There are no problems if you keep your head ventillated and stay hydrated. Personally I have more trouble dealing with 5-10 degrees (C) than 35-40 degrees. It all comes down to what you are used to.

I'm sorry dan as an x nvg heavy running around in mail and gambeson in the middle of a football oval in 40+ deg heat doing a Scottish festival demo we NEEDED shade more then anything else hydrating was a must as well but using the Viking tents as shade was just as if not more important !

Also i took part in events held in the snow in the mid 90's with the nvg ........ And seeing how we re-enacted northern European culture (Viking) my clothing (& armour) was way more suited too the snow then the burning heat.

[Dan Howard]

I'm sorry dan as an x nvg heavy running around in mail and gambeson in the middle of a football oval in 40+ deg heat doing a Scottish festival demo we NEEDED shade more then anything else hydrating was a must as well but using the Viking tents as shade was just as if not more important !

The armour is irrelevant. You would have had just as much trouble with heavy clothing. Enclosed helmets can be dangerous but they can cause heat prostration regardless of the outside temperature.

[Ruarcc]

Hey guys! I've been looking through this thread as an inspiration for my next heavy kit, and have been utterly fascinated... I want to do a Klivanion for the persona, and I am grateful for the patterns I've seen... but is there a guideline for the size of the leather strips and the plates, for both the body and the shoulders? Thanks again for any advice you can offer!

[Egfroth]

Ruarcc, good choice of armour. Are you planning on going Varangian or Byzantine?

Your questions are answered in posts of mine on the first page of this thread - plates approx 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long, leather strips approx 1/16 inch thick and maybe 4.5 inches wide.

At the shoulders adapt those plates to fit. It's a rather difficult one and you just have to use trial and error till it's right.

I've put more information on construction up at viewtopic.php?t=52942&highlight=byzantine+sleeve

[Egfroth]

There is no evidence for Varangians wearing ANY lamellar - metal or leather.

Unfortunately, Dan is right. Any use made of lamellar armour to portray Varangians is based on supposition and best-guess. Doesn't necessarily mean they didn't, and I've gone on record previously to say I believe they did, giving my reasons for that belief. But it has to come down to your own judgment, based on very thin evidence indeed.

[Egfroth]

Thought you'd like a bit of Varangian history, from the Varangian Voice magazine - it's on page 16, called "Battle Honours ofthe Varangian Guard". I put this together way back in 1991 (so don't hold me responsible for anything which has become outdated since). But generally it's probably pretty close to the mark, though Varangian involvement in some of the incidents may be just wishful thinking on the part of the authors of The Varangians of Byzantium, from which most of it comes.

I've cross-linked this thread with I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD as they have many things in common. You'll now find loads of contemporary pics of Byzantines in armour on that thread which might be of use to you.

[Gùnthaar]

OK I do have a Shield Question, can I do a center grip Oval for the 1055-1080 period or center grip round/ kite only?

[wolf16mt]

gotcha. i am active duty as well, just up here at fort polk

Ah good old fort polk. Fun place to be in luisiana. I would end up traveling to texas alot for manuvers. But that was years ago for me man. To both of you soldiers. Keep your head down and butt attatched.


As for a good referance on this topic. I suggest going to roman army talk. They have alot of info on all types of ancients. Not just romans. I have been a member there for years due to my historical facination with ancient greece.

So check it out and see what the guys tell you about the kit specs.

Thanks, matt

[Egfroth]

OK I do have a Shield Question, can I do a center grip Oval for the 1055-1080 period or center grip round/ kite only?

As far as I've been able to find out, and I've done a lot of looking at contemporary sources about it, there's only one centre grip oval shown in any 11th century depiction - it's in the Bayeux Tapestry, in the panel just before Harold's death - an English axeman with a full white beard has one slung over his shoulder, being struck by a Norman cavalryman with a black kite shield (see panel 33 here). All the others I've come across are centre-grip round (often convex for Anglo-Saxon, Byzantine etc, but hard to tell in many depictions, as they're seen full-face) or kite shaped.

[Gùnthaar]

Thank You Sir! I am going round. Additional question, Jomsviking, fact or fiction and would some have enlisted in the Varangian Guard?

[Egfroth]

The Jomsvikings themselves seem to have been fiction, but there's certainly evidence that groups of the same sort did exist; the enormous round fortresses in Scandinavia such as Trelleborg, seem to have been built to house such a force.

So, as they seem to have been 10th century, there seems no reason a warrior from one of these groups (but not the Jomsvikings, who apparently didn't exist) couldn't have travelled south and enrolled with the Emperor after 988, which appears to have been the founding of the Varangian Guards, (as opposed to the earlier Varangians who served in the Imperial armies, but mostly just as javelineers).

[Gùnthaar]

Again thank you Sir! I cannot express how monumentally helpful you have been.

[Gùnthaar]

Again thank you Sir! I cannot express how monumentally helpful you have been.

[Egfroth]

Gad to be able to help. I hope it all goes well for you. Have you worked out what you're having for the rest of your kit? There's a fair bit of info, particularly in the first few pages of this thread, which might be of help to you in putting together a representation that's as historically accurate as possible.

[Gùnthaar]

I have "goals", I am SCA and getting on the field safely is priority, I have leather scale chest and shoulders that will be eventually replaced by klibanion, an older bascinet helm that will be replaced with a Ocular type helm, possibly with a scale aventail. most of the rest of the kit is hidden, and I am going to accentuate the soft kit under the armor and out of armor a good bit. I am thinking of a mix of Byzantine clothing and Scandinavian clothing and gear. I am trying to imagine an NCO type of guardsman. I have no historical precedent for it but I am a former active duty US Marine and I can relate to that type of individual. Footwear is a concern to me, I was an Infantry Marine and I know that it is important, so I have to wonder, did the Guardsman trade in their Norse type shoes for Byzantine ones? Many questions and little available info. so I am trying to use my "Grunt" brain to work through them.

[Egfroth]

As far as footwear goes, there's very little information available about what was normal Byzantine footwear, and you'd probably be best going with something Norse - the Coppergate ankle-boot is pretty much generic - lots of similar examples have been found, though there are certainly others out there of different types. Or perhaps the "never-fail" shoe from Peter and Christobel's page.

A mix of Norse and Byzantine sounds quite a likely scenario to me. About the only advice can give you would be to look carefully at contemporary representations of people of the time and try to emulate the "look". I've seen so many people wearing what ought to be the right clothes, but somehow they've missed the "look" - they don't look like they stepped out of the Bayeux Tapestry or a Byzantine manuscript or a Norse runestone or whatever. It's a combination of clothes, styling, proportion and a number of qualities that just can't be quantified, but unmistakeable when you see it done right. If you can pull that off, you've pretty much got it, in my humble opinion.

[bishop1]

I am currently kitted out more like a plan viking, but my long term goal is to gravitate more towards a Varangian Guardsman somewhere in 10th to 12th century. What type of shield would I be looking at for large melees as a warboard?
I was thinking of something maybe similar to the shield on the far right. Thoughts? Thank you advance for any advice.

[Egfroth]

That shield is ok, (unlike just about all the rest of the picture) - it comes from one of the only contemporary illustrations of Varangian Guards - in the mid-12th centurySkylitzes Chronicle (see the shield on the far right at the bottom).

Though it's likely the artist never actually saw a Varangian, and he shows them identical to Byzantines except for the axes, it's about as good as we're ever going to get.

BTW, I believe the white crescents on the shield aren't really meant to be there - in my opinion they're just a result of the original artist having too little paint on the end of his brush when he filled in the blue colour, and that the thinner paint where the end of his brush was, faded over the centuries to leave an apparency of white crescents. There's a better copy of the original picture here for comparison (just click on the thumbnail in the article for the full size picture).

[bishop1]

I re read through this thread every couple of months and the majority of the topic focuses on the Klibanion or other parts of the armor.

What are some good resources/ideas/pictures for soft kit or the garb portion of your fighting kit?

Thanks for any help as I have gotten a lot of this thread.

[bishop1]

I re read through this thread every couple of months and the majority of the topic focuses on the Klibanion or other parts of the armor.

What are some good resources/ideas/pictures for soft kit or the garb portion of your fighting kit?

Thanks for any help as I have gotten a lot of this thread.

[bishop1]

...and I guess while I am asking questions.

For the klibanion, what thickness of leather was used. I heard some people say 8-9 oz but others said that might have been too think and that 5-6 oz would have worked. What about 4-5 oz?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Egfroth]

I can't help you with leather weights - I've never had a leather klivanion, only steel, and anyway here in Oz we measure leather by thickness, not weight.

Regarding soft kit, have a look at the sections on "clothing and appearance" and "accessories" here and further, more detailed information here. Sorry about the lack of pictures and dead links - this is a resurrected site from a long time ago.

If you want to follow up the suggestion in the second article that Varangians adopted Byzantine clothing styles, you can't do better than Dr Tim Dawson's Levantia site.

[TrimarianNormanTemplar]

nice kit

[Dan Howard]

We don't have any Byzantine texts or illustrations telling us what armour Varangians wore but the Oderic Vitalis says this:

"Some of them who were still in the flower of their youth travelled into remote lands and bravely offered their arms to Alexius, emperor of Constantinople, a man of great wisdom and nobility. Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia, had taken up arms against him in support of Michael whom the Greeks — resenting the power of the Senate — had driven from the imperial throne. Consequently the English exiles were warmly welcomed by the Greeks and were sent into battle against the Norman forces, which were too powerful for the Greeks alone."

This suggests that Varangians used their native weapons and armour and not the local lamellar.

[Oddvarr]

I read what you posted three times, but I can't find anything in that text that suggests anything about their equipment.

[Dan Howard]

It might be easier now; "arms" means "weapons and armour". Need to see the original language to be sure.

[bishop1]

Quick question on a klibanion. I was looking at leather for the backing of my klibanion, would 2-3 oz work or should I go for 4-5 oz sides?

Thank you for your help.