I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Awesome kits guys. But it does go to show, when it comes to lamellar, no one seems to do the "proper" byzantine banded style. I wonder if this is a covenience thing, a culture thing, or perhaps someone long ago made one, and thought it too much/not enough protection...?

[DaSwede]

I can't seem to find good pictures of the "proper" byzantine lamellar. Do you have any references?

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Mainly gained from looking at icons and such, as well as Dr. Tim's Levantia page, and our own Egfroth's work.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

I'm curious how accurate these pictures are for Varangian guardsmen. Thoughts?

[Egfroth]

Although the pictures are based on contemporary representations and descriptions, they are a little too much of a good thing IMHO.

The shield of the guy at the top is based on a description in a saga of the shield used by Bolli Bollasson on his return to Scandinavia after serving in the Varangian Guard. His red tunic is perhaps based on the description of Bolli's tunic as "skarlat" (in that time the word described a quality of fabric, not a colour), his cloak with the decorative tablion, his trousers and "socks" seem to be based on a representation of the Centurion in a crucifixion mosiac in Chios. In fact, the artist seems to be following the assumption first encountered in the Osprey book Byzantine Armies that centurions in crucifixion scenes represent Varangians - not really based on anything but assumption, but has now become "Holy Writ"

The armour and shield and trousers of the second guy down are from a centurion in an 11th century Byzantine gold-enamelled ikon of the crucifixion as is the sheild of the guy at the bottom. The banner is based on the dragon banner of Wessex carried by the English army in the Bayeux Tapestry. The two-handed axe has the wrong shaped head - it shouldn't have a back spike.

etc etc.

All a bit too gorgeous, in my opinion, and though I'm not against the idea of Varangians adopting Byzantine clothes and fashions, these are mostly those of Byzantine noblemen, not Scandinavian mercenaries, even those in the Imperial bodyguard (if indeed they were). I don't think Varangians were quite that pretty.

DaSwede, I've just today (14 Feb 2014) updated a lot of my links so they work again. A bit late, perhaps, but better late than never. And construction details for "Byzantine banded lamellar" are here

[Swete]

The excessive "prettiness" is why I prefer the artwork of Gerry Embleton over Angus McBride, (the artwork shown, if I am not mistaken). It looks better with dirt on the faces of the warriors and torn fringes of tunics.

[aidanhroarsson]

Hey All! It's been a while in the making but I wanted to post pics of my current kit to give out some ideas.... the differences in the pics is the bottom one is the most current. new fitted greaves and brasswork added to the helm...

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Would this be a good goal for making a klibanion? What about the helm? Are crests period for a late 10th-early 11th century guard? Thank you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50883084@N ... 907605579/

[Jakob Hilditonn]

Awesome! Can't wait to see more on this topic! (posting so I can follow along)

[Egfroth]

Would this be a good goal for making a klibanion? What about the helm? Are crests period for a late 10th-early 11th century guard? Thank you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50883084@N ... 907605579/

That's a beautiful klivanion, very well put together. The construction of the armoured skirt is an interesting "take" on the contemporary representations. It is certainly a possible interpretation of the pictorial record. I'd be interested to find out how well it performs in combat.

The helm shape is good. For a guard I'd stay away from the crest - the instances of helmet crests in Byzantine art in the Varangian period are vanishingly small - and that's almost the only source of info we have, apart from two or three helmets found in Bulgaria which might be from the time of Byzantine occupation or conflict (and don't have crests). And if a helmet did have a crest, I'd expect it to belong to a very high noble. The only contemporary picture of Varangians showing helmets has them with no crest, but some have short spikes and others have what appears to be a small knob on top.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Thank you Egfroth, as always you have sound advice. We plan on trying to make two sets of the klibanion and I will be sure to let you know how it works in combat. How tall do you think the plates are? I'm thinking about 4" tall with a 2" overlap. Thanks again for the help. The lack of crest will break the heart of the guy making my helm, he really wanted to do the crest..... I'll let him down gently.

[Sir Wilhelm]

Would this be a good goal for making a klibanion? What about the helm? Are crests period for a late 10th-early 11th century guard? Thank you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50883084@N ... 907605579/

That is gorgeous!!!!

[Oddvarr]

Really well done Klibanion!! I especially like the skirt... A word of caution, from personal experience in attempting to create one myself, watch how wide you make the shoulder straps, it could make raising your arms push the harness into your neck.

Oddvarr

[Thomas MacFinn]

Ulrich, is that cloth stitched to the top of the leather band, another strip of leather or something else? Do you know if it was done that way in period, or was that totally your decision to add it?

[Thomas MacFinn]

Also, was cloth ever used as a backing material?

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Thomas, I don't know what it is, I plan on using garment weight leather, unless those wiser than I tell me I'm off base. I'm not sure what the period method was. I am thinking 8-9 oz leather for the strips and I'm going to harangue the group with one more photo of my current helm hoping it is period for me. Here is a link to my flickr.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50883084@N ... 937730279/

The brow has bear heads etched onto it with knotwork. Thanks for any advice.

[Oddvarr]

Ulrich,

That helm is cool...almost like a combo Spangen/No-Helm! How did you achieve that? IMHO that is way more period than mine, but I am going to grin and bear it until I make another.

8/9 oz. is what I am using for my Klibanion, and it does not add a significant amount of weight, since you shed a lot of the scales you would ordinarily use in traditional lamellar construction, but it does add a great robustness factor/increased mass factor for blow absorption.

I have to take it all back apart and dye the leather after tweaking the coverage/design I wanted to achieve . Waiting on the dye to get here, and do a couple of tests on some scrap...I have never dyed leather before, and I want to practice a bit first.

Edited to add a link:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 044e694537

The armor pictured in the link was the prototype...It looks different now, way more coverage for one thing...skirt design changed for another.

btw, did you happen to check the raised arm/shoulders strap/neck gouge interaction I spoke of earlier?

Oddvarr

[Thomas MacFinn]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=140882

[PatternWeld]

Here's a link to the original source of Ulrich's pics. This link includes a inside view detailing construction.

http://www.cavalieriterretarentine.it/A ... anion.html

[Oddvarr]

Patternweld, I thought that looked like a great reproduction of something I had seen before . Makes all my praise kinda moot now though eh?

Except for the helm that is.

@ Thomas MacFinn, thanks for inter-linking these threads.

I've been hopping around the various "Varangian themed" discussions all day today...getting through some of the extensive discussions on attachement methods was 'ahem' interesting(?)...I'm happy enough browsing (lurking ) through some of those posts without any input/participation.

So many interpretations, so much conjecture, but one has to decide at some point: what will I do?

~O

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Oddvar, sorry, I wasn't trying to take credit for the Klibanion, just posted it as the example of my goal. As far as the helmet goes we set the cage inset so the aventail hangs giving the appearance of coming from under the helm. You have to make the brim larger than normal, mine is 31" outside circumference, which I'm told is large, to accomodate the inset cage. We didn't use sheet metal below the brim at all, we made the side and rear cage from 1/2" flat stock and standard 1/4" rod stock for the face grill. Here is a link with all of the progress pics of the helm. My friend etched the brow by hand (I'm insanely proud of my helm) using a pic of a celtic bear that I showed him. (Dragonjohn here on the archive made it)

I've fought in lamellar for years, though leather plates, and haven't had any issues with mobility and raising my arms and such. I can't wait to get this made, it's next in our queue. Thanks for the advice on the weight, I will post progress pics.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

link for helm progression pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50883084@N ... 102528212/

[PatternWeld]

Hrmmm I never got the idea that Ulrich was taking credit for making it.... I just had the original link with extra views. I'm learning a lot from you guys and enjoying the thread.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

I wasn't sure so I thought I'd make sure it was clear. I can only hope mine will look half as good.

[Oddvarr]

No, the mistake was entirely my own. It is clear that he was not trying to take credit, it was kinda a brain fart moment on my part. Sometimes when I click a link to a flicker photo album, I make the assumption that the person made or has the item on hand to take the picture of...I know, I know, very silly of me.

Sorry for the mix up guys, and I apologize Ulrich if my other post seemed to come off as a Gotcha! type of thing, it was not intended. It would take an awful lot to tarnish the high regard I have for you, even though we've never met.

Ulrich, do you remember graciously bowing out of a bidding war against me for a suit of lamellar from Damon about a year ago? Those are the scales I am using to create my Klibanion. That cuirass was pretty heavy stuff, the plates being right around 16g stainless, this Klibanion is much lighter and more flexible by comparison...you will not regret your choice to go this route.

I could easily say that your generosity is what is allowing me to go this route to begin with. Thank you.

That helm has got to be one of the coolest, speaking of temperature and design, you could wear on your head...air flow must be amazing. How do shots to the maille stand up? Are any of the links deformed badly? I always wondered about the effect of repeated blunt force trauma to interlocking metal rings between two hard surfaces.

~O

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Oddvar, yes I do remember that auction and I'm glad that you are still enjoying it. Thank you for your compliments, I am honored.

I can't wait to try it, and it will be a huge step towards my goal of a period kit. I'm thinking about adding an occular to the helm, but I'm not sure about the periodness of it.

the helm has amazing airflow, which was a main goal when designing it. (my previous helm was a shovel face with a leather drape guarenteeing a complete lack of airflow.) The aventail is welded titanium from Atlanta armory and has shown no disfigurement at all, plus only 1 1/2 pounds. This helmet with aventail is still lighter than my last helm. The only downside is that you can see my face through the mail so when I'm smiling as I fight I catch hell for it from my guys. Apparently you're not supposed to smile as you swing a stick at someone, go figure.

[aidanhroarsson]

I wanted to post pics of my updated kit since Kenwrec finished my helm and I redid my greaves... Enjoy! Any tips for improvement would be appreciated!

[Oddvarr]

Those brass splints are pretty nifty Aidan! How thick are they? They tie in with your helm nicely. I can't tell if your vambraces match or not from the pics, but that would be a nice bonus as well if they did. I like the earthy colors of your garb too. Would winingas be ok to wear with your greaves? If so, that could take in some of the extra fabric from your legs a little more neatly.

Ulrich, I believe the "occular" topic was addressed somewhere before concerning Varangian Guardsmen...IIRC it is "ok", but still a stretch, if your origins are Rus. Otherwise they would have been phased out by this time period.

The only downside is that you can see my face through the mail so when I'm smiling as I fight I catch hell for it from my guys. Apparently you're not supposed to smile as you swing a stick at someone, go figure.

I got the hairy eyeball a few times for laughing after receiving a beatdown... I kept repeating the same mistakes over and over, and I was laughing at myself, but it was hard to tell given the situation. After that the group got a talking to (probably aimed at me) that I took to heart, that we should treat every encounter like a life or death situation...our skills may develop that much faster for it. The dressing down was well received, and was done with supreme tactfulness.

I get so pumped before, during, and after practice, that it takes the whole hour and a half drive to settle down on the way home .

Oddvarr

[aidanhroarsson]

Those brass splints are pretty nifty Aidan! How thick are they? They tie in with your helm nicely.

They're 18ga. And What you can't see in these pics is that they're etched. You can see the helm better in this thread I had posted before of it's constrution.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=140414

I can't tell if your vambraces match or not from the pics, but that would be a nice bonus as well if they did.

No they are not. The brass splints on the greaves are 24ga that I had in the shop forever and finally found a use for. I built them after reading this thread and am quite proud of how they came out.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=137497

Would winingas be ok to wear with your greaves? If so, that could take in some of the extra fabric from your legs a little more neatly.

I would say yes. To have a more "complete look" I would say yes. As a matter of fact, I was planning on doing that for our upcoming Crown List. I've seen plenty of people wear winingas with their kits and it looks great. The greaves just completes the kit!

[Oddvarr]

Aidan- First, I gotta say...the pics you posted on this thread do not do your helm justice...I would love to see that in person sometime.

Secondly, I love the greaves project thread, thanks for linking that here! I tried to make some out of barrel plastic to use as a form/last, and they turned out really crappy. I might go with the carved wooden last idea...I am unemployed right now...but I am sorely tempted to duplicate what you, and others from that thread, have done.

Did you peen the rivets against the plastic, or use washers around the rivet shank and then peen?

There was some historical information about using cloth padding under greaves that someone cited and posted here, so I say go for it!

And you are right...the greaves do make the kit more complete. Patternweld told me to make them a priority for my own kit, and his advice is well illustrated by your example.

From the effigy I was examining, it appeared that metal was used for the greaves or vambraces as well. I was toying with the idea of hammering out some shynbalds/greaves from some mild I have laying around...hence the plastic "pattern" I tried to make.

But my wife may kill me before any of that happens...I am project obsessed in her eyes (and in reality ) and I should finish one thing first at least.

~O

[aidanhroarsson]

the plastic is soft, so I used washers on the back side... doesn't matter as that the padding is between my shin and the greave...

[Egfroth]

For those who are interested, I've just resurrected one of my old Varangian web-pages called "A Varangian Encampment". Another, called "Armour of the Varangian Guards" has been up on angelfire since before the geocities crash and can still be accessed. There's also a couple people may be interested in, on the Rus and the Armenians.

Hope that's of help. I still have all my pages on file, but my life's gone in a different direction and putting them up again went very thoroughly onto the back burner. However, I've had a few requests for the info so I'll try to get them happening again. Just don't expect it to be soon!

[Oddvarr]

Thanks Egfroth... good reads there!

[Ulricus von Geusa]

This picture has been posted in this thread before, but I don't think anyone really commented on it's authenticity. I'm specifically interested in the one on the right, the "High" period. Any thoughts?

[Oddvarr]

Ulricus,

I like that pic. The only thing I would say about the lamellar harness is the shoulder area is not depicted in a useable manner. The rectangular bands seem to go under the cuirass, which gives the impression that they are supporting the harness...can't really tell if that is the only means of supporting the weight of the whole thing or not, due to the maille covering the rest of the neck/shoulder area.

This guy would be lucky if he could raise his arms into a "Y" position, let alone vertically or circling around his head.

I updated my progress on my own Varangian kit, but I need help with the skirt design.

~O