I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

[Ulricus von Geusa]

To be honest with you, the biggest question I have about the harness is the overlapped plates. I was probably going to do the inverted lamellar skirt and upper arm protection with the standard Byzantine shoulders, but I'm interested in whether or not anyone has any evidence to overlapping lamellar in a Byzantine context.

[Oddvarr]

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... ellar.html

Check out this link, it describes the overlapping scales/lamellar that they found...and gives some references too.

~O

[Oddvarr]

Pics of the second Klibanion attempt...with personal commentary on some of the photos can be found on my facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 044e694537

The skirt is still problematic...it flaps side to side quite a bit. Didn't have much to go on for attachment, it looks kinda Romanesque to me.

Let me know what y'all think.

~O

[Gerhard von Liebau]

This second attempt looks much better, Oddvar. Just the attention to details makes a world of difference. Good job!

-Gerhard

[aidanhroarsson]

looks great! where you get the Valknut roundels?

[Oddvarr]

Thank you gentlemen. I am thinking up a few ways to fix the flapping skirt problem, but I don't know of a period way to fix it...any suggestions?

Aidan- I got them from E-bay...I did a search for conchos and a whole lot of kewlness popped up. The store with the most selection is called "antikgroup" and they are based out of Switzerland...shipping time was not really that bad btw. It is worth giving them a look, just for inspiration purposes IMO.


Ulricus Wulbrandus- Did you find what you were looking for yet? I hope that link was helpful.

~O

[Ulricus von Geusa]

Thanks, I'm still researching, I'd found that link before, but one find that might be overlapped lamellar isn't enough to contradict all of the icons we have that show it otherwise. The shape seems slightly questionable to me as well. I think I might just end up doing a kilbanion based around Egfroth and Dr. Dawson's research. I just need to decide if I want to do a portrayal based on a Varangian or an actual Byzantine Noble. On that topic, I know the guard were mostly composed of Scandanavians, Rus and Anglo-Saxons, but what other nationalities might have been represtented? (Basically, can I get away with not changing my German Persona and still do a Guardsman?)

I'm not entirely sure I understand your problem with the skirt, It flaps side to side as you move? Your kilbanion is looking pretty sweet though.

[Egfroth]

You could be a Nemetzos (plural Nemetzoi) - a unit of Germanic guards in Constantinople - they were the ones Alexios Komnenos bribed to let him into the City to sieze the Imperium and become emperor himself. He didn't bother with the Varangians (or the Athanatoi) because he knew they were too honorable to be bribed.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Oddvar, I really like your second incarnation, inspires me to get cracking on mine. How many plates are in your rig? How wide are the leather strips and how large are the plates? I'm thinking 6" strips of leather with the 4" plate, but starting to think 5" on the leather may work better. Thanks and keep it up!

[Oddvarr]

Ulrich, thank you for the high compliment.

At this stage, there are 98 plates. However, the shoulders are not done yet. I estimate only 15-20 or so per arm. They are 3" x 1.75" but if you are going at this from scratch, without any plates on hand, I would seriously think about your hole pattern and optimal plate size first.

For instance, my leather bands are 3" wide, and you can tell from one of the interior pics that the plate under/overlap is marginal.

I "made do" with what I had on hand, but if given the choice I would have purchased a combination of similarly sized plates, and much longer plates that could have been trimmed for a contoured look, like some of the other rigs have out there. This is noticeable around the armpit, neck and groin regoins.

You can save on weight, and cost, by not using the 8/9 oz. leather I did...probably 5/6oz. would do just as nicely, without sacrificing too much protective quality/durability. You might also consider chrome tanned or pre-dyed leather in your choice of colors instead of dyeing it yourself.

I don't like the way the skirt turned out...I fought in it this week and it is too long, and too rigid...sticks out like / \ . I am toying with the idea of turning the pturges sideways, and doing a fauld-like construction instead. Or just doing away with leather entirely and making it out of maille.

~O

[Len Parker]

In case you missed this, this was on the link posted by Oddvarr http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... fences.htm

[Oddvarr]

That site is chock full of awesome information on both hard and soft kit.

Len- thanks for re-posting with a different page link...if you go to their home page, there are just some awesome sub-categories to choose from...

Takes a lot of reinventing the wheel type of stuff and chucks it out the window!

~O

[Ulfarr91]

Righto, Long time lurker on this thread here...

In an effort to upgrade my VG persona, and generally just look snazzy, I want to make the klibanion/banded lamellar like the ones on here - not really a veteran armour maker though - can anyone perhaps provide a guide on how to construct one? I think I get the basic ideaof riveting the plates (1.2mm mild steel...laser cut...or should that be lazy cut) to a 2 to 4 mm leather backing. Will probably make the plates 4 inches long, 2 inches wide, and overlap by around half.

In particular, it's the lacing that's vexing me. I can't seem to fathom it too well from the pictures.

Any help you guys can offer is appreciated .

Ulfarr.

[Oddvarr]

Hey Ulfarr,

The lacing is no real mystery, you need to adapt your pattern to the existing holes on your plates. If you don't have plates yet, then you can order, or make, to whatever specifications you want.

The more you overlap, the heavier your rig gets. If you articulate it so it can compress to cover half, but hangs covering about a quarter to a third, you will get more mileage on your materials and save some money in leather too.

One of the cool factors of the Klibanion Egfroth made is it's ability to articulate between the bands. Go back and look the lacing diagram he posted. If you look at the pics I have on Facebook, you can see how I made do with the plates I have.... they are 3" x 1.75" tombstone shaped stainless steel. A couple of the pics detail the articulation, and the lacing too.

IMHO the articulation is icing on the cake... not sure about documentability, but you already read about all that hoopla since you've been lurking .

What I made was inspired by Egfroth, and iconography, but I did not articulate between every band. I did not rivet my plates because my hole pattern would have made that impractical. The top of my plates have two side by side holes instead of one.

Good luck,

Oddvarr

[Ulfarr91]

Thanks for the advice! Helps a lot.

I still can't quite get my head around how Egfroth did his lacing though, total brain fart occurring, and I can only find a diagram of his sleeves .

Hopefully he will appear like some santa-like figure and clear things up!

[daggrim2]

I've been following these posts for a long time, planning out making a Klibanion. I ordered the lamellae from Thorvaldr, and finally finished the armor. It's not the type made from the leather strips with the plates attached to them, which seems to be considered the more accurate style. I chose the other style, with the plates just laced to one another, which I prefer the look of. I had a whole file folder of info i collected over about a year, and used it all for reference. I love to just wear it around the house, it's so comfortable. It holds me in an upright posture, so I can just sag inside it, and let my belly go, and it just holds me up and supports me. Like a snail. I must have a lazy streak in me.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Daggrim, looks good.

Between the style of lamellar you've chosen to make and your helmet, I dare say you look much more like a typical Rus of the 10th or 11th century. Many would have served with the Varangian guard, though, and weaponry from home was probably sentimental and distinguishing for guardsmen, not to mention possibly of higher quality than much of what would be available. I think that the setup you're working on will work well.

-Gerhard

[daggrim2]

Thanks Gerhard, yup, Rus is more what I was aiming for.
Can you help me with a problem? I often can't view attached pictures. There is just a box with information about the picture, but I can't get the picture to display. It seems sporadic, in a thread, some pics are there, and some aren't.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

If the picture is too large it won't display. You have to click the jpeg link provided - it will be blue.

-Gerhard

[barcuk]

Daggrim, Nice looking Rus kit. Your chainmail links look very large. What size are they?

[Ulfarr91]

Nice looking lamellar there!

How are you finding the flexibility? I have a set of the laced-together kind currently and one of the main reasons I wanted to get rid of it (aside from it being poorly put together and whatnot!) is that when laced together it might as well be a rigid plate structure for all the flex it carries. Hence why when I heard about Egfroth's articulated klibanion I was drooling!

[daggrim2]

Gerhard, it's other peoples pictures, too. Also, sometimes I can see a pic, and other times it's just the info box. No active links in there, either. Very frustrating.
Barcuk, they're big 1/2" ID rings, but they're double rings...what I've heard referred to as King's Mail. So it's a coarse weave, but also a dense weave. I traded a guy a helmet for it. It was an unfinished hauberk, and it just comes down to my shoulder blades and my sternum, so it wasn't good for anything except hiding under some lamellar. Getting that half-hauberk is what inspired me to go with the Rus look...I just hadda use that mail somehow!

[Oddvarr]

Daggrim2, that's a great way to utilize something like that.

When I first saw the pics of your maille, I had to do a double take myself...your explanation makes sense.

Another nice thing about your lamellar cuirass, besides the beautiful color, is that it is pretty lightweight as opposed to a metal construction.

If you got yourself a nice chain skirt to go with that, you would look friggin' spectacular.

I love the Rus pointed 4 panel spangen, is that a dress helm, or do you do something else besides SCA?

Ulfarr91, you are spot on about the articulation issue, but a full leather lamellar cuirass will have more give than that of metal plates. The klibanion I made articulates fairly well...a truly awesome property of that style of armor. "It is so choice, I highly recommend it" Ferris Bueller

Oddvarr

[Ulfarr91]

Has anyone in here put the banded style up to some proper sword/spear/bow tests? I assume it stands up well to SCA or re-enactment combat but just curious otherwise.

Either way, steel is ordered, tracking down a laser cutter, and will be dropping by TORM in march to buy dead cow skin .

Sloooooowly creeping closer to authentic kit. So slowly. Poor students are period authentic, right?

[daggrim2]

Ulfarr, it has some flexibility, but not much. It stretches about an inch laterally, so I can get a good breath, and about an inch vertically, so I can compress or stretch it a little. Mainly I just bend from the hips. The plates do not bend at all, so it's all in the lacing. I laced it all snug, and there was enough play in everything that it's just right. I cut the top neck panels so I wouldn't crush my esophagus if I fell wrong.

[daggrim2]

Oddvar, the helm is a Norman helm that I had Jackie make the finial for. It's not SCA legal, but it is acceptable with a Viking group of rebated steel fighters, known as Skjaldborg (Shieldwall). I have very little fighting experience, but I'm getting ready to join them on the field this year with all my new gear. Funny how SCA fighting can be so much more painful than live steel. It's taken me years, too, creeping towards authenticity. That's why it made me feel great when you recognized the Rus look.

[Ulfarr91]

Actually, while i'm here, do you think if I explained whereabouts my kit was now, you fine fellows could point me in the direction of where i'd need to be aiming at for a higher level of authenticity?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Absolutely, Ulfarr. If you aren't aiming exactly for a Varangian Guardsmen in the 11th century, I would suggest posting your description (and pictures are great) in one of the "Critique my kit" threads, available here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=142142

[Ulfarr91]

I can do, though I am currently in the midst of making a few things, so will probably wait 'till those are done before I post a pic up, I think, if we include the stuff I am making, by around june I should have. (I'm actually aiming for more turn of the century than 1040 and always envisioned ulfarr as a scandanavian rather than rus')

Generic viking turnshoes from whichever particular trader catches my attention,
Black wool trousers made from a generic regia anglorum pattern (hand sewn)
Undyed linen undertunic,
Weld/saffron yellow kyrtle with some tablet weave decoration (hand sewn)
Fancy belt with bronze fittings
Red wool cloak
Round plywood shield, faced in canvas, edged in leather,
Klibanion made as close to egfroth's as I can damn well manage
Machine sewn long padded coat (kabadia?) made from quite a bright red canvas.

Also two items of kit which are in no way going to end up period, but are sort of a compromise to SCA rules;

Helm - tried to get it to look like some period examples but obviously we have to get it to cover bits they normally wouldn't for safety.
Steel elbow and knee cops, including shin and lower arm splints made from steel strips riveted to a *cough* leather-looking material. (I know from a bit of browsing there seems to be extremely thin evidence on the ground for arm/leg armour, but as I have to have some for SCA, it seemed a slightly prettier idea than hiding some plastic.

[Turstan]

Looking to get plates made for a Banded Lamellar harness and trying to get an idea for some numbers. Would anyone mind posting rough plate counts and the size of the plates for a full klibanion (ideally accounting for skirt and some form of shoulder protection to mid upper-arm area)? It would be greatly appreciated!

[daggrim2]

The klibanion in my picture is made up of 250 plates, 2.5 by 1.75 inches.

[Ulfarr91]

How much leather hide did everyone use in making their klibanions? I am trying to work out just how much I need to be ordering...

[Oddvarr]

Ulfarr, it really depends on the size and shape of your plates, and what you want to cover, how much overlap and articulation you are shooting for, etc.

Did you make those plates yet?

When I did mine, I used three inch wide straps of 8-9oz. that were 48" long. That allowed my 3" long plates to be offset on the leather about 3/8 inch from the top, which shows off the leather, and also exposes the bottom hole on my plates. These holes were not used for anything until I got to the bottom row.

I aimed at covering my torso, and possibly my upper arms, and then I made a skirt of pturuges that became non-functional (the way I put it together).

I recently became the proud owner of a 6mm flat ring riveted blackened maille hauberk, and when worn together with the Klibanion it makes me soooo frickin' top heavy it's laughable! I am still working on getting strong enough, and loosing enough weight as to not notice the armor, but the two in combination weigh about 45 lbs alone...never mind helm and shield, vambraces and legs....probably 60+ lbs all told.

I can fight in it, but I find myself puffing like a bellows after a mere ten minutes of practice. If I die on my back, I have to roll over to my knees to get up...even with just the maille on. So out of shape ...

Keep on keepin' on,

~O

[Ulfarr91]

Got the steel sheet, pretty much just waiting on the laser cutter to become free!

My particular plates are four inches long, and two inches wide. I've been reccomended to have them overlap by about a third, so that's what i'll probably be going for. I would say i'm pretty average in weight for my height (6'1"), maybe a high 40's inch chest with my padded kabadion on. Price will always be an issue with the leather though - I for sure want to cover the torso, chest and shoulders....if there's extra left for other bits, it's a bonus but not essential.

I'll be going for columbo sides from le prevo leathers....good price, and they are about 3mm thick, veg tan. They do them in hides of around 13sq feet...which I hope should be enough! (Though I am actually terrible at maths, feel free to correct me.)

I feel your pain about top heavyness . When I first started fighting in steel kit I would get tired so quickly. Seeing as I also want a rivited maille hauberk, probably for my birthday, i'll be where you are around july .

I do have a plan though...I am actually going to go to the gym in my armour, or at least go for a run around the local woodlands. I will either A) die, or B) become ripped like a norse god . Guess which one my money is on...

On the plus side, who the hell is going to tell me no when i'm in that much kit

-Ulfarr.

[Oddvarr]

I do have a plan though...I am actually going to go to the gym in my armour, or at least go for a run around the local woodlands. I will either A) die, or B) become ripped like a norse god . Guess which one my money is on...

On the plus side, who the hell is going to tell me no when i'm in that much kit

-Ulfarr.

clipped for brevity...

I laughed my ass off reading this! Thanks!!

I guess the only issue would be hydration, and letting somebody know your route and expected return time...Not a bad idea overall, though I would make sure your rust prevention measures are top notch .

~O