I WTB a Varangian Guardsman in 1040

[Egfroth]

An excellent article on the vexed question of Varangian/Byzantine limb defences - here.

[Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson]

Very good site, thanks for posting it.

[Ulfarr91]

Has anyone ever done a decent beginners guide for the byzantine klibanions? I can only really afford to do this once so i'd rather get it right .

As for the limbs, if its for SCA you could always make a long padded coat and just reinforce it at the forearm with whatever material...sewing secret pockets within the coat itself and sliding plastic plates in worked well for me.

[Egfroth]

Well, the lacing pattern is here - both for the klivanion and for my reconstruction of a Byzantine pauldron and armoured sleeve. Somewhere I have photos of my own klivanion showing the lacing both back and front, plus the fastening method I used. Can't vouch for its historical accuracy - but then nobody else can either - the information is simply not available because of the lack of finds.

Added 16 Feb 2014 - Just a point with the lacing between the rows, particularly as a reply to the post of 21 Jan 2012 by daggrim2 on the previous page in this thread; it's supposed to be fairly loose, so the layers of plates can move with respect to each other. It means you can bend and stretch very flexibly without sacrificing protection, unlike the rigidity of a conventional breastplate. The danger of the layers opening up like a venetian blind is prevented by the second set of laces at the back. I've worn my klivanion for years with very good flexibility and never a "venetian blind episode".

[Turstan]

Has anyone discovered on the archive a decent source for how to mix clothing/soft kit styles between viking (or the later anglo-saxon) and byzantine? Trying to decide how I'd like to execute the mix, what items I feel would have been kept because of honor or nostalgia, what I'd pick up from the locals, etc. Just trying to develop a look and set of habits and gear for those rare times between armor.

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Hey Egfroth, any thoughts about the quote attributed to Phokas in "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth" regarding arm defenses? From the kataphraktoi section where he says,

"To protect their hands and forearms they wore combined gauntlets and armguards (word I can't type here) made from pieces of coarse silk or cotton as thick as could be stitched together."

Have you or Dr. Tim attempted a recreation of these? I'm having difficulty imagining exactly how these would look.

[Ulfarr91]

Ok! I have lots of 2.5mm thick leather hide...I have 320 1.2mm steel scales...I have a hell of a lot of leather thonging and copper nails...

Wish me luck, i'm going in...

[Ulfarr91]

How have the lamellar assembled in this way performed in SCA heavy combat, for those of you who have used it? I don't know much about how armour works, but I would assume very well when you consider it's like being hit on double the thickness of whatever steel you used, plus the leather...not to mention of the plates overlap going down it should transfer the force away...

Probably heavy I guess, but I'm hardly going to build muscle fighting in plastic

[Egfroth]

Hey Egfroth, any thoughts about the quote attributed to Phokas in "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth" regarding arm defenses? From the kataphraktoi section where he says,

"To protect their hands and forearms they wore combined gauntlets and armguards (word I can't type here) made from pieces of coarse silk or cotton as thick as could be stitched together."

Have you or Dr. Tim attempted a recreation of these? I'm having difficulty imagining exactly how these would look.

This is an interesting idea. The problem is that a lot of it’s based on interpretation from very little information.

The word McGeer translates simply as “sleeves” is in Phokas manika.

The Greek word he uses in your quote above, used by Phokas for kataphrakt’s protective sleeves is manikelia, which in his translation of Phokas' original treatise McGeer calls “arm guards”, but in his outline later in the book he states are “combined gauntlets and arm guards”.

This idea is probably taken from Ouranos’ slightly later treatise calling the same thing kheiropsella – kheir means “hand”, and the nearest word to psella in my Greek lexicon means something like “bracelets”, so kheiropsella means something like “hand bracelets”. There’s been a fair bit written on the subject, particularly by Professor Taxiarchis Kolias, and the general agreement is that these are a combination of protection for both arm and hand. But really, this is based upon a single word - kheiropsella.

Phokas (and Ouranos) also state that these protective sleeves should have zabai over them. This word has not been properly defined – in the tenth century it must have been so well known that nobody bothered to explain what it meant – it has been generally agreed to mean pieces of maille – or perhaps just of armour, of whatever description.

No, I haven't tried a reconstruction and as far as I know Tim Dawson hasn't either. As far as how they should be made or what form they should take, your guess is as good as mine. Have a bash and see how they turn out. Nobody can criticise you for getting it wrong – nobody knows what they were like, so as long as you follow the description as closely as you can, your interpretation is as good as anyone else’s.

Note, however Peter and Christobel's page here which goes into the construction of manikelia and proposes a possible example.

[Oddvarr]

How have the lamellar assembled in this way performed in SCA heavy combat, for those of you who have used it? I don't know much about how armour works, but I would assume very well when you consider it's like being hit on double the thickness of whatever steel you used, plus the leather...not to mention of the plates overlap going down it should transfer the force away...

Probably heavy I guess, but I'm hardly going to build muscle fighting in plastic

I like it for singles, as this is the only fighting I have done so far at practice. The protection is good, the flexibility is good, the weight is not that bad really (especially when armoring down from 6mm riveted maille to this ). I will tell you more when I fight with it in melee during the southern region spring war practice in a few weeks.

~O

[BjornVarangian]

Hey, I want to be a viking off field, but time/distance travel to be a late 13th to 14th century varangian on the field. Because I already have leather lamellar, and am working on splinted arm/legs and chainmail sleeves and skirt. I don't know how to attach a pic but would the helm in this link be period if I made a chainmail aventail?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21215018@N ... hotostream

[Egfroth]

Unfortunately no. That helmet is in the style of the pre-Viking Scandinavian finds at Vendel and Valsgarde, about 650AD. Even if you covered the bar-grill and the cheek plates and the slats at the back, it'd hardly be the type used by the Byzantines in the 13th and 14th centuries.

To see the kind of thing you'd need, look at some pics from the so-called "Byzantine Alexander" illustrated romance here and here. This shows two types of helmets in use in the 14th century. The first is also very similar to one shown in the late 12th century Byzantine [Skylitzes Chronicle, (see the illustration in the article here). The kettle hat style seems to have started coming into use at about the end of the 11th century, so both would be ok for you.

There's also the kettle hat shown on the depiction of St Merkourios (late 13th century) here

They could have full face aventails (there's a picture in the Alexander romance showing a kettle-hat with one) which would be SCA legal if you have a bar-grill and required neck etc protection underneath.

There weren't any "Vikings" as such by the end of the 13th century (the so-called "Viking period" was over by then), and it's debatable whether the Varangian Guards even existed as a unit. The fall of Constantinople to the troops of the Fourth Crusade of 1204 and the consequent dismemberment of the Empire pretty much spelled their demise in anything but a ceremonial role, even in the Empire-in-exile in Nicea and the reborn remnant after the Crusader "Empire" collapsed in 1251. They're barely mentioned in Byzantine sources from that time on.

But portraying a Byzantine warrior? Sure.

[Ulfarr91]

What did you all use for lacing? Leather thong was my first though, but it's very prone to rotting and I don't really fancy re-lacing the entire thing every few months.

[Ulfarr91]

Also - I put together a test strip today...one think I noticed is as you begin to curve the strip the gaps in between the plates on the horizontal axis become more prominent. Do I offset this by putting them together with a very slight overlap, or is it something the lacing would correct once it is put in place?

[Oddvarr]

Ulfarr, what kind of plate dimensions/hole pattern are you dealing with?

As far as lacing, I used multi-colored paracord with the guts removed. Brown and light tan. This stuff is great, and comes in as many colors as you will reasonably require.

Cheers

~O

[Ulfarr91]

Oddvarr - 10 cm length, 5cm width. I copied Egfroth's hole pattern exactly, so there are the two rivet holes top and bottom, four primary lacing holes in the centre, and two secondary lacing holes at the bottom.

I was thinking paracord too. It *kind of* looks like lucet cord.

[Ulfarr91]

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1182 ... 97j-wpvbUA

Mostly finished. Want to add spaulders, sleeves and skirts at some point, but basic main part is there .

Ignore the ass ugly helm, 'tis a loaner while mine is in the shop.

[Oddvarr]

Looking good! How did it absorb shots for you? How do you find the weight distribution?

Have you considered curving the long plates reaching over the shoulder straps?

It is hard to tell, but it appears that your bottom row is only laced on halfway...is this just camera trickery, or is it attached to the band differently?

Glad to see some action shots of someone else wearing similar armor. I wear maille under mine for melee's and it gives me lots of dense armor defense .

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... =3&theater

I am on the far right of this pic. (I hope this works...posting photo links from facebook changed recently).

Oddvarr

[Ulfarr91]

Thanks . Shot absorbtion is pretty good, I didn't feel anything on the armour really, one shot did catch me a little under the armpit, wasn't anything major but I might consider trying to lessen the gap at the sides under the armpit - not sure if I can pull this off without affecting mobility though. Will curve the shoulder straps! I finished the armour literally the night before this event so I didn't have time to fine tune .

In the end, I actually laced all but the very last band very rigidly, so there's no vertical give or flex in any of the above bands. The very last band was laced according to Egfroth's pattern and gives me all the flexibility at the hips I wanted!

Nice looking kit yourself too . I want some maille to go with the rig for general awesomeness as well as protection, but can't really justify buying some until I have a bit more money

[Wat of Sarum]

As far as helmets go, a spangenhelm as you describe would be fine, or you could go for one of the Byzantine helmets at http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/HbkHelmets.htm (note that this page has links showing how to make several of them). If you want to do a Rus, you could also go for a helmet in the "Great Polish" style, (also very common in Russia).

You could have a mail coif, or an aventail of mail, scale, padding or perhaps inverted lamellar.

Hi Egfroth,

I know this post was from a long time ago, but could you kindly explain what you mean by a coif of inverted lammellar? Would this wrap around the helmet like a mail coif would, but with the lamellar oriented UUUUU'?

Thank you,

Wat

[PatternWeld]

[Wat of Sarum]

Thank you PatternWeld.

In the case of using metal lamellar, would it be better to use the plates backed by leather bands, as is done for the Klivanion, or to do so unbacked as you have with your leather example?

Thanks,

Wat

[PatternWeld]

The leather backed tombstone Klivanion is Byzantine and is the best documented. The "D" shape lamellar plates are a bit of a wobbler... They found very few of them in Birka and are of a more Eastern / Central Asian influence. They would not be unknown but *I* would say they are better for a personae that had contact with Rus or Kumane before becomming a Varangian.

Keep in mind that there was no *standard* for Varangians, many of them kept to the armour of their homeland while others readily adopted Byzantine Armour & dress.

From a SCA combat standpoint its a trade off of weight vs protection vs mobility. YMMV

Happy to help,

Grimr

[Wat of Sarum]

Thank you, this is all a big help. I will likely work on something with the inverted tombstones on a leather backing then. If anyone can refer me to an image showing what appears to be a lamellar aventail or coif that wraps around the face, I would appreciate it. I think Egfroth suggested there were images of such, but with my crappy research skills I haven't found any yet.

Best,

Wat

[Sir Wilhelm]

If I were going to do Varangian I would do a Klivanion. Just straight up looks bad ass.

[PatternWeld]

I was given permission to use these photos last year. For the life of me I cannot remember the name of the Worthy but he was a Count or Duke and had his armour stolen. I remember him as being a very nice and helpfull gentleman.

This shows an excellent construction method for SCA combat of the leather backed Tombstone plate style Klivanion.









Its not complete but should give you enough to go on when you make your own.

Grimr

[Wat of Sarum]

Those photos are of Count Felix, actually the same person who made and sold me my plates (7 or so years ago). He does have a nice kit. Thanks for posting them.

I will keep looking for more images of the lamellar used for the aventaill, especially any historic depictions and post them if I come across them.

Wat

[Sir Wilhelm]

That is some klivanion hawtness!

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Hey guys, Egfroth specifically, any comments on the providence of the helmet depicted in plate F in the Osprey Varangian Guard book, "English Varangian Guardsman"? It appears to be a sort of early kettle helm, and a style not represented much here, but I'm leery of its authenticity.

Tiny picture I know, but it's the gent on the far left.

[Egfroth]

There's a very similar picture earlier in this thread, supposedly from a gaming manual. The helmet bears some similarities to the helmet of St Merkourios in a mural dated about 1295 (if memory serves) - see attached. An 11th century pic in the original Osprey "Byzantine armies 886-1118" book shows what appears to be a kettle hat with a very small brim (see Goliath on page 37)

Wat of Sarum, the 14th century Alexander Romance has a (single, out of hundreds) picture of a soldier with a face-covering aventail here, (see attachment for detail).

Princess Anna Comnena in the Alexiad, her biography of her father Emperor Alexios Comnenos (reigned 1081-1118) mentions a "visor" on his helmet, which he could lower to cover his face. I don't know what the original Greek word used is, so it might be a curtain of mail or some other flexible armour.

The Skylitzes Chronicle (estimated as being produced between 1130 and 1150) shows several scenes with cavalrymen, some of whose helmets have normal aventails, while others have what might be curtains of mail or other armour folded back away from their faces (see attachment)

On another note, have a look at Merkourios's "lapel". It appears to be mail covered by (possibly padded?) fabric. Nobody's ever really worked out what jazerant was, but this might be an example.

[Ernst]

Even if you covered the bar-grill and the cheek plates and the slats at the back, it'd hardly be the type used by the Byzantines in the 13th and 14th centuries.

To see the kind of thing you'd need, look at some pics from the so-called "Byzantine Alexander" illustrated romance .....

For those interested in 14th century Byzantine, here's the Alexander Romance manuscript online:
http://194.177.217.107/gr/showpic.asp?p ... mode=first

[Egfroth]

Sigurd, I included a link to a full pic of St Merkourios in my post of April 26 2012 (above).

And here's the pic of Goliath in an early Byzantine kettle hat, from the early 11th century Menologion of Emperor Basil II. Nice banded lamellar, too.

[Micheall de Faifax]

I may be necro resing this thread as the last post here was from 2012. I do apologise for doing so.

After Spending most of the day reading this thread throughly, I have decided I would Like to also portray a member of the varangian guard. As I have suffered from TBI from many deployments overseas, the use of an early style kettle helm would do me wonders for shot absorbtion on the nugget.

I want to thank everyone that has posted in this thread and provided links as well. You all have inspired me to go in a different direction with my kit along with my fighting and going back to what I originally wanted to do and follow in my bloodlines footsteps by portaying such a figure in history.

[tim_Belcher]

welcome to the family

[Micheall de Faifax]

welcome to the family

Thanks for the Welcome!