I want to be a 13thC Knight Templar

[Hildebrand]

I am looking at being a 13th century German Templar and need to know more about the clothing, armor, Precepts and rules.

What makes them different from any other Maciejowski Knight?

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

I am looking at being a 13th century German Templar and need to know more about the clothing, armor, Precepts and rules.

What makes them different from any other Maciejowski Knight?

The chief differences are these:

• You are, in essence, a monk. You are subject to a monastic rule and a conventual lifestyle with other monastics. Because of this, you own nothing, and are subject to the will of the Pope, the Master of the Temple in Jerusalem, and those preceptors placed in authority over you.
  
• You have no expectation to privacy. As a monk, you have no private correspondence (in fact, any letter to you is to be read out loud in the presence of your superior). You eat in a communal dining hall (are in fact forbidden to eat elsewhere without the permission of the one who may give it) and sleep in a communal hall where a light is constantly kept burning.
  
• You are not allowed to go out without permission, except in a group. This is to keep you from wandering into the ways of temptation, and to keep the name of the Order blameless.
  
• You are not allowed to even look at women, much less speak with them.. This goes without saying.
  
• Any arms or armour you bear is to be simple, utilitarian and without decoration. If you portray a Templar knight or sergeant, your gear is the most basic available, but of the best quality. Your equipment and appearance is no nonsense, and all business. No gilded or brass crosses on helms, no decoration or engraving, no gilded sword furniture or maille, no decorated saddles or gear for your horse--when you are equipped for battle, it's just standard issue gear.
  
• Your hair is short (by medieval standards) and your beard is long and untrimmed. Your hair would be what is considered a normal everyday length in the modern world, but your beard would look like something out of ZZ Top.

Understand another thing about Templars-in-arms--If it isn't about defending the Holy Land, it's not important.

I hope that clarifies things.

[Guillaume2]

Here's some pics of our group, note that we are absolutly not of recreation level, but may give an idea of the look. From now a few of us will head to great historical accuracy tought.

http://www.geocities.com/matronedrow/fredetjo.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/matronedrow/fred2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/matronedrow/templer_b.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/matronedrow/pict0363.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/matronedrow/t13.jpg

[Sceotan]

Templar Bob,

I'm looking into starting a Templar sergeant or squire persona and kit for LH and maybe SCA. Would there be any different expectations in the code of conduct for either of these as compared to a full brother of the order?

[carrot]

A swedish group reenacting templars:
http://www.tempelriddarna.se/

Unfortunately the site is in swedish, but you can always click around to see their kits

[Kolskeggr]

time to start growing a long beard there, Hildebrand

[Charles]

As a templar knight (I believe when you refer to one knight, they are known as templar knight. The organization itself was called the knights templar, don't quote me on that. I've heard a single knight of this order being called a templar knight) *sigh* anyway, you need mail hauberk, mail leggins and a surcoat similar to a Crusader knight.

I think the main difference is that a Templar surcoat has a maltese cross on it. I am trying to build up my templar persona for the SCA. I have a mail coif so far and two surcoats and a tunic. I have a mail shirt but it weighs 57 pounds! I got the heavy one!

I recommend getting yourself a templar cloak/cape (they make you look damn good and knightly!). I have a cloak and when I wear my entire outfit to Ren. faires, people literally stop me and ask for my picture. They also ask if I know where the bathrooms are (they think I work there or something!).

Oh, almost forgot, you need a helmet. I am not too sure what helmet you should go with. Since templars are around the same period as crusaders, I think you should try the salt shaker helm, Great helm, and sugarloaf helm. I personally love the salt shaker (since it's what I wear!). But my fav. (for cosmetic purposes) has always been the great helm.

Well, that's about all I can contribute. Hope you get a good outfit together.

[chiroeurope]

Okay,

First go to the Catholic online encyclopedia and look up Templar's; also known as the order of the Holy Sepuclar or the Knights of the Temple mount. You would start as a Postulate, also known as a tiriare (third level of service) and have been tested and trained to see if you had what it took to be allowed to take holy orders and the required mental and physical hardness.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

This was done NO MATTER what social rany you started at. Only after you entered the order in full and your FAMILY provided the funds for additional training and weapons if you had not had it before you entered the order. As stated you had no expectation of privacy until you where either a senior sergeant, officer proper, or a full ordained cleric of the order.

Your clothing would have been made of wool and linen, with cotton mixed in as you moved closer and for longer periods near the holy lands.

All Members of this order knew the use of the axe in battle with training in spear and towards the end of their hight crossbow. Remember the order did not completely end in Spain until the late 1500's and then only changed from a strictly religious order to a royal/religious order there after..

You would Know all the basic skills required to keep a camp and if advanced to higher ranks how to read and write. Your primary language would be latin with your native tongue being secondary use.

You would have a unwaivering hate for muslims for the most part but under the truces where known to tolerate their merchants and physcians. You hate for them would only be surpased by your distrust and hate of jews. I am speaking from historical view and not my own here.

Cities that you might have traveled through are:

Rome
Mazara Del Vallo
Avagion
Brindisi
Lecce
Messina
Syracusa
Constantinople
Antioch
Jeruslem

There are many others but that is a good start.

You would most likely be stationed at one of the Pilgram points of fortification to help protect those heading to the holy lands. Life would be patroling your areas and ensuring the security of those traveling under the pilgrams mark from the church. You would also be hunting down and killing those that preyed upon pilgrams and legitimate travles along the area of your groups responsibility.

If assigned to the maritime section, you would working on a ship aiding in the movement of those that could afford such travel and also the logistic supplies for your brethern.

You may have been assigned as soliders for one of the crusades and then under officers or a bishop or cardinal who was working with the assigned Grand master or master (abbot) who was over all in charge of you group.

I hope this helps and that you look at the catholic web site and some of its links as they are very useful and in english.

The attached links give a much more detailed information than I have here.

Lord Micheal Mac à Bhaird OAc

[dpickels]

I have looked around but am still not sure. I want to make a surcoat but have a couple of questions. Is the cross Embrodiered on? I am also where it will be hot so would a heavy linen work for the surcoat? Thanks

David

[GodfreyofGyldenholt]

Yes there is a group of templars in Caid, but they are not based of off the historical templars as far as armour or garb goes, they simply bear the white coat and Red cross. There is however a Historical Warband based of off the Hospitalers, which are also based in Caid and are quite accurate.

www.hospitallersofcaid.com

Hope this helps,
Godfrey

[Brother Justin]

I always KNEW the Hospitallers would end up exposing themselves at some point! WOMEN disguised as men! (or are you going to tell us they are NUNS!!!)
[and they disolved the Templars!]

The Pope and the King of France disolved the Templars, the Hospitallers just absorbed some of them.

I have NO problem with hottie Hospitaller chicks! Not. At. All.

-J

[Tom Dunbar]

For the record I meant "THEY" in the general sense, not the Hospitallers!

Turning serious for a moment I think people who want to represent one of the military orders need to think about what is implied by the fact that the Templars and Hospitallers who survived the battle of the Horns of Hattin as prisoners were jostling one another to be the first to be beheaded by the Muslims, so they would be first into Heaven. Remember they were renouncing this world as a means of gaining salvation in the next.
It would kind of a hard act to put on by most 21st Century Americans.

[Robert of Canterbury]

I like the history the Templars, but the historical guys were kinda lackluster, and ordinary. Nothing like what popular fiction has turned them into.

Does that make me a pariah in this thread?

Sadly, Yes.

History does tend to get in the was of fantasy, I know, but its what we have to deal with.

[chiroeurope]

Or in this case by Victorian Romantic idiots,

The Templars where never fully disolved by the Pope and they where cleared of Hersey in 1308.

http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1308.htm

Absolution of the Templars by Clement V

In 1312 The use of the Templar symbols and the name TEMPLAR was banned on pain of excommunication. The Order of the the Temple Mount and the Poor Knights of Jeruslem was never banned. The details must be understood to truly know what you are reading and few protestants could even begin to understand it. I have at times need to consult a priest with his masters in Church Law to completely understand it myself.

Last Fully functioning Branch was in Spain and Disolved into a Church/Royal order when the Church United All orders under the AMOM.
That was done in 1535. So what happened between 1312 and 1535, I can not give you a direct answers.

[ed. Robert of Canterbury]

But, studying them and the other orders is still very enjoyable and if you are catholic the orders have been unsealed which means if you can find a sponsor you could petetion to enter one of them for real.

The masonic calima dealing with the Templars is good pretty much for Scotland and the English members that fled to englnad from the Church in an attempt to maintain control of their lands and wealth which was not dierctly control by the order. The claim they make as being the true line of the Templars on the other hand is pretty much false when it is understood that the order was based on catholic structure and was a millitant monastic order with heavy ties to royal pathways (as noble members could be released from service by their abbot or with a Arch Bishop or above granting release for need to fullfil family duty.

It was a way for third sons to get out of being a full priest and was used as such by some.

Hope this helps,

Michael

[Tigernach]

I always KNEW the Hospitallers would end up exposing themselves at some point! WOMEN disguised as men! (or are you going to tell us they are NUNS!!!)

I have NO problem with hottie Hospitaller chicks! Not. At. All.

-J[/quote]

Historically, the Hospitallers DID have religious sisters, who conjoined a life of charitable service with monastic observances:

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07476a.htm

...The Hospitaller Sisters of St. John of Jerusalem, early in the twelfth century, were established in the hospital of St. Mary Magdalen, Jerusalem, for the care of pilgrims. The year after the fall of Jerusalem (1188) a community was established at Sixena, Spain, by Sancha, wife of Alfonso II of Aragon, for the care of poor ladies of noble families, and the rule was confirmed by Celestine III in 1193. Except from 1470 to 1569, when they were under the immediate jurisdiction of the pope, the sisters were subject to the Grand Master of the Hospitallers. Other communities were soon founded throughout Spain, Italy, Portugal, and England. A reform was instituted in the hospital of Beaulieu in the first years of the seventeenth century; new constitutions were drawn up in 1636, and approved in 1644. After the fall of Rhodes the original habit of red, with a black mantle, embroidered with the cross of St. John of Jerusalem, was exchanged for one of black. On the suppression of the Templars, the few houses of sisters of that order were united with those of St. John of Jerusalem. ....

[BruceWayne]

my question is similar with Hildebrand's.
I want to be a 1260-1270 (french, or any other european) knight.
so what do i need to know? (mainly i want to know what armor i need)?

[RandallMoffett]

Here is from Contamine's @War in the Middle Ages' from a req list off the Templars in the mid 13th;

Mail shirt, Chausses, helmet, espaliers(spaulders), Sollorets, Surcoat, Shield, lance (spear), sword, turkish club (mace) and dagger.

Basically mid to late 13th you start getting plate things, gauntlets, small mini-spaulders, poleyns, at times greaves there are some fairly clear statues and other artwork with arm armour form italy as well. The armoured surcoat comes in and by late 13th is a COP or proto COP. Most knigths would still be primary mail with supplementary plate or leather armour. If I were to do a common knight (not sergeant) of the era I would do mail head to toe, some form of gauntlets(think wisby like), poleyns, a armoured surcoat(St. Maurice) with helmet (barrel/greathelm)for plate things and do hidden the otehr parts if for SCA. You could slide with couters.

Hope that helps,

RPM

[BruceWayne]

gauntlets(think wisby like),

aren’t this gauntlets little late for this period?
Don’t get offended, i am asking cause i really don’t know….

[B. Amos]

I have seen a great deal of different types of crosses flung about on templars, what would be the proper cross for a late 12th early 13th century templar to bear on there breast?

[audax]

I believe it was just a plain red latin cross.

[BdeB]

I have seen a great deal of different types of crosses flung about on templars, what would be the proper cross for a late 12th early 13th century templar to bear on there breast?

What nationality? It's a bit more complex a question than it should be. The Rule states a cross on center of the chest and back. Some artwork shows it over the heart.

My belief is that it was regional by House, and nationality and not as standard as we would think of in terms of later period military uniforms.

[B. Amos]

I have seen a great deal of different types of crosses flung about on templars, what would be the proper cross for a late 12th early 13th century templar to bear on there breast?

What nationality? It's a bit more complex a question than it should be. The Rule states a cross on center of the chest and back. Some artwork shows it over the heart.

My belief is that it was regional by House, and nationality and not as standard as we would think of in terms of later period military uniforms.

Well that does make it a bit more complicated. Very interesting too, do you know of any good sources that talk about the regional/national differences? I would be most interested in the English, French, Spanish, and Crusader states.

[BdeB]

I haven't done serious M.O. research in some time. Might be fun. My lady is far more knowledgable, for instance, about the Hospital than I am. I can't remember the source but the arguement was made that different crosses, heraldry, etc. might have been used regionally in different kingdoms/houses. Of course, the latest and greatest research, (and all the folks that flock to it) bases everything off one fresco, and frankly, I have a hard time using one piece of any evidence to justify something...espcially art, with all it's vagueries of expression....
Opps, sorry, my laurel is showing.

[RandallMoffett]

DragonOrder,

No problem. Most early gauntlets seem to have been made of smaller plates. Usually the earliest ones I have found in Illustrations and effegies with guantlets usually date to around the early 1300's not 1290 but it is likely they went from small plates to big not big plates to small (as all plate splint objects seem to go excluding brigs). If you look at the effigies and remains of early gauntlets most are small plates so wisby is a great example of early gauntlets. Also the other armour at wisby seems often to have been second hand stuff. Assuming that a knight used it or the liek before the armour at wisby (1361) likely was a good 30-40 years old if not older when it was last used by the poor men around wisby (you could assume armour was held onto incase you needed a spare as one is being repaired or for retainers or something as armour was for most knights still an investment-perhaps they had a used armour trade in at the armour stalls?). This would put the armour fairly close to the start or first quarter of the 14th and closer to the period we are looking at. As far as I know there are few instances of artwork of 13th century knights with gauntlets but they would probably all be in small plates over more solid one-piece styles like early hourglass gaunts. I do not know of any artifact remains of gauntlets from the period either. In the end most we know comes from written sources and sadly w/out discription often means we have to look for the closest gauntlets we do know how they looked, similar to the longbow and other such items. There are other bits that have been dated to the early 14th that are remains of gauntlets (the BM has a few) all being small plates the earlier they are.

RPM

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Anyone have a date for the inception of the Knights Templar? Someone I know is curious about doing a First Crusade (or just after) Templar.

[Saritor]

Anyone have a date for the inception of the Knights Templar? Someone I know is curious about doing a First Crusade (or just after) Templar.

1118 is the original founding date, with eight knights total, but the Order itself was recognized in 1128 (along with the Rule). The cross is added later by Pope Eugenius in 1146/47.

[GideonMacKay]

ok quick question... many in this thread post that the Templar cross is Moline including the pics of the groups all wear the Moline cross while I've been under the impression and I know that on the Templar History site i've ready that the Templar cross was the Cross Pattee.

Anyone able to clarify?

Also one person in the pics where there are two Templars holding crossed spears... The guy on the right has on a large ring possible a seal... I've always thought that this type of bling was specfically forbidden.. So i'm wondering if Local Masters or the Grand Master was allowed to wear such an item... It seems highly unlikely...

[RandallMoffett]

Gideon,

I cannot say anything regarding the first question on crosses as I do not know for sure but the second I can perhaps. They would have to have had some exception for a seal because it would be required in written communication really. If I remember right we also know what some of their seals looked like as well as some still exist. I cannot remember where I saw them or read about them though. My guess is that some would have had to have had such items though rules or not because it'd make forging their documents too easy.

RPM

[Calder]

Anyone have a date for the inception of the Knights Templar? Someone I know is curious about doing a First Crusade (or just after) Templar.

Oswyn,
I have done a lot of research into this from various sources as I have tried to create an "early Templar" either one of the original 9 or shortly thereafter the presummed inception and beginning of recruitment for the order, even prior to 1118 when Bernard of Clairvaux became the mouthpiece for recruitment for the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon.
From a few different sources I have found things such as this (I have not gone to the effort though of quoting exact pages, sources or authors so please forgive me, but I am happy to do so should someone wish):
I'll try and keep out myth and conjecture of which there is obviously so so much.....

The Knights templar, before they were officially called such and organized were still, one can assume as their numbers grew, a collection of pious (or supposed to be) knights and men at arms who were devoted to serving under the banner of the Church. Remember there was a tremendous amount of noble property and wealth given to them early on, and even examples of Nobles serving with the Knights Templar (from Spain especially) for limited periods of time after the first crusade, but not necessarily taking a complete vow of lifetime poverty and celibacy. That came a bit later when the order was officially sanctioned by the Church and they began to have a large enough force of both wealth and land and the soldiers to support the mission of the organized Templar Order.

There is myth, that the Knights Templar before they were officially established had an official or unofficial first founding order (presumably Hugh de Paynes and the other 8 "founders" plus supporters and fellow knights and Men at arms) stationed at the Abbey of the Holy Sepluchre of Mount Sion just south of the Zion Gate in Jerusalem. Some sources have hinted even before the Fall of Jerusalem and especially right after. It is recorded that the Abbey " called Notre Dame du Mont de Sion was built onto the ruins of an old Byzantine basilica, dating supposedly from the 4th century and called the Mother of all churches. This abbey apparently was built at the expressed commands of Godfroi de Bouillon. According to a chronicler writing in 1172, it was extremely well fortified, with it's own walls, towers and battlements. And this structure was called the Abbey of Notre Dame du Mont de Sion.

One can wonder if this imply's some affiliation or tie to the Hospitalers, hence the Templar beausant, an all black and white standard. Perhaps...who knows...(Someone please correct me if I am wrong here, but I thought I remembered hearing that the Order of St. John was already in Jerusalem prior to the siege of 1099, but I read one source that said they were not recognized by the Church until 1113 and not "militarized" until the 1130's-Malcom Barber-"The Templars").

It has also been recorded that in Spain, (where the Christians had been fighting off Saracen invasion from North Africa for some time) that many "took up the white mantle of the Crusade," thus in the early years, the white mantle may not have been just for knights, but for those nobles giving land and or wealth to this new struggling Order and who were signed into the service. It can be reasoned that perhaps there were several different styles of Crosses used in various symbolism to represent both Christian Crusaders as well, ona white mantle, this new "Order of the Temple of Solomon."

The period between the fall of Jerusalem in 1099 and the officially recorded date of the Templars in 1119 means that for the better part of 19 + years they may not have been "officially established" but it is not, I think, unreasonable to think that their founding had already started to become established. Hugh de Paynes and Godfrey de St. Omer first were recorded as approaching King Baldwin II in and around 1119, and it wasn't until the Council of Troyes in 1129 that they underwent the change to an official Monastic Order they are now associated with.

Even married men were eligible for entry, but except int he Spanish Order of Santiago, in which married men could become full members) married recruits had to abandon their wives for the term of service and this could not be done without the consent of their wives. (Alan Forey, Recruitment to the Military Orders).
Here's a good source to Bernar'ds writings: In Praise of the New Knighthood (Liber ad milites Templi: De laude novae militae):

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religio ... rnard.html


As for the Cross, I think it depends on the region in which they entered service, regardless of weather it was for a lifetime or a term since from what I cna tell the "red cross" was more (at least at the early stages) a symbol of Christian devotion to the Crusade than a specific order, except when worn on the all white surcoat or tunic of the Order of the Temple or of the Abbey of Mount sion, although there (to my knowledge) is no record of their official uniform, just symbology used.

I portray an early Crusader serving under a Crusading Order prior to the official founding of the Knights Templar from Northern England and thus have adopted the straight latin cross (or the St. George cross ) centered on chest, not positioned on the left breast as in later periods and as stated in the Templar rule of Order written after the Council of Troyes, and I try my darndest not to make it look too Hollywood by having as much research as I can read...which is hard with so much unknown....I guess the catch is trying to rely on best guess and what little historical evidence there is, rather than Hollywood and Ridley Scott to tell us.

[flyingscotsman]

Ok, from what I've read in this thread so far a Templar in 1290-1300 would most likely have a sugarloaf, or great helm, mini spaulders, polyens, frontal greaves, possibly couters, mail hauberk, and possibly a St. Maurice c.o.p. If wearing a c.o.p. would it have been concealed under a surcoat? What type of footwear for this point in time? Would a heater have been appropriate for a shield? I'm thinking of portraying a templar during this time if I get time to start fighting again, and any other info would be greatly appreciated.

Tiomthy

Edited to say this would be for an English Templar seargent

[Donald St. Colin]

I have seen a great deal of different types of crosses flung about on templars, what would be the proper cross for a late 12th early 13th century templar to bear on there breast?

I go with this kind of cross. The pic is a mural of themselves, from a templar church. The jury is still out on whether they used a cross on their backs.

As far as the shield and banner go, its' black over white except if a cross is placed in the white field then its' white over black. Makes sense.

[Brynki]

I had, and still think I might, develop a Templar/Crusader persona for SCA. As I have been an avid researcher of the Poor Fellow Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon (Knights Templar) for many years, I knew for a long time that I would never be able to pull it off so I didn't try. I had my hair cut short but the military forbid be from growing a long beard. When I got out of the military, I was considering it, again, but having a woman who liked to hang out with me at SCA events made that a bit harder to pull off, as well.

One of my biggest pet peeves with people who try to pull off the Templar kit in the SCA is when they are clean-shaven and have long hair. The second largest pet peeve is Templars with a woman hanging onto their arm. My thought is: if you can't pull it off, don't do it! So, if I was to ever develop a Templar persona, I would only use it when my lady could not accompany me to an event.

Templar kits would have really been based upon what was available in the area. A German Templar's kit may have been different than an English Templar's kit. Regardless, they would have had a red, cross, normally one of Maltese of Moline nature, as each "point" on the cross was supposed to represent one of the 8 beatitudes, stitched over their breast. I can't remember if it was left or right, though. The shield would have been painted black over white without the red cross. Their banners would have born the same black over white and was called the "Beau Sainte."

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

I had, and still think I might, develop a Templar/Crusader persona for SCA. As I have been an avid researcher of the Poor Fellow Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon (Knights Templar) for many years, I knew for a long time that I would never be able to pull it off so I didn't try. I had my hair cut short but the military forbid be from growing a long beard. When I got out of the military, I was considering it, again, but having a woman who liked to hang out with me at SCA events made that a bit harder to pull off, as well.

One of my biggest pet peeves with people who try to pull off the Templar kit in the SCA is when they are clean-shaven and have long hair. The second largest pet peeve is Templars with a woman hanging onto their arm. My thought is: if you can't pull it off, don't do it! So, if I was to ever develop a Templar persona, I would only use it when my lady could not accompany me to an event.

Templar kits would have really been based upon what was available in the area. A German Templar's kit may have been different than an English Templar's kit. Regardless, they would have had a red, cross, normally one of Maltese of Moline nature, as each "point" on the cross was supposed to represent one of the 8 beatitudes, stitched over their breast. I can't remember if it was left or right, though. The shield would have been painted black over white without the red cross. Their banners would have born the same black over white and was called the "Beau Sainte."

Well, having a woman is no problem if you are a Hospitaller...You would be a confrer(sp?)...Married men were allowed within the order...

[Donald St. Colin]

So, whats the verdict, cross on the back or not. I can't find any reference that there was a cross on the back. I seems to be assumed.

[Doug Confere]

The Sergeant brothers were to have a cross front and back on their Jupeux d'armers.

You can see the relevant passage here:

http://sbarmoury.no-ip.org/translation.htm