I want to be a 13thC Knight Templar

[NeeSayer]

So would portraying a hospitaller of the same time period (early 13th century) have vast differences, or would alot of the info on here for them as well?

[William Lee]

So would portraying a hospitaller of the same time period (early 13th century) have vast differences, or would alot of the info on here for them as well?

Before 1248, they would be wearing what was essentially a monastic robe over their armour. From 1248 - 1259, they would be wearing a black surcoat with a white cross on the chest, eliminating the cumbersome monastic robes for combat. After 1259, Hospitaller knights would wear a red surcoat with a white cross on the chest, and brother sergeants would continue to wear the black surcoat.

In 1279, all Hospitaller brethren would wear the red surcoat.

[NeeSayer]

What would their soft kit be like? Monks robes? I appreciate any help i can get on this, i just dont know what the differences between templars and hospitallers are.

[William Lee]

What would their soft kit be like? Monks robes? I appreciate any help i can get on this, i just dont know what the differences between templars and hospitallers are.

Hospitallers were distinctly different from Templars, in that they had an emphasis upon caring for sick pilgrims, before they became a military order. The Templars were always a military order. A good example of what Hospitaller soft kit looks like can be found here:

http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=28

Look at both the period illustrations, as well as how the people from the group 1186-583 interpret them.

[Giraut]

If you try to impersonate a Knights Templar it might be a good idea to know where that persona is expected to live.
Not every Templar household was a fighting one. If you want to 'be' a Templar in Outremer, okay, this will be a fighting job.
But in England, Ireland, Germany, France, Templar households used to be - farms. They were busy with growing vegetables, having animals and all these things that make up good farmers. Selling their items made money which was used to keep the fighting boys do their job.

[Ernst]

A master's thesis that might be of some use.

http://www.skjaere.me.uk/dissertation/introduction.html

[IROR]

i am really interested in the Templar's around 1362, after they left Scotland,and their trip to Arcadia.
my question is there enough evidence/documentation to put them in America at that time?
from my estimation there is but i want to hear from the aficionados.

[Haldan]

[quote="IROR"]i am really interested in the Templar's around 1362, after they left Scotland,and their trip to Arcadia.
my question is there enough evidence/documentation to put them in America at that time?
from my estimation there is but i want to hear from the aficionados.[/quote]

Ummmmm.... After 1312 there WERE NO Templars.......

Pope Clement , at the Council of Vienne in 1312, issued a series of papal bulls, including "Vox in excelso", which officially dissolved the Order, and "Ad providam", which turned over most Templar assets to the Hospitallers.

By definition the Templars were a Catholic military order. These orders were endorsed by the Pope and when that endorsement was withdrawn, the orders were de-established. The only current order is the Order of Hospitallers (Knights of St. John).

[IROR]

So there were no Templars at the Battle of Bannockburn in June of 1314.
Hmm...i guess i want to be a Rouge Templar then.

[Haldan]

[quote="IROR"]So there were no Templars at the Battle of Bannockburn in June of 1314.
Hmm...i guess i want to be a Rouge Templar then.[/quote]

You are absolutely correct. There were no Templars at the Battle of Bannockburn. By 1314 the order had been supressed and the members of the order had been taken in by the other Military Orders along with the Order's property.

Dude. A 'Rouge Templar'?

[IROR]

All except Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney, who burnt at the stake on March 18th for rescinding their admission of heresy.
yeah thats what i said...dude.

[Haldan]

[quote="IROR"]All except Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney, who burnt at the stake on March 18th for rescinding their admission of heresy.
yeah thats what i said...dude.[/quote]

De Molay and de Charney, when they were executed, were not executed becuase they were Templars (and had not been Templars since dissolution of the Order at the Council of Vienne in 1312), they were declared guilty of being relapsed heretics, and they were sentenced to burn alive at the stake in Paris on March 18, 1314. Thus, even though they were alive in 1314, they were no longer Templars as the order had ceased to exist.

I would suggest that you read T-bob's post on the first page of this topic. Then do a little reading on Monastism. This should show you how absurd, in a historical sense, the idea of a 'Rouge Templar' is.

[IROR]

well i dont have the energy to continue down this path. thank you for all of your feedback.

[Sergeant Marli]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/161145019 ... 824&sr=8-4

Buy this and read it repeatedly.

One thing to remember with the Templars is that as an Order they were renowned for how religiously devoted they were. Outside of the charges leveled against them they were respected religious men. Their contemporary writers criticized them for various reasons, but not for their religious practices. So with the individual Templars being extremely devote it is hard to believe that a large group would go underground and maintain the Templar Order against direct orders from the Pope.

Although I am open to new evidence currently there is zero proof that the Templars as an Order existed after the Pope disbanded them.

[William Lee]

[quote="IROR"]All except Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney, who burnt at the stake on March 18th for rescinding their admission of heresy.
yeah thats what i said...dude.[/quote]

By the time of the dissolution of the Order, Templars were pretty much forbidden to dress, act or present themselves as Templars, on pain of being burnt at the stake like deMolay and deCharney. Many surviving Templars were farmed out to other (stricter) orders and pensioned off, once they confessed and received absolution. By the Battle of Bannockburn, no Templars existed.

A "Rouge Templar" would have been snatched up by Papal authorities on both sides of the Battle of Bannockburn and been burnt at the stake as a heretic.

I recommend you purchase and read The Trial of the Templars by Malcolm Barber (ISBN: 0-521-45727-0). This should give you all the details behind what happened to the Templars...and why.

[RandallMoffett]

Has anyone found a copy of the absolution notice that the pope sent out that was found a few years back? I saw something on the History Channel but have found nothing much else. I emailed one of the people in the program and heard nothing back on it either.

I'd love to see it if anyone knows anything about it.

RPM

[Knight Sir James]

[quote="RandallMoffett"]Has anyone found a copy of the absolution notice that the pope sent out that was found a few years back? I saw something on the History Channel but have found nothing much else. I emailed one of the people in the program and heard nothing back on it either.

I'd love to see it if anyone knows anything about it.

RPM[/quote]

Do you mean the Chinon Parchment discovered by Frale in 2007? It was called "Processus Contra Templarios", less than 800 copies were printed, and it cost something north of $7,500 per copy. I don't have a copy, but if you find one, please let me know, I'd love to read it.

[RandallMoffett]

Yeah that is it. I was hoping some large University library would end up with on that was open to the public.

RPM

[Galfrid atte grene]

According to Worldcat, it is held by plenty of University libraries, but I think most if not all are closed to the public. However, the Library of Congress has a copy (http://lccn.loc.gov/2008570736) which is certainly accessible. You'll have to visit in person though.

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

[quote="IROR"]well i dont have the energy to continue down this path. thank you for all of your feedback.[/quote]
IROR,

Documentation and evidence?
Good luck, and let me know if you find it.
Conjecture and hypothetical, lots of that.
IF you really want to discuss the possibility of "rogue templars" find a Freemason, preferably one who has done all the York Rite degree work, and is serious about York Rite.

And for the love of Pete, avoid all the Dan Brown drivel...

In an SCA context, your persona would be like any other heretic or heathen, blending in and avoiding attention.

[Bo Harris]

I think all of you guys mean Rogue Templar. Not rouge. Completely different meanings.

[Aaron]

[quote="Giraut"]If you try to impersonate a Knights Templar it might be a good idea to know where that persona is expected to live.
Not every Templar household was a fighting one. If you want to 'be' a Templar in Outremer, okay, this will be a fighting job.
But in England, Ireland, Germany, France, Templar households used to be - farms. They were busy with growing vegetables, having animals and all these things that make up good farmers. Selling their items made money which was used to keep the fighting boys do their job.[/quote]

A whole lot of armour could be hidden under that robe. Just add a greathelm, basket-hilt-sword and HUGE heater shield and you're golden IMO!

I like it!

-Aaron

[Robert.Leftehand.Of.Weymouth]

I thought this was also an interesting book. I can see myself going back and reading this one again.

The Templars: The History and the Myth: From Solomon's Temple to the Freemasons by Michael Haag

http://www.amazon.com/The-Templars-Hist ... 172&sr=8-1

[TrimarianNormanTemplar]

i think the cross is a simple st andrews style red cross. not sure if on backs but definately centered on chest if a knight over heat /left breast if a sgt.