I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter

Archived for searching: A collaborative effort on developing a persona affordably and accurately.

Moderator: Glen K

User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter

Post by Karl Helweg »

Reiteren are an interesting lot who deserve their own "I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter."

The story, as best I can get it from my few sources, seems to have been that in the latter 16th century (after Pavia) there was a greatly reduced demand for militaries. It became much harder, and more expensive, to get knighted. Soon there were 30 year old squires all over the place who could see the writing on the wall and formed a sort of "squires' mafia" that finally went freelance as a huge military unit for hire. Being squires they didn't want to keep their armour as shined as a knight and began wearing a distinct blued/blacked harness (that is amazingly easy to meet SCA standards with) with polished silver highlights. They also picked up a liking for braces of wheellock pistols and were sometimes known as pistoleers or pistoloteers.

These German units were in such demand during the French Religious Wars that noble families in France began sending their sons to Germany to join these units and keep some French taxes in France. I am a little unclear but there may be a Lutheran/Protestant thing here too.

Unfortunately I do not have a way to post the pictures that I have on this site. The armour seems to have run from top end to tin foil, blued to having black leather glued over the thin metal. They just needed to look good. Joe Piela/Lonely Mountain Forge used to offer a nice set of this armour.

http://www.kriegsreisende.de/neuzeit/reiter.htm

Image
Last edited by Karl Helweg on Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
Greywind
New Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:05 am

Post by Greywind »

I don't have a scanner, but there is an excellent picture of a Schwarz Reiter in Osprey Elite Armada 1588, on the last color plate.
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

how heavy

Post by Karl Helweg »

Ehrenfried, the Pistoleers were fairly well covered in plate and chain. The better armour had very similar elbows & knees to what we have come to think of as normal in the SCA. Segmented cuisses, articulated pauldrons, tassets, ridged and reinforced breast plate, gorget, and closed face burgonet. They favored steamlined lances, basket hilted broad swords, and long pistols.

Some was among the best made and proof marked (shot with gun to show bullet resistance) of its time. Some was so thin that it needed black leather glued on to toughen it. It is getting frustrating not being able to post the pictures that I have.

Sir Wulfhere actually found a wall full of burgonets in Schloss Freiburg, Germany that all had proof marks on the left (I think) cheek plates. So bullet proof bodies and heads sounds pretty good by modern military standards. Oh yes, they wore cool riding boots too.
Last edited by Karl Helweg on Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

For those who are serious about putting together a Reiter's outfit, here's a list of most of the present-day makers of Wheellocks (and Matchlocks, BTW), posted at the Muzzleloader Forum:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusio ... id/160735/

Not listed is a fellow in Germany, Armin König. Here is his website, in English:

http://www.engerisser.de/Bewaffnung/wea ... earms.html

None are cheap of course, and never were, but they are absolutely the cat's meow in cool.

Cheers,

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
chef de chambre
Archive Member
Posts: 28806
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
Contact:

Post by chef de chambre »

I should aslo add that

1. it is really, really hard to be a Reiter without at least a brace of pistols, if not three pistols in total.

and

2. it is really, really hard to be one without a horse.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

chef de chambre wrote:I should aslo add that

1. it is really, really hard to be a Reiter without at least a brace of pistols, if not three pistols in total.

and

2. it is really, really hard to be one without a horse.
Chef;

Details! Details! :lol:

The advantage is that after the horse(s), full-sized pickup truck and trailer to haul them, and complete set(s) of tack, the several wheellock pistos and armour will seem a paltry expense by comparison! :wink:

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

Cheaper Alternate

Post by Karl Helweg »

Those are beautiful (and pricey) wheellock pistols. I admit that I hve several matchlocks, fliintlocks, caplocks, and even a miquilet but I'm just too stingy to own a wheellock yet. Check out the Rifle Shoppe:

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/

Thier stuff come very rough sand cast and needs serious elbow grease but it is technically perfect and affordable.

As for the horse, while a reenactor does need one, most SCA fighters should and don't since they're just not cost affective. Rieter armour is noteworthy because it is so similar to SCA requirements. Does any one out there have a way to post pictures here? I could possibly e-mail someone a few good pictures if they could post them here. I think this would be a big help for folks looking into this style of armour.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Karl;

The Rifle Shoppe makes some very nice pieces, but unfortunately they can be a bear to deal with, as I understand it. My own dealing with them (I purchased a built snaphaunce musket lock) was smooth as silk, but others have had major waits for completion of orders (one upwards of five years). That being said, their product is indeed very nice.

Here are a couple of shots of Reiter armour stolen from the "Albums" section at myArmoury.com: The first is a nice black and white harness with a morion, which was at times worn in preference to the burgonet. The second is a VERY fancy half-suit with black and white decoration, along with a white half-suit. The final photo is a quality 3/4 suit that would also be suitable for foot combat (since it has the brayette on it, which is totally UNsuitable for mounted combat! :shock: )

I hope that this is of some help. :)

Cheers!

Gordon
Attachments
normal_16289.jpg
normal_16289.jpg (25.39 KiB) Viewed 9552 times
Bla&White;White Harness.jpg
Bla&White;White Harness.jpg (74.1 KiB) Viewed 9552 times
Black&White.jpg
Black&White.jpg (34.81 KiB) Viewed 9552 times
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
chef de chambre
Archive Member
Posts: 28806
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
Contact:

Re: Cheaper Alternate

Post by chef de chambre »

Karl Helweg wrote:Those are beautiful (and pricey) wheellock pistols. I admit that I hve several matchlocks, fliintlocks, caplocks, and even a miquilet but I'm just too stingy to own a wheellock yet. Check out the Rifle Shoppe:

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/

Thier stuff come very rough sand cast and needs serious elbow grease but it is technically perfect and affordable.

As for the horse, while a reenactor does need one, most SCA fighters should and don't since they're just not cost affective. Rieter armour is noteworthy because it is so similar to SCA requirements. Does any one out there have a way to post pictures here? I could possibly e-mail someone a few good pictures if they could post them here. I think this would be a big help for folks looking into this style of armour.
Hi Karl,

I see what you are saying, but to me it is kind of silly to undertake a for an impression a type of soldier that

1. only fought mounted

2. was primarily armed with pistols

and

3. Never fought in tournaments, and was very, very most often a common soldier - not a nobleman

as an SCA 'persona'. Your milage, of course, may vary.

Besides, is this forum *only* about or for SCA "I want to be" impressions? Or is it open to all?
User avatar
Ehrenfried
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:38 pm
Location: NW Indiana
Contact:

Post by Ehrenfried »

Open to all of couse. If it was closed to only SCA we would miss out on a lot of good information.

Ehrenfried
One of the SCA people working on a non-mounted mounted persona ;-)
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

Non-noble

Post by Karl Helweg »

Chef, The Arms & Uniforms books talk about Rieter being minor nobles. It even mentions French nobles learning German in order to join. Personally, I don't see myself doing this interpretation but it wouldn't upset me to see some folks in nice balck&white armour out on the field. At least they get to wear riding boots and use basket hilted broadswords.

The part about tournaments is curious since there is mention of HUGE 16th century tournaments in south Germany. They talk about 1,000+ entrants but are frustratingly vague. Something about even having short-sword (Katzbalger?) tournaments for hopefull Doppelsoldners. I don't suppose anyone on this forum has better sources here?

I see what you're trying to say though this could to lead SCA folks into portraying all sorts of other cavalry units like late Roman and even KNIGHTS!

Nice armour photos! All I have is art. Does anyone have photos of SCA legal black&white armour?

Image

Here is a German boffer LARPer.
Last edited by Karl Helweg on Fri May 01, 2009 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Karl;

Certainly much of the early Reiter Cavalry was made up of German Petty Nobility, though I suspect strongly that much of the later membership was from a somewhat broader base socially. The German nobility tended to be both more numerous, and therefore less wealthy than the French, and thus when the opportunity arose to outfit themselves as offensively effective Pistoliers, but at far lower cost than would be the case as Gendarmes, it was a rather sudden transformation. At least this is how I understand it. In 1513, when Henry VIII purchased the services of "Burgundian" Heavy Cavalry he was pleased with the fully armoured Lancers he received. However, in 1544 for his "Enterprise of Boulogne" his purchase of Heavy Cavalry resulted in several thousand Pistoliers being mustered, much to his annoyance, as they were all that were to be had. In the same year, Charles V's Heavy Cavalry on the Franco-Netherlands frontier was almost entirely Pistoliers as well, and they were reasonably effective as a counter to the Gendarmerie of Henri II. Enough so at least that Henri II proceeded to enlist several thousand in his forces in gearing up for the next round with the Kaiser.

One of the primary cost factors involved in good Heavy Cavalry was the horse, or rather horses, since a Gendarme (or Man-at-Arms should one prefer) was required to maintain five on campaign: three "Chargers", and two nags for his pages to ride while leading the spare Chargers, and often as not a good riding horse for himself as well. The Chargers were VERY expensive: as D'Aubigny states in discussing the French Wars of Religion, a good horse cost at least 50 Gold Louis (aka "Double Louis", or two ounces of gold. Present cost, at $450 per ounce would work out to $45,000 for one good horse. At least this is my memory/concept of the money end of things, if I'm mistaken, please correct me, Chef). This is actually on the low side for a good top-quality Dressage or Hunter-Jumper, which are upwards of $100,000 for the training and quality you would need for a seriously good war horse. And you would need three of them at least. And feed them, the palfreys, grooms, etc.

On the other hand, a Pistolier needed only a "Sturdie Guelding", rather than a top-notch Stallion, for his work. He would still need several, plus the grooms to care for them, but the tactics involved in using pistols didn't involve the enormous strains and dangers which were placed upon the Chargers, nor did they require the armour upon them as the Chargers did either. Thus right off the bat, the costs were reduced enormously for anyone wishing to either put together either himself as, or a regiment of, Heavy Cavalry.

Getting a ways from the original point, but it really is that the Germans sought ways to reduce the enormous costs of doing business with Cavalry, and the conversion from using Gendarmerie with the heavy Lance to a somewhat lighter, but still "Heavy Cavalry" armed with the Pistol, was one of them. Pistols, though expensive by our lights, are only a very small part of the package, and thus by being tactically effective, but at a fraction of the cost, was a very attractive option for the far less wealthy German Petty Nobility.

More, no doubt, later...

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
Corwin Giollapadhreag
Archive Member
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:05 pm
Location: Winchester, TN, USA (Meridies)
Contact:

Post by Corwin Giollapadhreag »

I've wondered, what is the function of the lames in the leg armor? Is there some advantage over a solid plate over the thigh? Also, is the leg armor hung from the faulds, as it appears, or would it be pointed to an arming garment underneath. Which brings up the question, what sort of soft kit would be worn underneath this armor?

Corwin
Your life is an occasion; rise to it.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Corwin;

No doubt I shall be corrected here if wrong, but my understanding/feeling is that the primary reason for the move from separate cuisses, to extending the tassets down to include the poleyns, is mostly fashion. I can see where it would make for a smoother glancing surface for a lance to ride up and away from the body by this move, but as the heavy lance was going out of fashion at the same time, it's hard to see that as a primary cause. And since the tassets were seldom, if ever, truly proof against bullets, it's again difficult to see a solid reason other than fashion for the change.

You are right in that the tassets are connected directly to the fauld. Some were buckled, some had post & key they slipped over, some were simply connected via arming nails (rivets) to the fauld.

To the best of my knowledge, by the time such armours were becoming popular, actual arming clothing was going out of fashion, and at most a good buff-coat was worn under the armour (certainly the case after 1600: prior to that there were still some arming doublets in use, as the connection between the pauldrons and vambraces wasn't yet popularly used, and points to the rerebraces were still necessary to hold the arm harness in place. They also continued to hold the maille gussets in place as well.) For most soldiers of the later 16th Century, their day-to-day clothing also served as their arming clothes. At least that's how I read it.

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

Sources?

Post by Karl Helweg »

http://api.ning.com/files/bbgUyZ9t*tMhL ... or8208.jpg

or

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... &start=105

The above (hopefully) is a link to a picture of my "Saturday-go-to-war" Landsknecht armour. I have been working on the arms since this though.

Gordon, what sources are you finding all of this in? My information on Rieter is less than complete. Mostly things I picked up while working on Landsknechts. Your reasoning for the lamed legs is excellent! Arming clothes were replaced by fashion. My Lamed armour is very light, comfortable, easy to run in, and can be worn over just about anything including my favorite Landsknecht outfits. Just can't do this with my 14th cent. gear. The only limitation to the lamed fauld/tasset/legs is that a good shieldman can wrap behind them but they work great for spear/polearm/great sword/archery. -Karl
Last edited by Karl Helweg on Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

BTW

Post by Karl Helweg »

BTW has everyone seen Viscount Karl von Sussen's new SCA combat burgonet with the interchangable faces? He usually has one or two on Ebay. They would certainly make a nice start to a Rieter kit. I found that the rest of the armour is much easier to make than it looks.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Karl;

Very nice harness! (Reminds me of the when I used to go down to the old Burro Creek Wars with my landsknechte bretheren... we were in matching black munitions-grade harnesses, packing halberds. And yes, shieldmen could be a challenge... but what fun! Kind of dates me a bit, though!) Who made the harness for you, BTW?

As far as research on Reiters and other late-16th Century Cavalry goes, I've been doing it rather intensively for the past few years so I can't say exactly where I've gotten it all from, it's just sort of jelling in my mind. But much of the basics come from Bert Hall's marvelous book "Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe". He gets DEEP into the causes and effects of the "gunpowder revolution" in European battlefields, some of which were immediate and significant, others of which took time, and/or were rather mild. At any rate, an excellent book which I highly recommend to all and sundry as a good starting point for researching warfare from the 12th Century through to the 18th Century.

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Fearghus Macildubh
Archive Member
Posts: 3364
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA. USA

Post by Fearghus Macildubh »

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/lescot87/ ... /my_photos

Pictures of armour from Schloss Ambras. Not black and white harness, but lots of footman's and reiter armour.
Cheers,
Fearghus
Man-at-arms to Sir Aethelred Cloudbreaker
Shade
Archive Member
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Germany

Post by Shade »

http://www.actiontake1.org/grolle/

Some nice pictures from a battle event taking place around this time. No riders but should match the time frame.
User avatar
Therion
Archive Member
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

Re: War story

Post by Therion »

Karl Helweg wrote:I just have to share a little war story about Reiter/Pistoleer armour in the SCA. It was last Gulf Wars and I had been working on my Landsknecht/Doppelsoldner armour so I showed up extra early for armour inspection (armour passed with no problem but they failed all of my weapons!) As other fighters started to gather there was an unusually tall fellow in very striking black& white Reiter armour standing around. Naturally I wandered over to compliment him but as I got within about 10 feet I saw that he had a beautiful helm and the rest was painted plastic. I just can't see that it would have been much harder to have made it out of metal.

Apparently, since Meridies had just passed (clarified) the NO VISIBLE PLASTIC rule he never got to fight in it. Now I'm in favor of improved armour standards as much as anyone but if there was an example of the "one time exception" this was it.

Does anyone out there know this particular gentle or what the rest of the story was?
If you're referring to Gulf Wars 2004, that would be me. I have a black&white suit I made about 12 years ago in a cramped garage workshop, and a steel black&white suit from Rob Valentine that he made for me about three years later. Here are the two suits side by side:

Image

I almost never wear the ABS suit for fighting any more, mostly because it *is* embarrasingly plastic and the lines on the breastplate are horrible, but I must admit it 's a lot easier to bear in the heat of the Ansteorran summers (March through October).

Here are two pictures of the steel suit in action at Livermore 2000:

Image

Image

and just for fun, the ABS suit as part of a very silly outfit worn for a "Death Race 2000" Road Rally held last year in Austin:

Image

(The Road Rally was held in commemoration of the David Carradine film, crews with decorated cars competeing in a county-wide scavenger hunt with pinatas to run over for kills. Our car was a chopped Chrysler New Yorker that we painted black and converted into a Medieval Death Mobile, and the crew wore various bits and pieces of armor and helmets from my collection. We took the "Best Costume" prize, of course :))

Oh, and in reference to being turned away from the field at Gulf Wars - that didn't happen, I wore the ABS suit in several battles.
Hal Siegel - TherionArms
Historical swords, weapons, and armor
http://www.therionarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/TherionArms
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Nice Black and White suit! I've often drooled over Valentine's website looking at those and some of his other suits. Very nice indeed...

Here's a recent pic of me on my pony, though I'm afraid I'm only up to Harquebusier standards. I also had pulled the pistols from the holsters, since one of my co-riders had earlier had her horse slip and they took a tumble in the damp sod. I didn't want to risk my pistols needlessly, just for riding around! :shock:

And at least my cruirass is "Proof"! :D A more complete harness is in the works, though...

Under the Cuirass is an elk-hide buff jerkin, lined in linen, and cut on an Elizabethan pattern rather than the later 17th Century style.


Cheers!

Gordon
Attachments
Tilbury II, G&W.jpg
Tilbury II, G&W.jpg (38.25 KiB) Viewed 9293 times
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

Post by Karl Helweg »

Although I don't agree that Landsknechte wore black and white armour this is a picture of a beautiful set.

http://www.varmouries.com/lan_01.html

Therion - it was you I saw. Sorry that I never caught up to you later. Going to make GW this year?
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Roland Brokentooth
Archive Member
Posts: 1707
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:46 am
Location: Atlantia, Barony of Hawkwood
Contact:

Post by Roland Brokentooth »

Karl wanted me to post this pic.
[img]http://photos-n-08.facebook.com/n8/7254 ... 2_3967.jpg[/img]

Enjoy!
Squire to Sir Kieran Hunter
Hellhound
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Great illustrations by Fred and Lilliane Funken, thanks for posting that, Karl and Raulin. I always really liked the central figure of the Reiter firing as his horse is shying away. Gets the romantic notions of Cavalry into my head! (I guess this is one of the reasons I play with horses and pistols...)

Per the black-and-white armours not being used by Landsknechten, I would bring attention to the upper left-hand figure, complete with armoured cod-piece, which would be noticeably uncomfortable in the saddle. I would certainly expect this to be a foot armour (as is the one I posted above, at least when it has the cod-piece attached). Of course, Landsknechts covered a fairly broad span of history (most of the 16th Century) so their styles and fashions tended to change dramatically as one progresses through the century.

Again, thanks for posting that one, I do enjoy seeing it!

Allons!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Karl Helweg
Archive Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Juneau, Alaska (Earngyld.org)
Contact:

Schwarz Rieter Rustung

Post by Karl Helweg »

Attachments
Rietersmall2.jpg
Rietersmall2.jpg (14 KiB) Viewed 8800 times
Last edited by Karl Helweg on Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Karl
http://earngyld.org/
I am from Oertha so I am automatically cooler than you.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Still working at upgrading my kit to fit into that picture! This is from last year, still improving things... (though I look more like a Border Reiver than a Schwarzenreiter, I suspect. :) )

Cheers!

Gordon
Attachments
G B&W Jaran.jpg
G B&W Jaran.jpg (95.9 KiB) Viewed 8786 times
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
chef de chambre
Archive Member
Posts: 28806
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
Contact:

Post by chef de chambre »

Thats as it should be Gordon - you can take the Boy from the border, but you cannot take the border out of the boy.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

chef de chambre wrote:Thats as it should be Gordon - you can take the Boy from the border, but you cannot take the border out of the boy.
True enough! :D

Of course, the various incursions of Reiters into France for one side or the other during the Wars of Religion were usually seen as large shopping expeditions (minus the paying for the goods part), so perhaps there wasn't that big a difference between the two. Hmmm... 8)

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Uadahlrich wrote:I read somewhere that they saw a goodly share of action against the Turkish cav. I can't recall for certain what book it was. Oh great! Another stack to read added to my backlog. :?
Interestingly enough, the first actual reference to pistols being carried for combat use is in regards to German cavalry and the Turks. It seems that within the terms of capitulation of the German garrison of Stülweissenburg in Hungary in 1543, the Turks allowed the garrison to march out under arms with all of their baggage. However, the Turks were so fascinated by the wheellock pistols which the German Heavy Cavalrymen were carrying on their saddles that they confiscated them all. The Germans seem to have been rather happy to have escaped with their lives, so they didn't make a fuss...

Per later-in-the-century actual Schwartzreiters, since that was the Heavy Cavalry dejour for the Imperialists it would be noteworthy if they didn't use lots of them in their squabbles with the Turk over Hungary. But the only note I've found is in Oman concerning the Battle of Kerestes in 1596, wherein the Imperial host contained some 3000 Reiters out of a total of about 20,000 Horse total. Most of the Imperial Cavalry were of course various light horsemen of the Eastern variety, being primarily Transylvanian and Hungarian, so by contrast the numbers were fairly small. I'm sure that Russ Mitchell can give better information on this than I can though, so hopefully he'll notice this thread and jump in.

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
Uadahlrich
Archive Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:15 am
Location: Barony of fenix, Middle Kingdom(Northern, KY)
Contact:

Post by Uadahlrich »

IN what I recall through the fog of my memory is that they were used as a counter to raiding Turkish cav and a lot of skirmishes.

I'm Still looking for the source of this recollection. :?
AvM
Archive Member
Posts: 1777
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:28 am
Location: Ansteorra: Arlington, TX
Contact:

Post by AvM »

I have a bunch of questions and correct-me-if-I'm-wrongs. Please don’t hesitate to correct my ideas if they’re wrong.

Rittmeister Frye, I really want to pick your brain, too.

Clothing and Arms

So, if I were to want to be a Reiter around 1575 (originally from Meißen in Saxony, but not necessarily still there), I should probably have three degrees of outfits (to start with): Combat Wear and Arms; Casual Wear, for around camp when not fighting (perhaps while travelling, though a gentle might have separate riding clothes); and Dress Clothes. This is what I imagine these would consist of. Please let me know how wrong I am.

1 - Combat Wear and Arms

Garments: Shirt, underpants (short, as modern briefs), venetians/slops/knickers, doublet (possibly of the armouring variety), riding boots, gloves
Arms and Armour: Suit of 3/4 armour, helm of burgeonet type with no visor or falling buffe, brace of pistols, possibly a cavalry carbine of some sort, shavionna or other basket-hilted sword, dagger (of quillon or bollock variety).

2 - Casual Wear, for around camp, around the home, or other non-formal reasons (perhaps while travelling, though a gentle might have separate riding clothes).

Shirt (perhaps with blackworked cuff/collar), underpants (short, as modern briefs), venetians/slops/knickers or pluderhosen, doublet, nice hat or flatcap, latchet shoes. Sword, dagger (of quillon or bollock variety).

3 - Dress Clothes

Shirt (finer, with embroidered cuffs and collar, underpants (short, as modern briefs), high-quality pluderhosen and doublet, fancy hat, latchet shoes. Sword, dagger (of quillon or bollock variety).

Note that I didn't mention socks - this is because I'm unsure about how they were done. Knitted or sewn stockings would work, but the woodcuts (from Meyer's Kunst des Fechtens) and paintings seem to indicate sewn hose - how would those be worn or attached? I can think of about three or four different ways to do it, but I'm not sure which would be correct.

Questions of Outfitting

What is a 'brace' of pistols?

What manner of pistols (or firearms in general) would have been used? I'm thinking matchlock or wheellock, but I know very little about period firearms.

What manner of tent would/could have been used? Bell tents and pavilions come up a lot, what about wedges and double-belled wedges?

Would or could a shield of any type have been carried or used, and of what type? A steel target/rotello or buckler seems to be the most likely, if at all plausible. I know Reiter were cavalry (hence the name), and predominantly pistoleers, but if forced to fight on foot for whatever reason (horse killed, etc), would or could a shield have been used? If "could" is the answer, how unlikely is that "could"?

Questions of the Period

When on campaign, would he have servants/men at arms of any sort to assist him? I understand that Reiters were likely to be not as well-off as some and so probably not have a whole posse to tail them around, but one or two pages or servants (perhaps a cook) could be of good assistance.

Were there Catholic Reiters? The most predominant campaigns of the area and time, and the main one to which I've seen Reiters attached, are the French Wars of Religion. I understand that many were German protestants serving the French Hugenots. Were there Catholics Germans (Reiters possibly) serving the Catholic forces.

Also, where was the Holy Roman Empire fighting in 1570-1580?

Sorry for the length, but I've been composing this for some time.
Andrew R. Mizener/Herr Andreas von Meiβen
Cadet to Warder Brighid MacCumhal
Qui Quaerit, Invenit
Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Love you mine Kingdom well and goodely, Sirrah or surely thye scrotume wilte knowe the roughe edge of mye foote.
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Andreas:

I'm happy to share my knowledge with you as best I can, so we'll go through your questions point by point.

Clothing and Arms

I don't THINK that there was a huge difference in clothing, especially among more military types, within the ranks of the Reiters depending upon your place of origin. There may have been at first, and perhaps a company raised in Meißen would have had slightly different fashions than a company from, say, Darmstadt, but all in all I don't think that the differences would be that noticeable to say a French peasant being plundered of his goods. Even more so after campaigning for a season or two.

1 - Combat Wear and Arms

I think that you have the basics well in hand for this, other than the possibility/probability that Germans would have generally preferred pluderhosen to other forms of upper hosen, and of course worn with boots and spurs for mounted work. However, all sorts were seen in period illustrations, so it's more a matter of personal taste, and deciding if you want to go with the most common for your impression, or what you like better. I recommend Jost Amman's Illustrations for Artists and Illustrators (1568) which at least used to be available from Dover Books.

At the time, it doesn't seem as though there were often specific arming doublets much in evidence, and often as not (perhaps even more often) armour was worn over one's day to day clothing. Thus you wouldn't require a separate set of clothing for camp or the march, as they would be the same clothes worn for combat. And a beaver hat and replace the boots with shoes if doing much on foot, and you have your complete wardrobe.

Arms and Armour: Suit of 3/4 armour, helm of burgeonet type with no visor or falling buffe, brace of pistols, possibly a cavalry carbine of some sort, shavionna or other basket-hilted sword, dagger (of quillon or bollock variety).
Other than the carbine, I think you're fine with this selection. Cavalry was forming up into several distinct types at this point, and most German-style Cavalry (meaning Pistoliers in particular) was armed only with a pair or more of pistols and swords. However, they often had in the same command a group of Harquebusiers, who would be armoured in breast, back, gorget and a light helmet, and armed with carbine, pistol(s) and sword and mounted on a lighter horse. But they were definitely considered inferior to Pistoliers/Reiters for most purposes (other than for guards, raids, dismounting to fight on foot, etc., i.e. the stuff that later Cavalry specialized in.) I would also expect that many if not most of those equipped with burgonets would have a buff of some sort, as the face was the favorite target for lances, swords and pistols.

3 - Dress Clothes
Shirt (finer, with embroidered cuffs and collar, underpants (short, as modern briefs), high-quality pluderhosen and doublet, fancy hat, latchet shoes. Sword, dagger (of quillon or bollock variety).
Sounds good. Always nice to have dress clothes in case you have to meet someone important, like your employer (i.e. the King of France, Spain, Navarre, etc.)
Note that I didn't mention socks - this is because I'm unsure about how they were done. Knitted or sewn stockings would work, but the woodcuts (from Meyer's Kunst des Fechtens) and paintings seem to indicate sewn hose - how would those be worn or attached? I can think of about three or four different ways to do it, but I'm not sure which would be correct.
Technically they should be sewn hose, though knit hose were coming into fashion (but were expensive). Some hose was attached by points (see some of the woodcuts by de Gheyn in "Exercise of Arms"), but usually just gartered up under the knee.

Questions of Outfitting
What is a 'brace' of pistols?


Just an antiquated term for pair. As in "A brace of quail for lunch" or something like that. Two.
What manner of pistols (or firearms in general) would have been used? I'm thinking matchlock or wheellock, but I know very little about period firearms.
Okay, now it gets both simple and complex. The simple is what they used. Wheellock pistols, pure and simple. Snaphaunces were known to the Scots and English, and were novelties pretty much everywhere else, while matchlocks make fine Infantry weapons but pretty poor Cavalry weapons. Wheellocks were during the 16th and first half of the 17th Centuries considered to be the ne plus ultra of Cavalry arms. In fact, in France, it was illegal to use any other form of ignition system on a pistol until some time in the 17th Century.

The complex part is acquiring them in the here-and-now. Not many makers of such clockwork toys about at the moment. Sadly my own gunsmith Dale Shinn is retiring, much to my dismay, with no one really able to fill his shoes. There are a couple of fellows able to make wheellocks out there, both in the US and Europe, but they are quite expensive. On the other hand, I recently discovered that an English outfit is now importing a wheellock pistol from India. Made on the same lines as the Jacobean-lock (sometimes called "doglock") pistol imported by several US and Canadian firms, it's a tad late for actual Reiters, being much more of a 1620's to 1650's piece, and bloody expensive by comparison to the Jacobean lock pistols (£600 as opposed to $300). But here it is:

http://www.derbyshirearms.co.uk/pages/latest_news.html

On the other hand, there is a Czech outfit that may be worth looking into:

http://www.czechstyle.com/index.php?cPath=17_81

BTW, for English and Scots in the Lowe Counties, one could modify the Jacobean lock pistols for use, but no one else seems to have used Snaphaunces/flint-ignited pistols with much regularity otherwise.
What manner of tent would/could have been used? Bell tents and pavilions come up a lot, what about wedges and double-belled wedges?
I'm sure plenty of odd-ball tents were used, but most of the illustrations have been of bells and round-end marquee tents.
Would or could a shield of any type have been carried or used, and of what type? A steel target/rotello or buckler seems to be the most likely, if at all plausible. I know Reiter were cavalry (hence the name), and predominantly pistoleers, but if forced to fight on foot for whatever reason (horse killed, etc), would or could a shield have been used? If "could" is the answer, how unlikely is that "could"?
Certainly a Reiter wouldn't dream of carrying such an impediment with him on his horse, as managing the horse and pistol in armour is sufficiently absorbing an activity, but perhaps if they expected to be used as assault infantry during a siege the might have some steel targets in their baggage. I've yet to read anything specific about it, as most of the targets were used by Foote officers for such things as siege work, but as many extant garnitures of armour included targets, it stands to reason. Certainly would be a good excuse to have on in your inventory of you choose to do any SCA Heavy Fighting in your Reiter rig.

Questions of the Period
When on campaign, would he have servants/men at arms of any sort to assist him? I understand that Reiters were likely to be not as well-off as some and so probably not have a whole posse to tail them around, but one or two pages or servants (perhaps a cook) could be of good assistance.
Absolutely. In fact even the lowly Harquebusier was allowed a "Boy" to ride his spare horse, and to take care of basic camp chores for him. From personal experience, trying to care for and saddle your horse and put on armour in anything like a timely fashion is near to impossible. Most such Reiters, if they were at all well off or born, would have had at least one and probably many servants. One of the things noted about Reiter regiments was that they always managed to keep their strength (in numbers) close to their contract's demands. Many spectulated that many times Boys on the spare horses were used to replenish the ranks of those Reiters who succumbed to disease or other non-martial maladies. A Reiter regiment's "tail" was often longer than the body, with plenty of servants, labourers, artisants etc.
Were there Catholic Reiters? The most predominant campaigns of the area and time, and the main one to which I've seen Reiters attached, are the French Wars of Religion. I understand that many were German protestants serving the French Hugenots. Were there Catholics Germans (Reiters possibly) serving the Catholic forces.
There indeed were both Catholic and Protestant Reiters, and respectively in the employ of Royalist/Catholic League and Huguenot leaders during the French Wars of Religion. At Ivry in 1590, the duc de Mayenne had Catholic Reiters under Eric of Brunswick unsuccessfully trying to complete a caracole, while in the opposite army, Henri of Navarre had a similar corps under Dietrich of Schomberg, who after discharging their pistols charged headlong into the enemy line and smashed it. Although they did not fight directly opposed to one another, both Catholic and Protestant Reiters were present at that battle.
Also, where was the Holy Roman Empire fighting in 1570-1580?
Pretty much all of their official energies, such as were spent on warfare, were aimed at the Turks, campaigning in Hungary.
Sorry for the length, but I've been composing this for some time.
No worries, happy to be of service. Perhaps Chef or some other student can add to my brief answers. And please feel free to ask more of them. :)

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
AvM
Archive Member
Posts: 1777
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:28 am
Location: Ansteorra: Arlington, TX
Contact:

Post by AvM »

Fan-freaking-tastic.

Thanks so much Gordon, you have no idea how much that helped.

Coupla additional questions:

Shoes
Are latchet shoes appropriate for a 1570-1580 Reiter persona? Finding information on shoes has been sketchy. I take it natural colors are most probable - black/brown?

Dagger
I guessed that a ballock or quillon dagger would be most appropriate for the portrayal. Is that at all accurate?

Stockings/Hose
Just clarifying what you said - the hose would likely have been sewn , but not necessarily pointed, just gartered in place. Fitting kind of like over-the-knee/thigh socks, but not as tight?
Wouldn't this result in baggy hose? In the illustrations I've seen, the hose look tight. I'm not complaining, just trying to get it right.


Also - What is a beaver hat?
Andrew R. Mizener/Herr Andreas von Meiβen
Cadet to Warder Brighid MacCumhal
Qui Quaerit, Invenit
Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Love you mine Kingdom well and goodely, Sirrah or surely thye scrotume wilte knowe the roughe edge of mye foote.
Tibbie Croser
Archive Member
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Storvik, Atlantia

Post by Tibbie Croser »

Andreas, the woven hosen were cut on the bias (at a 45-degree angle to the direction of the weave) to make them stretchy. This works better with wool than with linen.
Flittie Smeddum of Dagorhir
Tibbie Croser of the SCA
User avatar
Rittmeister Frye
Archive Member
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Rittmeister Frye »

Andeas;

You are very welcome, I'm happy to help. To answer (or rather clarify) the next questions, here goes:

Shoes
Are latchet shoes appropriate for a 1570-1580 Reiter persona? Finding information on shoes has been sketchy. I take it natural colors are most probable - black/brown?
For doing much of anything on foot, yes. Or rather a qualified yes. For the most part, boots were for riding in, though at least in England there was a fashion for wearing boots to court, but it certainly wasn't pervasive in Europe until the 17th Century. And yes, blacks and browns were definitely the most popular from what I can tell.

Dagger
I guessed that a ballock or quillon dagger would be most appropriate for the portrayal. Is that at all accurate?
Quillon dagger, rather than a ballock dagger, and likely to be en suite with your sword. The later was pretty much a lower-class tool, and hardly the sort of thing that anyone presenting himself as a Gentleman (such as any soldier) would wear in public. He'd have to be really down on his luck to resort to such an instrument. A servant, on the other hand, would probably carry a ballock dagger if his master were of the miserly sort.

Stockings/Hose
Just clarifying what you said - the hose would likely have been sewn , but not necessarily pointed, just gartered in place. Fitting kind of like over-the-knee/thigh socks, but not as tight?
Wouldn't this result in baggy hose? In the illustrations I've seen, the hose look tight. I'm not complaining, just trying to get it right.


Quite right on all counts. Gartered, rather than pointed in most cases. Not as tight as nicely knitted stockings, but properly cut on the bias, cut and sewn hose can have a fair amount of stretch, but not as much as knitted do. You are certainly correct that they tend to be baggier than knitted hose, and that period illustrations show them as very tight, but then, an artist can paint things as they should be, not as they are, no? The fashion was for tight, therefore the rich had tight hose in their portraits, even if they weren't in reality. :)

Also - What is a beaver hat?


Ah, sorry about that, I tend to bandy about terms that are somewhat obscure. A "Beaver Hat" is a felt hat (such as a modern cowboy hat, the direct descendant of the one's from our period), usually made from the fur of the Beaver, Castor Canadensis. Not the hide with hair on, just the hair. It's felted in such a manner as to make it virtually indestructible, as the finer hats still are today. You can purchase fairly good versions of such "brim hats" in various places today, of varying qualities. Some are of wool felt, then they get better and more expensive with greater additions of beaver or nutria fur. Stetson makes a very nice hat that can be modified to suit, as do some vendors for American Civil War hats such as Dirty Billy's: http://www.dirtybillyshats.com/ My own hat is a "Burnside" from Dirty Billy's. Watch out as far as their delivery goes though, they're not so quick as they could be.

[edited to add: check out Truly Carmichael's site: http://www.trulyhats.com/frames/Firt%20 ... ameset.htm ]

At any rate, a good "Beaver" was almost a requirement for a gentleman in the late-16th through the mid-20th Centuries. One of the things that frosts me the most about modern reenactors is that they don't wear hats, and it's a HUGE mistake in completing an impression. People wore hats, indoors and out (at least until the Victorians made wearing a hat indoors a no-no), and to properly show what people actually looked like, you have to wear a hat. So I'm very glad that you're looking in to this, it gives me a soap box to rail against the world from. 8)

Cheers!

Gordon
"He who wields the sword will be first served"
Charles Napier
Locked