I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:30 am

AvM wrote:Gordon, you rock.
Can I be you when I grow up?

You bet. You're already ahead of the game by having ridden from childhood without a break. I had a LONG (about 20 years) span between my early horse infatuation and my second, permanent one.

So just keep reading (LOTS), riding, and collecting cool stuff and you're there.

And don't be afraid of branching out in your interests. The more experiences and knowledge you have, the more you can apply it to, and increase your understanding of, your primary area of interest. As long as it has to do with horses, that is!

Cheers!

Gordon

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:25 am

Rittmeister Frye wrote:
AvM wrote:Gordon, you rock.
Can I be you when I grow up?
You bet. You're already ahead of the game by having ridden from childhood without a break. I had a LONG (about 20 years) span between my early horse infatuation and my second, permanent one.

I fear you may have me mistaken for someone else.

I've ridden a horse maybe three or four times.
I'm interested in the persona and lifestyle, but a horse is completely out of my means at the moment.
Though, I might be able to take a horse riding class at school.

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:38 am

AvM wrote: I fear you may have me mistaken for someone else.

I've ridden a horse maybe three or four times.
I'm interested in the persona and lifestyle, but a horse is completely out of my means at the moment.
Though, I might be able to take a horse riding class at school.

I am afraid that I have!

Gads. Please accept my apologies for that gaff. At any rate, do take some riding classes if possible, if for no other reason than to give yourself a better perspective on some of the needs for how armour needs to fit, how swords need to hang, etc. You don't get all of it just from sitting on a horse without all the kit of course, but you do get some good perspective on how you need to move, and thus how things need to operate on you. That in turn helps you in your further understanding of the people you are emulating.

BTW, I didn't get back into riding until I was in my late-20's, and then only as time and funds allowed. Didn't buy my own horse for another 10 years or so. Some things take time, so don't completely abandon the idea.

Good luck on everything though, and keep at it!

Cheers!

Gordon

Ancel fitzCharles · Post by **Ancel fitzCharles** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:32 am

[quote="Karl Helweg"]Chef, The Arms & Uniforms books talk about Rieter being minor nobles. It even mentions French nobles learning German in order to join. Personally, I don't see myself doing this interpretation but it wouldn't upset me to see some folks in nice balck&white armour out on the field. At least they get to wear riding boots and use basket hilted broadswords.

Karl;
What "Arms and Uniforms" books are you refering to? I'd like to track them down, if possible.
Ancel

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:10 pm

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... 5%26y%3D11

This is a copy at a good price (I've seen over $100.). The series is out of print and sort of a grandfather to the Osprey books. The Osprey French Religious Wars mentions them but Osprey could certainly stand to publish a Warrior edition on Schwartz Rieter.

I would like to see a better cataloging of their boots, under clothes, range or armours, wheellocks, basket hilts, tack, encampments, etc.... There are probably many original sources buried somewhere since illustrated "soldiers' manuals" where coming into fashion at that time. There are even rumors that Papenheimer published a similar cavalry manual but I have never seen it. At least I have George Patton's.

Now for a pointless modern picture:

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:23 pm

Karl Helweg wrote: I would like to see a better cataloging of their boots, under clothes, range or armours, wheellocks, basket hilts, tack, encampments, etc.... There are probably many original sources buried somewhere since illustrated "soldiers' manuals" where coming into fashion at that time. There are even rumors that Papenheimer published a similar cavalry manual but I have never seen it. At least I have George Patton's.

It's all floating around out there, just pulling it together is the trick. Using the illustrations from Kreigkunst zu Pferde by Walhausen (1616) is a good start, though a generation of so past when they were truly "Schwartzereiteren". Styles did of course change, not only in armour but in boots, clothes, saddles and pistols. But not too much.

Hmmm... maybe I should write a book...

Cheers!

Gordon

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:20 am

http://sestiana.egloos.com/1812477

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiter

http://www.cavregsupply.com/pops/1500.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77086627@N00/2717314889/

http://www.livesteelarmor.com/hm/bwamr.html

Ciaran Gunn · Post by **Ciaran Gunn** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:11 pm

Karl,
I love this picture,I have the poster of it from the exhibition came to San Francisco in the early 90's. A lot of really cool late period armor. A lot of people who aren't SCA types like it as well. Almost more art than armor.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:17 pm

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=95222

Did you see the black&white breastplate for sale here? Sort of reminds me of this elaborate pattern.

Something that fancy would make nice "Sunday got to war" armour but I couldn't bring myself to practice in it. I am hesitating to try and flute my Landsknecht harness.

[img]http://www.neusorge.de/attachments/Imag ... platte.jpg[/img]

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Sun May 10, 2009 1:51 am

Ok - this is a PURELY SCA question.

In my Kingdom, to authorize in heavy you begin with sword-and-shield. Though I acknowledge that in all likelihood a Reiter would not have carried a shield in combat (being, as I gather it, essentially a mounted pistoleer and swordsman), I have the following question:

IF I wanted to use a historically plausible (if not historically accurate) shield (~1570), what am I looking at for options?

Buckler? Round Target? Square Target? Adarga? Something else I don't know about?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:47 am

Andreas;

Round target of steel. Many garnitures were provided with a shield such as this for foot work when it was needed, and during such events as the French Wars of Religion, the Royalists were required occassionally (such as during the seige of Rouen, for example) to press heavy cavalry into use as VERY heavy infantry. They carried such round shields and wore half-armours for such duty. And although to the best of my knowledge the French weren't able to pressure the German Horse into providing such troops, it's not out of the question that some were tempted to do so with promises of hefty bonuses. It worked with the Swiss, after all.

Cheers!

Gordon

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Sun May 10, 2009 1:15 pm

Thanks, Gordon!

That's what I suspected.
Is this the kind of target you're speaking of?

The follow-up questions would then be: how big would it be, how should it be strapped, and where could I get something that approximated it?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:11 pm

Andreas;

Sean Wales uses his steel target for SCA Heavy Fighting, thus:

He is of course portraying a Borderer who has lowered himself to dismount and fight, but it's a nice kit, though lighter than what you're looking into I imagine. I'll have to ask him just where he obtained his target, but I THINK it was a standard Windlass version with some modifications. He probably did them primarily to up-grade for SCA regs (I would certainly also want to pad the thing with burlap and horse-hair before letting someone pound on it with a club, since they're designed to deflect steel swords), but I believe that the strapping is pretty much the same.

Mine is made from a spun disk with a heavy rim welded on, with arm straps riveted in place. They have buckles on them to adjust, but also so I can place a guige-strap on it as well (in the photo you posted, the target is hanging from my neck via the guige). Somewhere I have a photo of an original Scottish targe which shows the strapping nicely. Since those are simply an anachronistic version of the 16th Century wooden version of the Anglo-Scottish target, no reason to not use the information presented by it.

Here's another photo of Sean in full fighting fig. I love the fact that he's chosen to go with the shield of the period he's portraying, rather than go for the "best for SCA use" shield. After all, what's the point of it if you can't do it with style?

Cheers!

Gordon

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:24 pm

Cool!
Thanks again.
Were targes ever painted? Or just left raw metal?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:50 pm

The English certainly painted them, though exactly how they went about it is open to question. I'm sure that there were period methods of ensuring paint stuck to metal without having to bake it on. Anyway, the English standard was white with a red cross upon it.

Edited to add: Plenty of other targets/shields were painted black, of course, just like armour. So it would probably depend upon how you keep the rest of your armour as to how you present your target in this regard.

Cheers!

Gordon

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:27 pm

AvM wrote:Thanks, Gordon!

That's what I suspected.
Is this the kind of target you're speaking of?

The follow-up questions would then be: how big would it be, how should it be strapped, and where could I get something that approximated it?

Gordon, could you show a picture of the handle& strapping configuration?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Mon May 11, 2009 10:54 pm

Sure, but I'll have to go out and take a photo of it in the morning... Hold On!

Cheers!

Gordon

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Tue May 12, 2009 5:46 pm

- I have a quick side question that just occurred to me...
The Schwartzereiteren were by their very nature cavalry...
Why then- are some of the armours fitted with braygets (sp)?

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:04 pm

Darned good question, one which I have wondered at myself. The only possible answer is that the armours were made for both mounted and dismounted service, sort of as a garniture. Otherwise they'd be worse than useless on horseback!

Cheers!

Gordon

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:11 pm

[quote="Rittmeister Frye"]Otherwise they'd be worse than useless on horseback!
I mounted my horse after doing some foot combats without remembering to take my box out - OOH! THAT was a very painful mistake!

I guess as these forms of cavalry became more common, Demi-lancers in England, Schwartzereiteren in German lands, Chevau-lÃ©gers in France etc. that they took over the job of the medieval knight as a kind of all round combatant- at sea, mounted, sieges etc... and they wanted harness to protect for all occasions... Gentlemen adventurers etc...
It's all I can think of really; otherwise not sure...

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:32 pm

Dragon_Argent wrote:
I guess as these forms of cavalry became more common, Demi-lancers in England, Schwartzereiteren in German lands, Chevau-lÃ©gers in France etc. that they took over the job of the medieval knight as a kind of all round combatant- at sea, mounted, sieges etc... and they wanted harness to protect for all occasions... Gentlemen adventurers etc...
It's all I can think of really; otherwise not sure...

Precisely, to the best of my knowledge. Of course one see's these on full armours as well, so they may have been one of those things that was pretty much expected as a part of a decently-made armour, whether or not it had greaves and sabatons. I think that it's to make the armour suitable for several employments, and probably came with a steel target as well, both to be carried in the baggage. Or it's just a bit of parade extra, for show!

Cheers!

Gordon

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Fri May 22, 2009 7:16 pm

Rittmeister Frye wrote:Sure, but I'll have to go out and take a photo of it in the morning... Hold On!

Cheers!

Gordon

Any chance of this picture, Gordon?

I, too, am interested.

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:16 am

Sorry about the unconscionable delay, I got kinda busy. Anyway, here are some photo's of the target, front and back. As you can see, the guige is attached very simply with buckles. "One of these Days" I'll line this one with some burlap and padding and make a guige for my Steve Moffatt target, which is much fancier!

Cheers!

Gordon

JvR · Post by **JvR** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:00 pm

Not sure if this was addressed. I will re look over the posts.

As far as garb goes. Were they similar to late period Landsknechts? Slashed sleeves , feathers and such?

The reason I ask is I am having a Landsknecht harness made. Well its already made, its being fitted and modified to fit me. Its a breastplate, back plate and tassets to my knees. I am having the bp tapered and pointed a little like a peascod.

Would it be possible to cross over to a Reiter? I am tempted to paint the harness up and since Landsknechts never used black and white armor, I figured maybe I could cross over if the garb is close.

I am leaning Reiter because the they at least used basket hilted swords and a small shield. Whereas , portraying a Landsknecht would, be off with a basket hilt and shield.

Note to add. I am not a re enactor or anything. This is for SCA use.

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:11 pm

This is a general 16thC cavalry question so I figured it overlaps here...

What do we know about what their (campaign) equipment was carried in? Was it all on pack animals and wagons or did they carry some personal items in saddle bags and satchels like later cavalry? - What images are there of this?

Thanks,

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:20 am

Per clothing, I believe that the Landsknechts and Reiters both followed pretty standard German fashions of the day from the mid-16th Century onward. Pluderhosen, slashed doublets and especially jerkins, etc. but with tighter sleeves than seen earlier in the century. Since most of it was covered in the illustrations of the Reiters though, it can be hard to be certain. But what you see seems pretty standard. Check out Jost Amman's "Illustrations for Artists and Illustrators" from Dover Books. It was first published in 1568, and has tons of good stuff in it.

Per packing equipment and goods on campaign, most would be carried either in carts, wagons or pack animals. While there are some illustrations of saddle bags from prior to the late 17th Century, they're all civilian, and most are specifically for the servant's horse. A gentleman would NEVER (I firmly believe) be caught dead on a horse with saddle bags on it, and certainly never on a Warhorse. Such things were for a later day and age when governments paid their men regularly and expected much of them and their animals, preferring their soldiers to ride a single mount who also had to carry all of the impedimenta as well. So any sort of saddle bags would be large, and sufficient to be used on a pack animal rather than as a small addition for the back of the riding saddle.

Cheers!

Gordon

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:29 am

Thanks Gordon! Much as I suspected...

What I REALLY need is a "Planchet"...

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:47 am

Or Mosqueton, or Sancho Panza, etc. Sometimes they're hard to get, others hard to keep. Girls, schools and whatnot are SUCH a distraction to good help! However, a good servant is invaluable to have when doing just about anything in the period as a gentleman!

Cheers!

Gordonl

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:48 pm

I do have an attendant - problem is he is terrified of horses!!!

- That said- I still feel it would be an advantage to make period style carrying/storage equipment for events... Even if they get carried there in a car boot rather than a wagon...

- Ah Dumas! I can't think of a single modern author who comes close.......
So many great stories, so many great characters.....

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:20 pm

Dragon_Argent wrote:I do have an attendant - problem is he is terrified of horses!!!

- That said- I still feel it would be an advantage to make period style carrying/storage equipment for events... Even if they get carried there in a car boot rather than a wagon...

- Ah Dumas! I can't think of a single modern author who comes close.......
So many great stories, so many great characters.....

Well, I suppose your attendant can carry everything himself if he's terrified of horses. "No worries, my lad! Here, just carry this 300 pound load yourself! Then you won't have to deal with the horse! That's a good lad!"

Indeed, Dumas! I LOVED all of his stories! They are a wonderful means of learning history, even if it's only to get a taste of it and them move on to discover the sordid realities. But he really was not a bad historian really, and the pace makes up for the discrepancies! Better by far than most modern "Historical Novelists"!

Cheers!

Gordon

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:19 pm

http://wyldewares.com/pistol4.aspx

He seems to be having some sort of sale on right now too. I have not dealt with him yet though.

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:11 am

Karl;

A couple of other vendors, such as Loyalist Arms in Nova Scotia, are also carrying this new wheellock pistol. I haven't seen one in the flesh yet, but from what I can understand it's not too bad.

Basically it's the Jacobean/English-lock/doglock pistol's barrel and furniture with the fish-bellied stock, and of course wheellock fitted to it. Not quite right, but then again, not horrid either. As long as it works. My own experience with India-made arms is that they are pretty serviceable if purchased from a reputable dealer. They certainly spark like hell (at least all of the flint-ignited locks that I've tried!)

These are at best mid-17th Century in style. On the other hand, with some work, one could revamp one of these into something quite close to a French-style wheellock from the late-16th/early-17th Centuries, or the Dutch versions of same. With a LOT of work one could make them into something approximating a French wheellock from the 3rd quarter of the 16th Century, but it would take some work, and many new parts such as barrel, stock, etc. Pretty much only the lock itself, with some mods to it, would be usable for that sort of thing.

On the other hand, IT'S A WHEELLOCK! There hasn't been a production wheellock available in this country since the 1980's when Navy Arms was importing the Mendi's from Spain, and they were only okay. We'll see what happens with these, but heck, I'm happy that ANYONE is producing a decent wheellock, even if it's the very late version. And at the price, while not cheap, means that anyone who REALLY wants to be a Pistolier or Harquebusier can purchase a pair of them, and do it! Woo Hoo!

Cheers!

Gordon

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:57 am

Gordon - that is pretty much my take; it is an affordable, production wheellock. I have one of the blunderbusses and after much work to make it suit me I am very happy with it. More than I expected that I would be. I had to have the frizzen hardened and I am wondering if the wheel will need it on this pistol too but now it sparks very reliably. The stock had a cheap lacquer dip but it stripped off easily enough and there was very nice wood underneath.

He has a sale on right now and I plan to order one. It should be here early September. He just updated his SALE page: http://wyldewares.com/

A wheellock has been on my "wish-list" for a long time. This one might look a lot more 16th century by the time that I am done.

It is not too far off the one in this 1568 portrait:

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:51 am

Karl;

Thanks for the info. Indeed, with a bit of work I believe that these could be used to put together a very good copy of a later-16th Century wheellock pistol or carbine, but it would indeed take some work. My old friend Nick Worthington did something quite similar to one of the Mendi pistols back in the '80's, and it was a very successful job.

Now if I wasn't already saving up for a brace custom wheellocks...

(Edited to note:) Nice portrait, BTW! I like that one, but have not seen it before. Where did you find it?

Cheers!

Gordon

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:03 pm

Dragon_Argent wrote:When wearing the short 16thC doublets and the various pants like truck hose and Venetians, how is the leg armour attached? The doublet waist would seem too short to be the attachment point. Are there specific arming points on the pants?

There are paintings showing boots being held up by straps going under the legs of paned/trunk hose, so it is possible that some sort of arming garment was worn underneath them for that purpose. On the other hand, one would expect that they would have arming hose of the latest fashion for pointing their cuisses to as needed. Since the hose was pointed to the doublet, it would eventually take up the strain of the weight. At least this is my take on it.

Interestingly as paned hose went out of style, to be replaced by Venetian hose, separate cuisses went out of fashion, to be replaced by the long tassets so common in the 30-Years War.

Cheers!

Gordon

Cheers!

Gordon

I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter

Re: Non-noble

good price

Re: good price

more stuff found online

sale

wheellock bargain(?)

deal in