I Wanna Be a Schwarze Reiter

[maxntropy]

Sir Gabriel of Maccuswell (East Kingdom Knight whom I believe won the Pennsic Lefty tournament last year and camps with us in House Arindale at Pennsic) fights in a set of Black and White armour (here are the pictures I could find):

[img]http://warriorsofhistory.com/graphics/c ... field1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://k43.pbase.com/o6/27/282227/1/704 ... _720ni.jpg[/img]

[img]http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak ... 3784_n.jpg[/img]

Max Von Halstern

[JvR]

Say I wanted to paint up my harness in a similar fashion.

Matte black
Semi Gloss
Satin
Gloss

Which one?

Bump. What think ye?

I thought of matte or satin as some pics I have seen look that way. Also some seem to be glossy and some paintings seem to portray them glossy.

I was worried satin or matte would look like black plastic armor yet gloss would look too Star Wars(ish).

What would you do?

Leaning gloss at the moment. I was going to blue the breast, back, and tassets. The gorget,pauldrons and arms are stainless steel so bluing is out.

[Rittmeister Frye]

I would tend to go with matte, but then, my own B&W is more of a gloss, so what can I say. I do think that the matte finish would look more proper, though, as it would more reflect the "black from the forge" look.

Cheers!

Gordon

[JvR]

Thanks fr the info. I did one of the arms in gloss. If I dont like it I will go matte.

[chef de chambre]

I don't know, Gordon. I think semi-gloss would probably be as, if not more appropriate. How many must have had an oil application, either in the tempering process, or as an ongoing preservative?

My black sallet had an oil quench, and to this day, 3 or 4 years on, it and the bevor have a sheen. Same sort of proper hammered surface as unpolished munition armour, with only a file dressing it along the keel.

[Rittmeister Frye]

I don't know, Gordon. I think semi-gloss would probably be as, if not more appropriate. How many must have had an oil application, either in the tempering process, or as an ongoing preservative?

My black sallet had an oil quench, and to this day, 3 or 4 years on, it and the bevor have a sheen. Same sort of proper hammered surface as unpolished munition armour, with only a file dressing it along the keel.

Hmmm... you may be right, hard to tell. As I said, mine is glossy and doesn't look quite right to my eye. Dev's is an oil quench (I believe), and looks rather matte to me, at least out of the glare. It does have a bit of a sheen in the right light, so I suppose that a semi-gloss would do nicely. Of course, using a proper oil quench finish would solve his problem, what?

Cheers!

Gordon

[JvR]

What was the method in period? Painting, oil quenching?

What is oil quenching anyway. Does it turn the entire harness black?

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Any good boot suppliers y'all know?

[Rittmeister Frye]

What was the method in period? Painting, oil quenching?

What is oil quenching anyway. Does it turn the entire harness black?

Sorry about the delay. I suspect that they used both methods in the period. Oil can either be used as an oil-bath quench when heat treating the metal, or it can be baked on, as in when using goose or swan fat and baking it on for the black finish. Actual armourers would have a better idea of the exact process, and I suspect that there is an entire thread in the archives about it if you search.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Rittmeister Frye]

Any good boot suppliers y'all know?

For which? Black and white harnesses? or any of the other myriad things we've discussed on this thread?

Cheers!

Gordon

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Specifically boots. Footwear.... er...toe covers....

Tho I will have a B&W harness.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Duh, helps if I read the post, don't it?

One fellow who is quite happy to make just about anything you'd like, and is quite reasonable in his pricing as well is John Shrader of Santa Rosa, CA. Here's his website: http://www.shraderbootmaker.com/ Not that much of what he shows is totally period, but he'll do it to your specs, if you'd like. Very high quality goods, too.

BTW, on the Landsknecht thread there was a great deal of discussion about shoes, so you might go there for more info.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

D'oh. Guess I did the same thing Frye. Been reading both of them, and must have missed the shoe portion of the landsknecht page.

[Karl Helweg]

My wheellock came in. "Shipping" was quite a bit higher than expected and it was about a month and a half late but it is here and in good order. Although the ad said that it would be about 16" with a 12" barrel it is much larger at 24 1/2" overall and has a 16" barrel. The mechanism is surprisingly smooth especially after polishing and it is sparks well.

http://api.ning.com/files/Lfu6kCNO24o70 ... C10026.JPG

[Karl Helweg]

She's a beaut, Karl. Need some you tubage of you firing it

Christopher

Thanks. First I have to find ammo. I just stopped by the local gun shop, RAYCO, and they miked it for me. (lots of folks wanted to play with it) The rest of the measurements are so different than I expected I wanted to be careful to verify that it is .60 cal. The bore is exactly .60. I'll probably start haunting Ebay to find an old mold the right size now. I need to make a couple powder measures. Probably 75 grain for target and 90 for blanks. Thanks to AA I have a nice flask or two.

I have wanted to take some night firing video of my blunderbuss too so we'll see. Frye/Gordon - did you have video of yours?

[sha-ul]

She's a beaut, Karl. Need some you tubage of you firing it

Christopher

Thanks. First I have to find ammo. I just stopped by the local gun shop, RAYCO, and they miked it for me. (lots of folks wanted to play with it) The rest of the measurements are so different than I expected I wanted to be careful to verify that it is .60 cal. The bore is exactly .60. I'll probably start haunting Ebay to find an old mold the right size now. I need to make a couple powder measures. Probably 75 grain for target and 90 for blanks. Thanks to AA I have a nice flask or two.

I have wanted to take some night firing video of my blunderbuss too so we'll see. Frye/Gordon - did you have video of yours?

What about using .58 balls with a double patch

[Gerhard von Liebau]

The bore is exactly .60.

My father and I shoot black powder rifles and pistols for a hobby, and a gentleman who runs the gun station at a local sporting good store is a long-time national competitor in black powder shooting (and has a stack of first place trophies to show for it.) He advised us that we should be loading single patches with balls approximately .03-.04 smaller than the bore on the guns we use for the safest and most accurate shooting.

As it was, we have a couple of .58 caliber rifles that we used to shoot with .57 rounds, and with single patches we often had trouble loading, and broke a couple of ramrods even with what we considered ample amounts of grease. If you've got .60, then I'd personally suggest looking for .57 rounds for single patching, and if you get a box and don't like 'em, shoot 'em with double patches and get .58 next time around!

Food for thought.

[Rittmeister Frye]

I have wanted to take some night firing video of my blunderbuss too so we'll see. Frye/Gordon - did you have video of yours?

No, I'm afraid that I've never gotten around to doing any video of actually firing any of mine. Good idea though, I suppose that I ought to do so.

Per the right ball, Gregory is correct in that the commonly available .570 balls ought to be just about right for your pistol. My wheellock is just at .580, and the .570's are VERY snug in it. You might wish to use a patch to keep it tight, but I think it will shoot well in any event.

(Edited to add: I think that 75 grains of FFG powder will be too much for you in this pistol. The standard load for a Rifle-Musket was 60 grains, and they kick as it is. I'd start with 40-50 and work my way up or down as necessary, which ought to be sufficient. I often use 60 in my .58", and it kicks HARD! Also punches right through the plate armour I've tried it on.)

Cheers!

Gordon

[Rittmeister Frye]

Oh, BTW, I actually got another wheellock pistol the other week myself. It's one that had belonged to a friend of mine, and I "inherited" it from his widow, so it not only means a good deal to me as being a Dale Shinn piece (one of the very first ones he ever made, in fact) but also as it had belonged to my good friend Carl Ontis as well. Here are a couple of photo's that Nathan Robinson of MyArmoury had taken of it a few years ago (it's the lower pistol), along with my other pistol, musket, dagger and flasks, all made by Dale Shinn:


( http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?cavalry03.jpg )

And my "Cavalry Set" with my A&A Dresden sword and dagger:


( http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?cavalry02.jpg )

It's of a slightly smaller caliber, .50", but that's okay because my new patron box is for that caliber anyway.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dragon_Argent]

They are beautiful Gordon!!!

[Karl Helweg]

Gordon - that is a wonderful kit. When did you get a matchlock? It looks a bit like my 25-year late one: http://api.ning.com/files/5kExwIHIhdbGj ... nds001.JPG (which comes out ginormous if I post it here). Your puffers are closer to the size that I expected rather than this 2'+ hogleg. I am not really complaining, it is nice but I am surprised by the size. You're right, 50gr should be more than enough to start with. I just had a "blank math" moment there. It has a good thick barrel and deep plug but no reason to push it and waist my irreplaceable black powder.

The local gunshop, RAYCO, just got some new brand of fake black powder in for over $45.00 for 10oz.! At that price it would have to load itself and go home and wax the car. He has a lot of that Jim Shocky Frontier but it is the worst stuff I have ever tried and no one else seems to be willing to buy a second bottle either. Sorry, just have to vent to people who understand.

Guys, I am hesitating to buy a box of .58 (I forgot about that odd calibre), if they have any here since I really should be hunting for a mold and I can be patient for a few days (it hasn't stopped raining recently). I never think about recoil from a black powder gun; I just don't feel it. Even loading my .45 LC ammo with black powder makes them very smooth feeling to me but they still chrono near max for SASS. Just different burn rate I guess. There is one in vogue black powder gun I have no intention to try against my shoulder though (#20):

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Guys, I am hesitating to buy a box of .58 (I forgot about that odd calibre)

As mentioned, if your barrel is .60, then .58 or so should be exactly what you're looking for. A proper patch is going to make the difference between the first hundredth or so, and there should be allowed a smidgen of room. The most accurate shots will be fired without the intense pressure that you'd get from stuffing .60s with patches in, but rather with a bit smaller round. I don't think recoil should have anything to do with it, but someone else may have mentioned it...

[Rittmeister Frye]

Karl, I've had that matchlock "bastard" musket for about 20 years or so, maybe a few more than that. I bought it from Dale Shinn who had made it for another fellow in the mid-1970's but decided to pass it on, so I got it. It's a 12-bore (nominally) and shoots .680" rb very nicely. .715's can run a bit tight, especially after a few rounds are downrange. (It's actually funny that I have photo's of Dale and his friends from 1975 or so that my Sister-in-Law took at a Rendezvous north of LA, and both the matchlock and my "new" pistol are in them, along with my wheellock carbine! Rather interesting to say the least!)

I know what you mean about these "reproduction" powders! Horrid stuff for the most part, give me good old-fashioned Black Powder whenever possible! If you run short, go to Ulrich Bretcher's Black Powder page and learn how to make your own high-quality powder yourself!

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/history.html

I believe that your piece is so huge because really it's more of a 17th Century piece than 16th, and they were upping the size and power of them during the early years of that century to compensate for the heavier armour being worn as "pistol proof". Some of the German pistols were made with barrels up to 22" long! That's a carbine in my book! (Well, actually anymore a rifle, since an M16 has a 20" barrel...) But there is no doubt that those pistols were primary weapons for Cavalrymen, and packed a serious punch when fired at fairly close ranges. It would definitely rock your world.

Anyway, still very cool to have. Let us know how good the ignition is on them, as I have been VERY curious to see how well the Indians have managed to properly reproduce this weapon type.

Cheers!

Gordon

[RenJunkie]

Oh my dear God! I am so in love with 19 and 20. Any further info on those types?

Thanks,
Christopher

[Karl Helweg]

RenJunkie -



http://www.therifleshoppe.com/ and maybe even Ft. Vause Outfitters have parts to make your own handmortar.

http://forums.gunboards.com/picture.php ... ureid=3041 This is my little bronze mortar which is basically the same barrel and after seeing it bounce from 400gr of FFg I do not have much desire to try one against my shoulder.

One of these for my Bess with a 3" chamber to fire tennis balls.....

Gregory - I am not arguing that .58 will work just that I want to look for a period(like-ish) mold for the basically the same. I have seen molds on Ebay go for the price of a box of ammo here and that is one more part of the demo schtick that I like doing. I am pretty comfortable casting lead and pewter.

Gordon - I have already looked for potassium nitrate and sulfur here and someone has beat me to it. It will be as hard to get the ingredients as the black powder. No real farming either so those sources are out too. This conversation did give me an idea - I have a couple guests driving up here next spring who could potentially bring several cans. The only fake black powder that I have good luck with in at least small arms was "Cleanshot" which had good smoke and BOOM but apparently is no more. I am using what I have left from buying out a shop to reload my wife's S&W Model 2s for SASS. They seem to like it and it cleans up pretty well if you hurry.

What I meant to ask your before was for closer pictures of your curious spanner(s) if possible.

We now return back to our regularly scheduled "I wanna be..." thread.

[Chris - GSMBristol]

Karl-

I get my sulfur and lead acetate and other misc things from these guys:

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Sulfur ... 2C670.aspx

Decent prices and quick shipping. Potassium Nitrate can be found in most Home Depots or Menards or Lowes in the form of Stump Remover. Just look at the ingredient listing on the stump remover and you will often find the only ingredient to be potassium nitrate.

[RenJunkie]

SQUEEE!!!!!

Thanks, Karl!

Christopher

[Karl Helweg]

Although this one was probably made later, theoretically the lock, stock, and barrel styles were all more or less available before 1600. Just in case you are looking for a project.

Chris - that is a good tip but I checked and our local Home Depot cannot get it shipped. The only brand that our other local stores can get is "Biomide(?)" and it specifically does not have any salt peter. Same problem, we don't have any roads to Juneau.

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Anyone know of a good resource for woodcuts and paintings of individuals sporting pluderhose and doublets? i need reference for my soft kit.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Jost Amman, "Woodcuts for Artists and Illustrators" 1568, reprinted by Dover Books. Also Jost Amman's "Book of Trades" from about the same year, also reprinted by Dover. Excellent illustrations from someone who wore the stuff. Also there are a lot of good mounted illustrations, which can be hard to come by sometimes.

For some GREAT information on them though, check out Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion: 1560-1620". Especially the clothing of Nils and Svante Sture, who were murdered by King Erik XV in 1568, and their clothes were preserved intact in Uppsalla Cathedral until Ms. Arnold did her study on them.

Lots of other stuff on line, too, like this:
[img]http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50 ... _1578b.jpg[/img]

They're gunners, rather than cavalrymen, but what the heck. Still pluderhosen and doublets.

And this:
[img]http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50 ... othing.jpg[/img]
(Okay, so he's really Swiss in the French service, but close...)

There's lots more out there. Good hunting!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Karl Helweg]

What Gordon said. Buy these books:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... &x=71&y=11

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... 0&x=64&y=9

This article has a few more useful pictures: http://www.enterag.ch/anne/renaissancef ... basel.html



I have several sets of pluderhose & doublets.
This was some time ago with Princess Leia (Viscountess Leia di Capraia).

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Thanks guys, those books will go on my list to pick up, no doubt.

Got any other pictures of ones you've made and or wear? Sometimes these woodcuts are a little confusing, so it helps me to see what someone else came up with to get the right image in my head.

[Karl Helweg]

Thanks guys, those books will go on my list to pick up, no doubt.

Got any other pictures of ones you've made and or wear? Sometimes these woodcuts are a little confusing, so it helps me to see what someone else came up with to get the right image in my head.

[Karl Helweg]

She's a beaut, Karl. Need some you tubage of you firing it

Christopher

Being somewhat tech-challenged (and not having much daylight to work with) this is as close to youtube as I can get so far:

http://api.ning.com/files/67WHyo5Tu-SaS ... kready.jpg

http://api.ning.com/files/jxxCYjayMkilz ... ckfire.jpg

Just reload both pictures real fast.

Also worth noting is that MVTC http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/ ... tols.shtml plans to carry wheellocks soon. I have had to put some work into making my wheellock function and I am hearing a lot of horror stories about this recent crop of Indian wheellocks not working, breaking, or taking too much gunsmithing. MVTC at least has a reputation for standing behind their guns a little better.

Also, as one ECW fellow pointed out, this Indian lock design does not allow you to lower the pyrite unto the closed and ready pan cover then just slide the cover open fast when you are ready to fire. My solution is to practice shooting it left handed so that my right hand is free to load, prime, and wind it.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Also, as one ECW fellow pointed out, this Indian lock design does not allow you to lower the pyrite unto the closed and ready pan cover then just slide the cover open fast when you are ready to fire. My solution is to practice shooting it left handed so that my right hand is free to load, prime, and wind it.

Sooo... does it not have the cam on the spindle to operate the pan cover? The pan cover SHOULD open automatically, as soon as the wheel begins to rotate, and not require you to open it prior to shooting. There's a little eccentric cam on the axle/spindle which hits the pan-cover arm to accomplish this. Without the automatically opening pan cover, it might as well be a matchlock.

And are you using real pyrites, rather than torch strikers? I've found that real pyrite produces a much hotter spark, and ignition is much more certain. Of course you have to shop around to find the good stuff that isn't too brittle, and you may have to get a large piece and cut it into rectangles with a jeweler's saw, but the effort is worth it in the resulting reliability of the wheellock.

In case I didn't post it before, a photo of my compadre Eric Worth shooting my puffer a few years ago. 60 grains of 2fg pushing out a .570 round ball.

Cheers!

Gordon