I WTB a 11th C Italo-Norman: Sicily and the Med 1020 - 1100

kenrickb · Post by **kenrickb** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:59 am

I'm particularly interested in the lamellar armor they might have used, but I'm also looking for help with limb armor.

Kenric

Robert of Canterbury · Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:12 pm

For Norman Sicily, visit the online Museum with no Frontiers

See also for reference
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=43866

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:08 pm

Probably the best original source for this kind of equipment is the so-called "Charlemagne Chess-set" at http://history.chess.free.fr/charlemagne.htm - look particularly at the knights and footsoldiers. I have some other pics of the same set, with more detail, and another one in scale armour from Germany (keeping in mind that the Western Emperor was based in Germany, but had territories in Italy) - see below.

But also be aware that most representations of Norman in Italy from this period show them in the standard mail shirts and conical helmets you see on the Bayeux Tapestry. Also it is quite possible that the Charlemagne chess-set figures are actually shown in mail, not lamellar; the details are very equivocal.

chiroeurope · Post by **chiroeurope** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:05 am

If you wish to be Sicilian-Norman the city of import to you would not have been Palermo but Mazara Del Vallo (where the Normans arrived first and made their greatest established presense until Fredrick II of Svevia and Tancredii fully unified The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.

Your Enemies where the Muslims, Bysantians, Longobardi (Not from Lombardi the region). Your allies at that time where other Normans, Sicilians (they did not like rule by the Muslims), and most other native groups to the region.

Cities of great importance where:
Mazara Del Vallo
Messina
Syracusa
Palermo
Neapoli (Napoli)
Benevento (Royal seat of Longobardi and becomes a seat of the Normans by Marriage)
Lecce
Bari (when not occupied by enemies)
Caserta
Brindisi
O'Taranto
Taranto
Matera
Duchy of Cottone

Scale mail was used heavily in the area as dipictied in many murals. I will post my referancetexts later as at the office and don't have the library at hand. The modified Norman kite shield which became known as the Sicilian kite is more shaped like an almond was slightly taller than hip hight and usually had a hardened point for using as a stationary block against arrows when needed. NO, center grip. There is some evidence that scale aventails where used with the standard nasal, again from stone murals and a few frescos.

Trade was plentifull and diverse so there was for a Sicilian a wide range of afbrics and colors available. Also Remember Sicily was extrememly rich due to natural salt mines that where and still are surface accessable. Salt was money (try living in the period life style without it).

The weapons of primary use of the times seem to be:
Axe
Sword (both Norman two edge and scram-sax have been found at digs)
Pike
Glaive (billed hook version often)
Mace (two-handed)
Bow
Dirk

Untensils tended to be wrought iron, silver, wood, vary rarely gold, pottery (soft and hard glazed), Silver or copper lined wooden untensils. Cooking pots and materials tended (from sources I have read and searched) Pottery, Copper, Tin lined Copper, Bronze or brass, very rarely Iron for some reason (there are differring views as why and i will reserve my opinion to myself)

Fabrics:
Linen (Grown in Sicily and all the Med')
Cotton (Same as above)
Wool (not just lamb but also goat and camel)
Silk (trade with "usefull Muslims" was not completely cut of)

In Service,

Micheal

jabberwockey · Post by **jabberwockey** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:11 am

Ok, lets take this a little further. I am currently researching a 13th century Norman/Sicilian personna. I originally set myself up as the standard late 11th/early 12th century post invasion personna but have since decided I would like to head towards the Med without having to become a Crusader. Nothing against them personally, just dont want to be one. I have found referrences placing a Norman king on the throne as late as 1189 and that kings grandson held the throne (although at this time it was considered the Swabian era) until 1250. This is the period that I am shooting for. While officially the Normans were gone, as with any period in time, the dissapearance and emergance of a people during any era might be marked in specific years but the truth of the matter is that it would have taken several generations for them to either all leave or assimilate completely into the local culture. Any info on the mid-thirteenth century Norman in Sicily would be greatly appreciated.

marcus the pale · Post by **marcus the pale** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:49 pm

Just giving a bump. Want to know if there is any other books or paintings I should be looking for in regards to this subject. So far all I have are the Osprey books, "The Normans" and "Norman Knight 950-1204" that seem relevant. Thanks.

marcus

jabberwockey · Post by **jabberwockey** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:03 pm

Actually, someone had posted several reference books but unfortunately that post was lost in the crash. One of the books was "The Norman Conquest of Southern Italy and Sicily" by Gordon Brow.

Just looked at this posting and realized I was back to being a New Member again!! No matter what, you have every reason to be proud JT. The AA is an exceptional resource for armourers, hobbyists, and reenactors of all skill levels. Occasional set backs are bound to happen. Take them as a learning experience and move on.

Aonghus · Post by **Aonghus** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:37 pm

Other books to read:

Before the Normans: Southern Italy in the Ninth & Tenth Centuries by Barbara M Kreutz (Reading this one now)

The Norman Kingdom of Sicily by Donald Matthew

The Age of Robert Guisard: Southern Italy and the Norman Conquest by Graham Loud

Christophe de Frisselle · Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:02 am

Just came across this in my current searching...

The Normans in Sicily
http://www.discoverislamicart.org/exhib ... /index.php

audax · Post by **audax** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:25 pm

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Just came across this in my current searching...

The Normans in Sicily
http://www.discoverislamicart.org/exhib ... /index.php

Very, very cool stuff.

Alailtheflail · Post by **Alailtheflail** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:21 pm

im looking for images of a Norman sir-coat and garb. does anyone have any ideas of where to look?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu May 08, 2014 11:10 pm

What period? The surcoat didn't really come in till the late 12th century - maybe 1170 at the earliest - and many didn't wear them until considerably later. Similarly, clothing styles changed over the centuries. If you can put an approximate date on what you want to portray, it'll be easier to point you in the right direction.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon May 12, 2014 1:17 am

Googling "Robert Guiscard" pulls up all sorts of eleventh-century Kingdom of the Two Sicilies stuff. Including some incidental discussion of his surname/ekename. He had an elder brother nicknamed "Bras-de-Fer" and another brother for whom the given name Drogo seemed sufficient. While I like translating Robert Guiscard, after Cartoon History of the Universe's example, as "Bobby the Weasel," other translations are offered showing some variety of opinion about Bobby: the "Wiseacre," the "Resourceful"... and more. Pay your dinar, take your choice.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07072b.htm
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperial ... scard.html
http://medievalsicily.com/Docs/03_Norma ... 0trans.pdf

I WTB a 11th C Italo-Norman: Sicily and the Med 1020 - 1100

I want to be a 12th century Italo-Norman

Okay, What area???? Of the Sothern region "called"

Thirteenth century

Re: I WTB a 11th C Italo-Norman: Sicily and the Med 1020 - 1

Re: I WTB a 11th C Italo-Norman: Sicily and the Med 1020 - 1

Re: I WTB a 11th C Italo-Norman: Sicily and the Med 1020 - 1