I WTB a Calixtine (Utraquist) Hussite of Prague in 1420

[LeeC]

I want to be a Calixtine (Utraquist) Hussite of Prague in 1420 at the time of the first anti-Hussite crusade.

[RandallMoffett]

Not an expert but this may help. According to the Hodetin Ordinance each wagon has 30 men; two drivers, two, hundgunners, six crossbow men, fourteen flailmen, four halberdiers and two pavisiers. Not sure what the companies really looked like, especially if they never could get enough of one type (Charles the BOld had a hard time getting handgunners in 1477 for his ordinance and used longbow men if I remember right to fluff up his force) and after battels the forces would forcible shift until replaced. One main problem for the average english speaking man is most work from what I can tell is German, therefore I cannot read alot on them. I was able to read a number of books on them though and would like to read more. Another problem, more of bias, is that so many people focus on the use of early guns (which could be anything from a hand hun to a cannon {small, medium, whatever} mounted on a wagon), that the other things the hussites did are less studied, which is sad for they are a rather unique force apart from handgun, (I think the crossbow always remained the main light missile weapon).
I saw a 15th century two handed flail and it could definatly be a powerful weapon, even if it really was just a mace on a pole likewise it could do some good damage. (I thought how many good watermelons would meet their doom when I made one for myself ).Be careful with later period pictures of the Hussites for accuracy. They were one of the earliest forces to use firearms so they are cheifly remembered for that in their own cenury as well but being done 50 years or even a century later by people who were not there perhaps is not very accurate numerically.
The most interesting Hussite practice is the war-wagon, later copied in the 16th by the Turks as gun-wagons. Just like in the old west movies, draw the wagons in a circle and keep shooting. The flailmen would protect the gaps while the halberds pulled men off horse and defended the area as well. The archers and handgun's, (perhaps small cannons on the wagons, two man crew?) would unlease fury on the men as they charged to thin the ranks and try and change their mind. Later they got some artillery for sieges (which they did) and a very efficient light cavalry to flank forces and keep them running. I think they also had a substancial force of mounted crossbowmen as well. A large body of local nobles and knights joined the Hussite forces as well, incluence of armour likely german for nobles in this area forming a group of heavier cavalry but I am not aware of anything particular about them.
Jan Zizka was their leader initially and had a large military background. He really is a force to learn about if you like hussites.
Very interesting group. One of my main problems with the Hussite reenactment groups is that there are only a handful and most are gun happy. 10 handgunners to maybe a halberd or a flail and more understandable no wagon. Its funny concidering the ease of making a two handed mace or flail but that there deal. Good luck and if anyone else has more info please share it.
RPM

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

I am a member of a group that portrays Hussites in re-enactment and living history show.
Although our period is slightly later than yours to be honest.

The Osprey book on Hussites is pretty good, there is also a book of translations of accounts written at the time into English by Professor Fudge.

They had lots of guns, which were basically pipes which the lit thus causing an exposion that sent out a projectile that was accurate until it left the barrel. The chief force was peasents with farming tools, the two handed flail could be swung every two or three seconds so when the Crusader knights charged they got a nasty shock in how effective mere peasants can be.

Shout lots of chants in a foreign language - our group chants in German (our shows are all in England) as we walk into battle. The Hussites were also known for singing battle songs, we have recently got hold of the tune to one of them (after having the song but being unable apply a tune because its more difficult than I thought to do that).

[RandallMoffett]

Eynar,

What is Professors Fudge's first name (initial) and what is the title of his book on this topic?. I have not come upon any books by him in the Uni cataloge or online search. I have found very little good contemporary information and am curious of the hussites.
Second I am wondering what lots of guns means (fairly relative). I agree with your defination of what a gun of that time was. I am more curious of numbers in primary sources you may have and too if they describe the gun(cannon) enough to get an idea of its size etc. I have found that most focus on the gun side of hussites but they have very little to no evidence the missile weapons dominant of the hussite army was ever primarily the hand gun (From what I have found the number of crossbows to handguns estimate ratio in the hussite are never passed 4 to 1 and at points was much more crossbow heavy by ordinance {I believe there are two}). Not saying they were not employed of useful just not numerically largest. Not trying to rain on your parade or say your group is wrong... just wondering if you know of any sources along that line. Like I said before not an expert but try to keep read up on the subject. Thanks for the help,
RPM

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

Randall,

His name is - Thomas A. Fudge

The book is called

The Crusade Against Heretics in Bohemia, 1418-1437: Sources and Documents for the Hussite Crusades (Crusade Texts in Translation S.)

Please see

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... oding=UTF8


WRT the firearm quotient I will have a read through some books tonight and get back to you rather than risk giving misleading answer.

[RandallMoffett]

Eynar,

Thank you very much. I will see if I cannot get it on loan. There really are not many books I have found on Hussites. There are a few that I have looked at but most are more socio-political. Intersting though. Thanks again,

RPM

[RandallMoffett]

That is actually funny, I went and put in half the title and found our library has it. I tried the full one and did not get anything like it. I also tried just the last name and did not get it but with the full last and first name got it??? I did tech support for a while so search engines will never cease to amaze me.... Wierd. I will get the book todayy and have a read. Thanks again,
RPM

[RandallMoffett]

Thanks again for the book. It was an interesting read, though the book did not really have any change numbers, still seem about the same 1-8 or 1-4 to what I figured before. I found and finsihed two other books on hussites as well. THey were very interesting but primarily on political and theological in nature but still helpful to understand the mentality of the people. The use of the wagon forts and even in movement was described very well. I had thought of them being static but some excerts seem to indicate they would open a part let men in then close them trapping a limited amount inside. It is interesting to read most of the people going to fight write they fear the war flail or club. It is strange you really do not see many outside the east from what I can tell. Of course the majority of the soldiers being non-gentle class perhaps had much to do for this as flails, maces and halberds are less expensive to make. It seemed like the cannon and other missile weapons were used almost as you'd see in a siege not a battlefield which is unique as well. I was also supriosed by the large number of cavalry used by the hussites. I figured they were support but they seemed important in a number of the sources Fudge used. Very interesting stuff.

So back to the main story of getting a Hussite persona, (my opinion/thoughts)
Most likely-Flail/Mace(warclub)- light armour, although the hussites in this Fudge book in all the sources almost after a battle pick the field clean. They killed aloy o knights and armoured men so armour could be availible and I guess the melee men would get it before missile men but they seemed to have split the war gear between all in the army.

Next likely- crossbowman- likely lightly armed, a helmet being primary, perhaps a brig of mail shirt.

Halbard men- Basically the smae armament as flails but with a halberd
Drivers- wagon driver- no idea what they wore I assume they had flails of something to fight with.

Shield man- the large pavaise for protecting the archers/misslemen and the gap between the wagons.

Next Gunner- this could be anything from cannon to what was described before. Seems that some wagons had mounted cannon (large guns) and had two men to one in a team. If they are anythinglike other gunner they have some armour just icase the cannon goes.

Also cavalry (which is numbered in the thousands at times) would be light for the most part although many of the nobles had joined so heavier plate german influenced. In one source it listes 450 barons joining with men, (exaggeration? Very possible). THe other men lighter armoured armed with spear, melee weapon and mounted crossbowmen possiblely.

Good luck with your hussite soldier. I think you can go from either spectrum really. Wealthy noble to poor as dirt dirt dweller. There are accounts of Jan's men not accustomed to their armour at fisrt after the looted it so you can get away with the scavanged armour thing (put some holes in it for good measure if you like).

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

A couple of things to remember:

1) Prague was AWASH in arms production at the time. If it was used in the period in the Empire, you can get your hands on it.

2) You must, must, MUST first decide whether you are more Calixtine or more Taborite, and whether you have anything to do at all with Zizka and Prokop... you may be Utraquist and never see the inside of a wagonburg...

[RandallMoffett]

Russ,

Didn't they start having production problems in the early 1430's and that was one of the reasons they were willing to begin negotiations with Sigi? I remember reading something recently that said as soon as they knew war was lilely Jan Zizka ordered weapons (crossbows and war clubs, etc.) and wagons fabricated. Did they have a large armour industryas well? I never read much about the fabrication of any armour specifically from there but assume they had centers like other countries did. It seems like the descriptions I read of the hussites average man was unarmoured for the most part. It seems like the Hussites for a time had Polish forces there as well wouldn't that throw in some more variables as well?
I agree about having to decide on the definate group initially as well, could throw in the Taborites and the Orphans as well.

RPM

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

Ah I had forgotten about this!

Randall,

Gald you liked the book! I skimmed through it and the only specific reference to numbers seems to be in the wagon's ideal crew and mentions out of 20 members 2 would be handgunners. It also mentions that 6 of the crew should be crossbowmen so it does seem to be a 3:1 ration in favour of crossbows.

As for people's reaction to the flail I seem to recall a soldier pleading with Sigis and saying "we greatly fear their war clubs" so Sigis put them on the flank in a bog against the Hussites and they got creamed (probably because they were so scared).

I have no idea about the state of Bohemia's armouries except for the fact that they found a way to make gun powder out of manure and being as, at least initially, the majority of the nobles supported them do you think that it is reasonable that they would have been well financed and able to buy a considerable amount of armour if so desired?

As a oint of interest in the Osprey book it mentions that they found a gun at Mount Tabor, which they believed was used by Hussites, in 1898 which was 42cm long and had a calibre of 17mm.

I read that the wagon tactics at times could reach out like two arms and cut the enemy in half and thus have one half trapped inside getting shot to pieces. It also mention how the wagons drove in preset formations and patterns to divide and conquer enemies - although the source reported mentions that the report seems to have some embelishment

In terms of persona I agree with all that has been said - start with the large things like which faction, where are you from etc etc and it will make building a complete matching persona much easier as a lot of small details will take care of themselves. Also if you cannot speak old Czech just make words up - I have never been caught out so far as far as I am aware, although once a child excitedly told his father that I was the man that talked backwards.

The only exception I make is that I often sing whilst fighting (especially in a battle of champions) and I sing in Welsh but pretend it's Czech.

[RandallMoffett]

Eynar,

I figure from the Fudge book that you are right about the nobles. They themselves for sure had arms and armour like any other noble would have in the empire. I totally loved in the sources in the book how many times the idea of the crusaders greatly fearing these war clubs. Such a crude weapon but so deadly. I got to see a few that were a little later than hussites in the RA and I could see it as being a weapon of some devestating attacks. I would love to see more in reenactment groups. Heck I may make one just to make one.

I enjoyed the battle organization of the warwagons as well. In the battel where the Hussites are finally defeated it is interesting the Germans do exactly the same thing, set up war wagons then pretend to flee. Once the hussites follow them- over. Very interesting tactics. Adds a whole knew side to that warfare. I was wondering if one could not use some mock up none working wagons and still make it work for hussite reenactments? Probably too much work.

One thing that I found interesting is that the hussites took so many cities by escalade? I always wondered why try it if it never worked as I have found so few instances of it working but there are a great number in the sources that claim hussites using latters and taking the city.
I have really enjoyed this topics I get to learn more about a group that gets very little attention. Hope this helps with the original post?
RPM

[LeeC]

Indeed it does!
At the moment I'm merely taking all the good input in thank you all!

[craig1459]

I totally loved in the sources in the book how many times the idea of the crusaders greatly fearing these war clubs. Such a crude weapon but so deadly. I got to see a few that were a little later than hussites in the RA and I could see it as being a weapon of some devestating attacks. I would love to see more in reenactment groups. Heck I may make one just to make one.

I enjoyed the battle organization of the warwagons as well. In the battel where the Hussites are finally defeated it is interesting the Germans do exactly the same thing, set up war wagons then pretend to flee. Once the hussites follow them- over. Very interesting tactics. Adds a whole knew side to that warfare. I was wondering if one could not use some mock up none working wagons and still make it work for hussite reenactments? Probably too much work.

I'm another wannabe Hussite

I know in Britain articulated weapons are not allowed on the re-enactment battlefield, due to reduced control and hence safety. However, we can use them in our independent displays so I hope to make/obtain one.

Now, a flat-pack war wagon...

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

To the tune of 99 red balloons:


You and I in a little chapel
buy indulgences with the money we've got.
Set the Pyre at the break of dawn
til flame by flame Hus was gone.

In Bohemia, the peasants stand
Rebellion's flames, truley fanned.
Rolling to the silver mine
99 Hussite wagons roll by.

99 red rioters, lead by a one eyed old man
Panic bells, it's red alert
King Wencelas has breathed his last.
The war machine springs to life
Opens up his eager eye
Focusing it on the Church
99 Hussite wagons roll by.

99 Decision Street, 99 noblemen meet
To worry, worry, super-scurry
Send crusaders in a hurry
This is what we've waited for
This is now God's holy war
Sigismund began to cry
As he saw all of his crusaders die.

99 Knights of the church
charge super-high-tech war wagons
Hussites fight like super heros
Now lead by a beardless man.
Each of them giving surmons,
Each of them drink communion wine.
Stopped only by the sprawling sea.
99 Hussite wagons roll by.

99 dreams I have had
Each one of them a rebellion
It's all over and I'm standin' pretty
In the graveyard that is Lipany.
If I could find a souvenier
Just to prove Hussites were here...
And here is a gold chalice
I drink communion wine and let it go.

[Russ Mitchell]

Russ,

Didn't they start having production problems in the early 1430's and that was one of the reasons they were willing to begin negotiations with Sigi?

Aww, crap, this thread is stale. I hadn't even realized it'd gone on. Sorry, Randall. My understanding is that this was not an issue, given the strength of Taborite armies all the way through the death of Prokop the Holy at Lipany, and the strength of Hussite raiders in upper Hungary (modern-day Slovakia) after the war. As I see it, and I'm not the expert I'd like to be, the pivotal figure was Sigismund getting Jan of Prachatice on the negotiating table -- he gets short shrift, but as Hus' companion at Konstanz, he had a moral authority that mattered... once Prokop's more extreme taborites were out of the way.

Also, Prague was possibly the biggest arms producer in the Empire prior to the war. I don't remember whose dissertation I read the account in, but the amount of arms being manufactured was ridiculous... enough to armor every member of the Brethren in the field.

Fudge has a new book with more sources out, and I'm going to pour me a beer and get into it.

[RandallMoffett]

Russ,

Interesting. Are there any more sources in English? I found Fundge very interesting. I really think there is a long way to go with hussite research. I really think something should be done on the war wagons used in eastern europe. Most of the battles really indicate this as a key to their field victory but most secondary sources kind of gloss over it almost making it a secondary part of their tactics.


RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

That's because the Ango-US historiography-at-large could care less about anything that doesn't involve Englishmen. They were a major, serious factor, and the wagonburg was used extensively in Matthias Corvinus, adopted by the Ottomans in response, and used up through at least the middle of the sixteenth century and likely seventeenth (Kozaky and Hajduk used them in fights against the Poles and Austrians, for instance).

There's not a ton. I was into this during my graduate work, but I couldn't swing going to Prague and staying there for a year or two in order to get passable Czech (pretty much the known way to do it)... something about repaying school loans combined with my crack-like addiction to food and shelter interfered. And almost all the pretty Czech girls live in Texas anyway, so where was my motivation?

If you want to read something really embarrassingly bad (actually, it's not awful, just VERY undergraduate), my senior thesis on the topic should be available from the University of Dallas. After that, I mostly got into the political side, where I strongly disagree with a portion of the historiography's assessment of the role of the noble estate. Not really relevant here.

I've met Fudge, btw, in a conference in Lublin. He is an *awfully* nice man, and amazed that anybody else really gets into it. If you track him down, he's likely to be quite helpful to you.

EDIT -- Oh, and he's not kidding about the linguistic difficulty, either. Most of the latin sources survive in 19th-century source editions translated into Czech. For instance, the paper that's part of my master's work at CEU in Budapest used a shorthand pseudo-translation of the 22 Articles. The czech was so incredibly florid and german-akademia'd to death that four CZECH GRADUATE STUDENTS needed a week to figure out what it was saying.

[RandallMoffett]

Russ,

I did find somethings on Mattias but very little. From Fudge's book it seems the sources state the wagons even played a semi-mobile role opening passages then closing people in and also moving forward to engulf men. I am interested in the light cavalry they used as well. Seems pretty interesting but as it is not as interesting as other hussite attributes it likely will take a back seat.
I will look into those sources... after my dissertation is in and my PhD sorted.... soon, hopefully,

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

It so aggravated Delbruck that he actually assigned a graduate student to disprove the notion...

[RandallMoffett]

he disproved your assessment of the role of the noble estate or that the wagons were mobile or something else. I should stop posting until my brain recovers from all the reading and typing I did to day....

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

Assigned a grad student to disprove the possibility that the wagons were used offensively. Nah, trust me, I'm a very small fish in a very big sea. Nobody's going to bother trying to disprove anything I write -- at least maybe until next year, but that's Crecy, not Taborites.

[RandallMoffett]

Russ,

I would like to read this article. I cannot think of any other way to explain the translation in Fudge beside being moved forward to force the enemy either back away from them or inside the circle, fairly offensive to me it seems. OF course I had no idea much was done on hussites besides the artillery that seems to be the only thing people know about them or as in certain popular military historians obsess over. I was so suprised that most of the things I found mentioned escalades when they supposedly had enough cannons to blow hell apart. Some people do not even know they have any religious connections I have spoken too....
What is your main thesis of your soon to be debated paper? I have some fun debates coming up perhaps as well. Time will tell.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

Sorry, that one's in the publication queue -- I'm keeping that one under my hat until I'm *officially* a flame magnet. Basically I come out and say that the entire historiography's interpretatio of the battle is cacked.

Now, it's intensely undergraduate, as I said, but it's a free work on http://www.scholarsvoices.com, which was a venture I tried to get going a while ago, rather than some b.s. online thing where the author only gets 2c per 1000 views. Never went anywhere, but it's up there in .pdf for easy download.

[RandallMoffett]

make sure you let us know when its out. Thanks for the link.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

If you can tackle Czech at all, or can find somebody who can, I recommend "Husitske Vojenstvi," by Durdik. It's a little bit Soviet -- the Hussites were obviously p.c. given the ease by which one can paste Marxist intellectual theory onto them, but the details as I've pieced some of them together are excellent.

[YoungHussite]

I am aiming to portray a Bohemian minor noble at the start of the Hussite war, definately Hussite side, but not sure exact faction as of yet (Taborite has appealed to me, but from the little reading I have done, the nobles seem to have been more supportive of the more moderate Calixites)

I have done some research into effigies of the surrounding areas that are contemporary (I was unable to find any in the czech republic, but found 2 in Germany and one in Poland). I just needa bit of help in interpreting what the armour is in each one.
(I am only linking urls at this point, if it is moved to a thread, I will replace with actual pictures)

The first effigy is the one I am mainly going to be baseing my armour off, and is the Effigy of Kunz von Haberkorn (1420) from Germany (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/). It seems to show him wearing Globose (sp?) breastplate, with a scale faulds over a mail skirt (not sure if those are correct terms). He appears to have a small helmet (bascinet cap?) and a larger helm (sugarloaf?), with a mail aventail. I am unable to decide what the arms and legs are, or what they would look like separate.

The second effigy is Johann I von Wertheim (1407), admittedly of a much higher-ranking noble that I am aiming to portray, also from Germany. http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/. The armour displayed is similar to before, but the legs shown here have separate knee-cops (right term?), but also shows the Scale and mail combination on the skirt/faulds. I am unsure with the helmets here as both seem to be fairly heraldric, so may not be true representations of the armour of the time. But they also seem to show the bascinet/sugarloaf (?) combination if taken to be actual armours.

The third is a carving from Poland dating to 1422 http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/page311.html This seems to show a figure in a visored bascinet (?) with an aventail, Globose breastplate, arms similar to the first effigy, legs similar to the second and a mail skirt (?).

In essance, my intended harness will most likely contain for certain the arms from the first harness, and potentially the legs (but I am uncertain how to form the knees as a single piece without restricting the movement too much). I like the mail/scale combination, but I am not a fan of breastplates, would a coat of plates similar to that on the statue of St George in Prague (http://www.svjiri.wz.cz/) be feasable for this period? The bascinet / sugarloaf combo has appealed to me, even more so since reading the thread about Chris Gilman's one (I know mine will be nowhere near his as I have never tried making helmets before). The aventail is the only piece I have no intention of making as I dislike working with mail.

Does this seem an accurate harness for what I am trying to portray? (I will attempt a hand drawn picture of it for tomorrow)

[RandallMoffett]

I think those effigies are fine for what you are looking at. All look to be forms of bascinets to me. The knee cop is called a poleyn, elbow cop a couter.

You certainly could use a more developed type of pairs of plates for the earlier part of the period as they are still appearing in artwork and inventories of the knightly class, though I think by now most had switched over for some decades to a cuirass of solid plate. Something to keep in mind is that the Hussites were close to several large areas of arms and armour production as well.

RPM

[Tancred de Lanvellec]

The more Hussites the better!

[Hogfather]

hfunit.jpg (41.73 KiB) Viewed 1483 times

Hi, is this a picture of the shield men of that era?

[Miles_H_J]

hfunit.jpg

Hi, is this a picture of the shield men of that era?

It's Hungarian and because it translated as Jagello-era Hungarian military attire, which I think is later.

[Russ Mitchell]

Hungarian and MUCH later.

[Ernst]

To locate image folio numbers, scroll down to Decoration Note:
http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/mai ... e=&client=
For images:
http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/mai ... 98&client=

Czech National Library NK XVI.A.17,Chronicle of the Council of Constance, c. 1464.

Richenthal‘s Chronicle depicts the participants and the proceedings of the Council of Constance (1414-1418) one of the most important events of the Late Middle Ages, when the most notable church representatives and secular rulers attempted to solve the problem of the schism in the western church. The author was an eyewitness to the Council, Ulrich von Richenthal, a burgher of Constance. His work is valued for its realistically conceived images, to which he added brief textual commentaries. The images depict participants of the Council, namely a number of secular rulers, church dignitaries and members of the most varied monastic orders.The author also recorded the proceedings of various ceremonies and trials, funerals and other events, as well as scenes from the market-place and other everyday situations. The depiction of the accident that befell the Pisa Pope John XXIII, whose carriage overturned during his flight from Constance, is well known. The most significant images for Czech history are probably the depiction of the burning at the stake of Jan Hus and Jeronym of Prague, towards whom the author adopts a negative attitude. The attached listing of the coats of arms of the participants of the Council is also a significant heraldic source.

Most of the heraldry comes after fo.200v--

[MJBlazek]

Is the man in the top pic a priest? That is quite the hat!

[Ernst]

Is the man in the top pic a priest? That is quite the hat!

Jan Hus, on his way to be burned.