I WTB Rus c. 1200

[John S.]

Hey all,

For awhile now, I've been slowly working towards the long term goal of putting together a c. 1200 Rus kit. I've done quite a bit of research to plan stuff out so far, but my research has also brought up a few questions. (Editors--if you want me to split this into multiple topics or want to move it to the "I want to be..." board, speak up.)

Here's the plan so far:
hard kit
-Nikolskoye helm w/ the extra SCA bits covered by the camail
-Banded lamellar in the Byzantine fashion (kind of like the Nestor icon at http://www.levantia.com.au and the stuff on Egfroth's site)
-Bazubands (maybe)
-hidden SCA armour where applicable
-(eventually/maybe) add mail hauberk under the lamellar

soft kit
-tunic (iconography shows anything from just above knee to top of ankle)
-belt (cardwoven or leather w/ appropriate fittings)
-low turnshoes
-round hat w/ trim (bad description, but the generic kind alot of E. European cultures wore)
-legwraps/winnigas
-either braes and chausses or baggy-Rus style pants
-kaftan and/or cloak

Here's the questions:
hard kit
-There are some distinctive features of this style of lamellar that I'd like to capure. For instance, look at the Nestor icon http://www.levantia.com.au/military/h_infantry.html What's going on with the waist? Is there some sort of "gut plate" attached to the bottom of the klibanion under the skirt? I've also seen icons where this portion is the same color as the fabric garment, so is this just some sort of artistic convention?
-Padded garments were known to both the Byzantines and W. Europeans by this time, but the Rus iconography shows a very slender look even to those in armour. Should I be wearing a padded gambeson/aketon over/under my armor, both (a la King's Mirror and the Strategikon), or neither?
-What evidence do we have for the adoption of Byzantine/W. European style leg armour by the Rus--maille chausses, padded chausses, schynbald style greaves, simple kneecops?
-Do we have any evidence for the wearing of civilian garments (kaftan, etc.) over armour (like the W. European surcoat)?

soft kit
-Where should I be placing trim on the tunic for a specifically Rus look? I'm guessing simple geometric patterns?
-What style of kaftan should I be wearing c. 1200? Crossover, button down the center? Where should the hemline fall?
-Should I be wearing Byzantine/W. European style braes and chausses (like the Rus icons) or baggy trousers like the Rus-Vikings (earlier...) and the steppe nomads (different, but connected culture...)?
-What style of turnshoe should I be wearing?
-What style of cloak pin, belt fittings, etc. should I be wearing?
-Any other details I haven't addressed?

misc.
-How do the answers to these questions depend on:
(1)Which Rus principality I'm in (Kiev, Chernikov, Novgorod ....)?
(2)Social Class?
-How would these anwers change 50 years earlier/later?

I realize that there's alot of questions to cover here, so anything you guys can help me w/ would be greatly appreciated--even if the answer's we don't have enough info, you're going to have to have to make an educated guess.

-John

[Egfroth]

You're right - it is a lot to cover, and I've been sitting letting it percolate in my brain till I feel I can sit down and cover all the points you've raised (or at least the ones I can answer).

I'll get back to you on this soon.

[Hiro Protagonist]

The "byzantine gut" is a subject which has caused me a great deal of confusion. The only written sources I can find on it (so far)suggest that it is a gap in the armor, the skin covered by the undergarment, worn by cavalry to help them better lean forward in the saddle. But I've seen many period illustrations which look more like a garment worn under the cuirass, extending below it and over a skirt of scale, lamellar, or fabric.

PS I've never done any business with them so I can't vouch for the service or quality of work, but http://www.armourandcastings.com has a nice-looking Nikolskoye helm, not to mention a mmmmmmmouth-watering stylized 15th c russian harness... does anyone have 2 grand they're willing to lend me?

[John S.]

Egfroth--definitely take your time. Anything you can help w/ would be appreciated.

Hiro--yep, that's why I'm so confused about it, too, some of the icons show the gap "metal coloured" and some show it "fabric coloured." Adding to that, I thought the icons were supposed to represent the saints as the "common (infantry) soldier," so that "gap" wouldn't make sense. Also, which written sources are you referencing? (I have access to a university library and can always use the excuse to do more reading.)

Everyone--I received a very useful e-mail anwering a lot of these questions. It's a little long to post here, but if you're interested and the fellow who sent it gives me his OK, I'd be happy to forward it.

-John

[Hiro Protagonist]

The article which I was specifically referring to is entitled "Late Byzantine Arms and Armour," was written by Andrea Babuin of the University of Ionnina in Greece, and was published, at least in my case, in "A Companion to Medieval Arms and Armour," edited and compiled by David Nicolle in 2002. Referring to a figure in a late 13th century crucifixion scene from a church in Kastoria, Greece, the author writes, "The rest of the kit is, however, what we might regard as standard Byzantine issue. For example, the short-sleeved mail corselet is only hip length and has a gap at the belly which would have facilitated bending forward while in the saddle." A brief mention at best, but I have yet to find an essay, article, or book focusing on, or even dwelling on this occurrence.

Representing the military saints as infantry, (or PBI, egfroth ) while being a widespread trend, is in no way the rule. Many icons show them in cavalry regalia and, at times, even mounted. (see St. Demetrios, church of Saint Demetrios, Makrychori Eubea, Greece 1303 CE and [obligitorily] St George, church of St. John Chrysostomos, Geraki, Greece c.1300 CE... both of which are pictured in the aforementioned book) Now here is what strikes me as odd: of all the images cited by the author, everybody bearing the byzantine belly is on foot, while not one of the four pictured armoured riders is shown dressed in that style. In fact, two of their cuirasses are shown curving sharply downward in the front. (the first is the Demetrios mentioned earlier, and the second is another St. George, this one in Crete 1420/1 CE)

Just another example of the irritation to be had from studying Byzantine images. I suggest that from now on America destroys all it's portraits of presidents and has them re-painted wearing the average artist's understanding of a Continental Soldier's uniform.

PS: I'd love to read that EMail, or anything else regarding Byzantine armour you might have happened upon. Ill PM you my EMail address

[John S.]

Well, I got the OK and rather than forward it to everybody I decided it'd be easier to just copy it over from my e-mail. Not certain I agree w/ all his interpretations, but it's interesting to hear how different folks make some of these decisions.

He also promised me a list of other books he recommends, which I'll give you guys a crack at when I receive it.

**Warning--this gets very long. With all the Q and A it was 4 pages when I printed it out**
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From: Melvin E Kemp <Melvin_E_Kemp@raytheon.com>
To: jhs02d@fsu.edu
Subject: Rus Kit
Headers: Show All Headers


John,

Congratulations on picking a great time and place that not too many
others do! My wife and I have been studying 1100’s Rus for about 6 years
now and have amassed a reasonable amount of information on the subject. The
first thing I am going to suggest is that you do your best to find and
procure two books. The first is “Sacred Arts and City Life: The Glory of
Medieval Novgorodâ€Â

[John S.]

And here's a few websites he found useful:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/mik ... iption.htm
This is by Peter Beatson, a serious re-enactor and historian from
Australia. It’s a little early for you or I but the research he does is
great.

http://arc.novgorod.ru/
A site on the archeology of Novgorod.

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/index.html
The Hermitage. Basically the Smithsonian for Russia. If you fiddle
around with their on line collection, they have some great stuff.

http://members.aol.com/feodosij/rus/ruslinks.html
A pretty good primer in the time.

http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html
A century late but a great primer on Novgorod.

[John S.]

Hey all,

Well, just got back from Gulf Wars and my girlfriend's already pressuring me to upgrade our camp for next year. This brings up another question--what camp furnishings are appropriate for a c. 1200 Rus? Style of tents, boxes, chairs, etc.?

I've been turning Mel's responses over in my head for awhile. Here's some more of my speculation:
(1)Maybe the braes & chausses v. baggy pants isn't a secular v. clergy dichotomy but a question of social class? Since the upper class was aping Byzantine atire for formal situations perhaps they would've been in braes&chausses while the traditional baggy pants would've been regarded as "backward" and appropriate only for the lower classes. (I kind of like my baggy pants, so I'm not terribly eager to get rid of them. Just want to know what's more likely.)
(2)I've collected alot of artists' depictions of c. 1200 Rus off the web in the last couple years. Many of them show the Rus in mail chausses, greaves, padded quisses, etc. Do you think these are just flights of fancy or is there some evidence motivating these depictions?
(3)The closest (chronological and geographical) evidence I've been able to come up with for the wear of kaftans over armour is from the 14th cent. Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle. Anyone have anything closer? If there's support for it, I think a heraldicly-colour-themed kaftan would be a spiff way to display SCA unit heraldry while maintaining a period appearance.

I've put in ILL requests for the books and articles recommended so far. Any other good titles you folks suggest? Still waiting on Mel's list of sources so I can share that, too.

-John

[apolloniavoss]

As it happens, I've been researching 10th cen. Rus for garments.

These two hat links will give you patterns that I think will be workable for you.

http://www.medievalwardrobe.com/item/3

http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_asianhats.htm

[Bake Nasty]

Hi!
About to get started on a Русский kit, and am wondering what style of lamellar I should use

Namely:
Shape of lames
methods of bondage
attachment of shoulders, skirts, if available

And of course would appreciate any pics you have!

[Barnet]

Nikolskoye helm w/ the extra SCA bits covered by the camail

Ok what type of helm is this, my searchfu has failed me. -barnet

[Barnet]

What type of helms are period for this kit? looking for ballpark 950 A.D. 'ish. Searchfu is not helping much last couple of days.

-barnet

[Bake Nasty]

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... elmets.htm

http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medi ... /parti.htm

http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russ ... ordef.html

Have faith in your searchfu- with translated words the spelling is usually different!!

Here are what my searches have yielded. The Nikolskoie helm is in the first one, about halfway down the page.

Hope it helps

[Barnet]

Thanks, I was thinking that was it, just wasn't sure.

[ddtaylor]

I have been looking into boing a Rus soft kit. I want to be a earlier than 1200 and kievan. I keep seeing something called a svita. From what I have read it is a coat that is split down to waist level. My question is would it have buttons or some kind of closure above waist level or just be open?

[Kotek]

I have been looking into boing a Rus soft kit. I want to be a earlier than 1200 and kievan. I keep seeing something called a svita. From what I have read it is a coat that is split down to waist level. My question is would it have buttons or some kind of closure above waist level or just be open?

Hey there,

This is much the time period I do. I also have a Svita, constructed with the information on this website: http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KMC2.html

Here be some photos of mine: http://flickr.com/photos/kotek/1766801651/
http://flickr.com/photos/kotek/1169520147/
http://sg.sca.org.nz/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=3903

To answer your questions...

Mine has small wooden beads, covered in fabric, which attach to loops, as a closure. The black stripes are purely for aesthetics, though I suppose they add some reinforcement to the front panel.

I'm happy to answer more questions, ofcourse

[Fedor Poriadnich]

Here's another detail shot of a "Nikolskoye helm" that belonged to Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich.

http://textplay.net/pages/0001.htm

[Oleg Ivanovich]

I was just getting ready to post "I want to be a 13th C. Kievian Rus." But then I found this. I have alot to read, but I think most of my questions will be answered here. Now to find Hard Kit armor (coat of plate Lamelar or chain) for a giant like me. :)

[Sevastian]

The helmet of Prince Yaroslaw is gorgeous. Maybe someday. Most of my kit at this point is a mishmash to get authorized but, perhaps someday...

[Kyle B]

I'm also considering this persona, specifically a Novgorodian from Staraya Ladoga. What type of shield should I use for my hard kit? Is center grip still good or should it be strapped by this point? I should probably mention that I don't plan on being particularly wealthy. More of a merchant's guard or even juast a plain mercenary of common means.

[Greenshield]

Something like this?

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/210164 ... 2893EXmkUx

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/211281 ... 2893ZtbERs

[Fedor Poriadnich]

Absolutely Your Grace.

Also for more helm ideas check out Aesir Metal work's helm section!

[Fedor Poriadnich]

Alexander and the battle of the Neva is finally available to those of us who don't want to pay shipping, and as added bonuses it's both free and comes with mildly amusing subtitles

http://youtu.be/GNBeIjyn1D4

[Fedor Poriadnich]

Saw this on a friend's FB

http://swordmaster.org/2009/01/20/muzej ... ml#comment

[Michael Spaulding]

Ooph, time to revitalize a thread!

I am about to start working on a 13th century Rus kit. And this is very helpful. My big question however, I really dislike the Byzintine fashion Banded Lamellar. What other styles of Lamellar would be acceptable for a 1250 Rus?

Additionally, I have a perfect Hauberk for this kit, but in the interest of plausibility I have to ask, for this time and place, is wedge riveted an option?

Cheers!

[John S.]

Wow. Didn't expect this to come back to the top after all this time.

A fact that all of us interested in the early Rus have to grapple with is that we're missing a lot of the resources that folks interested in other time periods take for granted so we end up using evidence from neighboring cultures to fill in the gaps. Rus principalities were decimated by the Mongols. There is also less evidence to use for any portrayals post-Christian conversion (when burial practices changed) and pre-15th century (after which more art and artifacts survived.) This extrapolation is especially problematic for academics who can suffer career effects from charges like "Orientalism."

My use of Byzantine banded lamellar armor is based on evidence from Rus icons. I think this is a valid choice, but acknowledge that it is potentially problematic for a few reasons:
(1) Did the Rus use the armor illustrated in their icons or did they just copy the images from Byzantine artistic traditions?
(2) No one has ever found an intact klibanion so any reconstructions are based on art with limited (or no) physical evidence. I've been using Dr. Dawson's interpretation of banded lamellar described on his website http://www.levantia.com.au.) Some medievalists agree with his interpretation. Others disagree with mounting the rows on leather strips and feel that the apparent rivets really represent embossed domes in the plates.

Rus fashions were undoubtedly influenced by the Mongols and other steppe nomads, but it is difficult to establish the rate this happened at. That isn't to say that the Rus fully copied stepped nomad fashions. Sometimes this took really weird forms. For instance, I read an article suggesting that the crown worn by the Russian czars was originally a bridal hat associated with an intermarriage between a Muscovite prince and Mongol princess.

Some Rus armies contained steppe nomad troops. In Lake Peipus 1242: Battle of the Ice, Nicolle speculated that the mounted archers were a detachment of Mongols assigned to support Alexander Nevsky (who had at least nominally sworn allegiance to them.) Again, it's difficult to make definitive statements about every specific context.

You could this to support the choice of steppe nomad style lamellar. Here's an example of this look https://armstreet.com/catalogue/full/me ... suit-3.jpg. I can't recommend specific plate styles, but I believe that most of these consist of plates laced into rows and then the rows are laced so they can slide past one another. I've heard this referred to as "hanging lamellar." There are surviving suits still used by Tibetan monks in mounted games.

Another school of thought is that some of the earlier Rus looked a lot like their Northern neighbors. In one of Nicolle's Osprey books, there's a picture of a stone carving that shows a 12th or 13th century Rus soldier in a chain hauberk, chausses and candy-cane striped kite shield. (I can't track down a specific citation at the moment.)

You could use this to support wearing your hauberk without lamellar. For SCA context (maybe even LH, too--I can't speak to that), any form of maille is better than none.

[Michael Spaulding]

Thank you for the information!

This actually explains a lot. I had been looking into the Varangian Guard as well, and most people suggest just assuming that they used Armor provided by the Byzantine armory, but if there is little or no information on what armor they might have brought with them, it makes sense to model it after Byzantine. (I know, cardinal sin, mentioned the Varangian guard)

Thanks for the nudge toward hanging lamellar. It's the style I was looking at, actually, so I'm glad for the confirmation.

Out of curiosity, were the other styles of lamellar exclusive to cultures too far away to be plausible?

[Dan Howard]

Even in Byzantium, those with the means wore mail, not lamellar. Frankish mail was considered most desirable. The Varangians were paid more than enough to afford mail rather than an inferior armour.

[Michael Spaulding]

I've seen hundreds of examples (none historical) of people wearing Lamellar over Maille. Is there any reason I shouldn't do this? This is the first time I've seen anyone imply that the two should be used exclusive of each other.

[Egfroth]

Two historical examples (from the same source) - two 10th century cavalrymen on a wall in the 'Dovecote' church in Cavusin in Kappadokia (previously Byzantine, now in Turkey). Each wearing - not lamellar but scale breast protection, with (if you look closely) some mail rings peeking out at the neck. You can see them here in the first two pictures of my post of Feb 15 2014.

Dan, I know Princess Anna Comnena claimed that Frankish mail was far superior to Byzantine armour, but she was hardly likely to have been an eyewitness. Perhaps one of her informants was impressed by the quality of Frankish mail, but as far as mail being preferred by the Byzantines, I know of no evidence to back that up. Do you have anything to support this statement?

[John S.]

Another example of lamellar over maille (at least to my eye) is the image labelled "14th century Saint Michael from Taxiarchis Metropoleos, Kastoria" near the bottom of this page viewtopic.php?f=16&t=52942 I vaguely recall another one from the Balkans c. 13th-14th cent. of two warrior saints standing next to one another. (I'll update this if I find it.) The first visual cue which says lamellar worn over maille to me is recognizing maille instead of tunic in the "Byzantine gut." The question to me is not "Did people wear lamellar over maille?" it's "What proportion of an army in a specific time period and location wore lamellar over maille?"

From his forum posts, Dan seems to strongly prefer maille as a better armour than lamellar. He cites an Asian source about the drawbacks of dirty lamellar near the end of this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=164996 and the idea that maille has the advantage of being self-cleaning near the end of this page viewtopic.php?f=1&t=175401

Dan, I am also interested in any evidence you have to support your statement.

[John S.]

From previous discussions, Dan also falls firmly in the camp of embossed domes in plates instead of riveting to leather strips. I see both interpretations as valid without sufficient evidence to definitively say one way or the other. There isn't a point in rehashing the discussions. Michael should play with the search function as he makes decisions about his kit.

Michael, if you choose lamellar as part of your kit, I encourage you to make conscious choices about your construction method and have your plates custom cut instead of using the mass-produced stamped plates available through several SCA vendors. (One source for this is Polar Bear Forge.) Little details like that will help you avoid the cookie-cutter look.

[John S.]

For Michael....

If you are getting the same answer from:
(1) the evidence (physical, art, or literature) you have from your time and culture of interest,
(2) extrapolating from neighboring cultures in your time period of interest, and
(2) interpolating from evidence within your culture of interest but before and after your time of interest,
then you can feel like your conclusions are on more firm ground.

For the Rus specifically, use caution with SCA resources and popular garb interpretations that are influenced by later ethnic clothing. Many of these represent a useful starting point, but need to be taken with a grain of salt.

(I'm operating from memory on the next example, so hopefully I don't have to retract this later.) Even a useful resource like Sofya la Rus's website http://sofyalarus.info/Russia/ offers conclusions partially based on her translations of a very dated publication. "Clothing of Russians of the XIII-XVII Centuries" by M.G. Rabinovich was a mid-20th century work based on ethnic costumes. It would have been groundbreaking for Western audiences when translated just-post-Glasnost, but makes overly broad statements which don't seem up to current scholarly standards.

Get yourself a copy of:
*Drevnaya Rusa: Byt 1 Kultura (There a few spellings of this title floating around.) This is in Russian, so look at the line drawings and treat it as an encyclopedia of artifacts.
*Every Rus-related Osprey or Osprey-esque book by Nicolle or Gorelik. Treat the artist illustrations as loose inspiration only since there will be details wrong with all of them. Read the books for a general overview, mine them for pictures (artifacts, stone cuttings, wall paintings, icons, etc....), look at the bibliography at the end, and then track down any interesting resources from the bibliography.

[Egfroth]

I just remembered another representation of a Byzantine wearing lamellar over mail. It's in the Osprey book Byzantine armies 886-1118 (not sure about those dates). There's a photo of a carved ikon (steatite, I think) bearing representations of three military saints - St Theodore, St George and St Demetrius. One of the three has lamellar over mail.

Aha! I've found it! It's the 9th ikon from the top here. And a pretty damned cool site, if I may say so.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Orthodox icons aren't the most valuable source of information concerning clothing and armament, mostly due to the traditional aspects of their details. The influence of Greek motifs is particularly problematic when trying to discern regional distinctions. However, there are sometimes interesting ideas that can be gleaned from them... I recently snapped some photos of some of the medieval Russian iconography housed in the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow, and have uploaded the photos to a Flickr gallery. It can be viewed below:

Tretyakov Gallery Medieval Martial Depictions

Perhaps this might be of interest to someone. Cheers!

-Gerhard