German Man-at-Arms 1330-50

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:15 pm

I want to start a kit for a German soldier around 1330-50. Not really particular to any fighting group/country. Just a normal German soldier that would have enough money to have respectable armor. Are there many advancements in German armor/soft kit through these years so that I may need to specify the actual date? Armor? Soft kit? Any suggestions are appreciated. I want a CoP so I think that would fly but would full metal arms/legs apply as well, or just splinted?

Thanks,
Aedan

Ean · Post by **Ean** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:30 pm

mail

c.o.p.

heater shield

Bacinet

knee and elbow cops

you know...just more german

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:23 am

What about arms and legs? Would it have been splinted or full metal? I want full metal but I also want to be period and I don't really want to go past 1350AD. Would it have been the "latest" in armor to have the full metal arms and legs?

Also, the mail...a full sized shirt or just half-sleeves? And by "more German" do you mean fluting? The Gothic didn't come until later...or did it?

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:30 am

I suppose you could have solid plates but as a soldier I think splints would be more likely. Also splinted armour appears (from what I have seen) to have been more popular in germany than elsewhere in europe so another few steps closer to splinted armour for limbs, although it would depend on what type of soldier and your place of society, wealth etc..

RPM

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am

I haven't gotten that detailed into the persona yet. But do you think anyone could clarify the sections/status levels of the mid 14th century German military? Would it matter which region I came from? Say on the German/Holland border? Sorry there are so many questions like this but I just want to get everything they way that it should be. Thanks again!
Aedan

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:55 am

Ok so I have decided on a fairly wealthy Sergeant. One that would be under a Lord or king but also have land. One that would be able to afford the latest in armor and also afford to have his own heraldry (if heraldry was present at the time). One that would have a relatively large manor overlooking his land and be in constant contact with the lord/king of the region. I have not decided which region yet...But I am looking at the (modern day) Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) along the Netherland/German border. Pretty much a lowland guy, but fairly wealthy with land.
What are the styles in this region/period?
And what about documentation?
What affect would that status have on the armor/soft kit for the time?
Aedan

(edited R.O.C)

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:04 am

(commenting on SCA Allowed titles, Knights, Men at arms, Masters at arms, previous posts cut R.o.C Ed.),

It is an easy mistake, and one I am sure I made when I started so many years ago.

Specially since I started in Atlantia, which did not make Masters, so I am sure I confused the two, when I first started.

As far as if Man-at-arms would fly or not, its all in how the context goes.

In SCA, a lot of folks are man-at-arms to a knight, before they become squires. That is how my household is setup, you come in as a man-at-arms, and if we both believe we are good for each other in a year or more, then I will ask them to become my squire.

But there is nothing that is stopping you from saying you are a man-at-arms to some historical person if thats what you wanted to do for now.

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:58 am

Ok...I will figure all of that out in time, the actual persona that is. So what type of soft kit/armor was there for a Sergent at that time? A usual upper class German soldier? Is there any historical documentation for this time frame and region? Or is it going to be just another typical SCAdian kit?

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:26 pm

Osprey has a book, Medieval German Armies 1300-1500, that has some good ideas and source information. Also David Nicolle's Big Green Book, formally called Arms and Armour of Crusading Era, Wester Europe and the Latin East. Tons of line drawings taken from effigies, manuscripts and bas-reliefs. For common soldiers, look for the Strasbourg Altarpiece drawings, they show soldiers of the time.

Aedan MacCarroll · Post by **Aedan MacCarroll** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:24 pm

Ok so i just recieved my German Medieval Armies 1300-1500 in the mail today...awesome book with real life effigies that are documented! However, what interests me is the splinted armor that these guys are wearing. After researching and all that good stuff...the splinted armor has grown on me and I would like to integrate it into the kit, which according to the book, is very easy. But it seems that the metal was on the Outside of the leather. Not only in the drawn pictures (which i realize are a bit artistic) but also in the effigies that are documented. Do the splinted arms along with full metal legsand greaves go along together? I love the look of greaves (and it shows them in this book) but I cant find the evidence of splinted greaves to match the splinted legs. I also rather like the Kettle hat that is shown here around the middle of the 14th C. Mail was of course popular under the CoPs. And also a very interesting aspect are the chains that were attached in order to secure ones sword/shield/dagger to ones body.

Any comments/critiques on this matter? Any help is appreciated!

Thanks,
Aedan

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:42 pm

Aedan,

Splints are not always on the outside. It depends on what part. Most cuisses are inside, greaves and vambraces vary between the two but from what I have seen it is more often inside but you can do what you like with reasonable accuracy.

RPM

Tim Antonov · Post by **Tim Antonov** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:22 am

What other helmets would this kind of persona have? Other than Bacinet or a kettle helm I mean?

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:30 pm

Actually, I think it would make more sense for the splints to be on the outside, to help save the leather. If you slice the leather up, then it may fall apart or something.

I have no historical backing for this comment, but that's just how I've felt about the splints.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:07 pm

Tim Antonov wrote:What other helmets would this kind of persona have? Other than Bacinet or a kettle helm I mean?

A sallet is an option. Possibly of the "Black Sallet" design
http://houseasgard.com/asgardpic/armorh ... allet1.jpg

Sorry, just looked at the timeframe. The "Black Sallet" is probably a little to late. At least that helmet which link I posted. circa 1490

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:43 pm

Historically, the term "man-at-arms" simply refers to "knightly" heavy cavalry (mounted or dismounted), whether actually a knight, squire, or simply a guy well off enough to serve in the role.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Michael, thanks very much for the clarification. I hope that the term man at arms (latin: gen d'armes) escapes assimilation into some sort of rank structure, though the way Syr Finn is using it equates to historical practice in certain places and times. I am a man at arms, Sir Vitus is a man at arms, Duke Jade of Starfall is a man at arms.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

elden · Post by **elden** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:16 am

Does anyone have suggestions for manuscripts or other such sources from this time and place? I'm aware of the Manesse Codex (wikipedia says 1305-1340), but I'd be interested to learn of other similar sources, especially available online.

What other books would be useful to learn more about this portrayal? Osprey can't be the be all and end all, can it?

Re helmets, the member of the C14th helmet trifecta not yet mentioned is the cervelliere! Does anyone know what the german name was for such a helmet at the time?

Here are some depictions of simple bowl type helmets in the Manesse codex. Some seem to have a drape of cloth/leather at the back of the neck, others might even have an aventail attached.
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0717
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0713
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0631
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0628
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0541
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0454
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0448

"Der DÃ¼ring" linked above from the Manessa shows soldiers at a seige that seem to have uniform, featureless black legs and feet. Does this indicate long boots, a lack or artistic detail, or something else? I'm aware of the dangers of trying to read too much into manuscripts, but if anyone's got evidence for the footwear of troops like our sergeant, I'm interested.

Is there any surviving mail from this period? I'm wondering about ring diameter and profile, rivet type, use of solid rings etc.

svonbaden · Post by **svonbaden** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:16 pm

So the next-to-last picture shows someone wearing what seems to be an obvious example of scale armor. It seems to me that I've read that scale was correct for the period in question as well.

How common was it? As common as CoP's? Less common?

svonbaden · Post by **svonbaden** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:40 am

not sure bumpage is allowed here, but I'd really like to know from the experts if (and what kind, if any) scale armor was used in the period in question in the H.R.E.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:33 am

Well, according to David Nicolle, scale armour was worn over maille in the Empire and Spain, based on manuscript drawings. In the German and Italian imperial areas it looks like the heyday of this style was the early 1300s, until coats of plates took over completely as the extra layer of torso defence worn over maille. It isn't a very common style, but you can see it. In Spain, you're looking at the 1200s, with a distict byzantine flair after the mid 1200s, supposedly after the Catalans sent a large mercenary contingent to Byzantium. there are more manuscripts showing this style in Spain, than ones showing it in Italy and Germany. All this information is paraphrased from Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, my favourite armour resource.

svonbaden · Post by **svonbaden** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:13 pm

So there it was in use for about fifty years, but it was never widespread?

thanks for the response. I'll see if I can lay my hands on a copy of the aforementioned book.

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:38 am

Would the guys wearing only the coifs on thier heads be lower class fellers? I'd assume so since they're using crossbows. Or would these guys be of some standing?

Here's the pic for reference:

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlu ... d=PAGE0454

Thanks,
Christopher

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:54 pm

Given that they are crossbowmen, yes, they are lower class. Meaning they are commoners. They could be burghers from one of the Imperial cities and fairly wealthy, esp. with all that armour. I'm not sure what scene the Codex is illustrating in the image, so I can't comment further.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Sat May 17, 2008 12:59 am

could be mercs as well. Germany is big on paid soldiers, crossbowmen seem to be one of the main types of mercenaries employed as well. Still most likely commoners. There are effigies of knights in scale so we should not dismiss it completely, though it seems less common than other defences.

RPM

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:33 pm

Tha's why I keyed in on the weapons and not the armour. For the Manesse Codex time period, they are in fairly up to date armour. Did the German towns hire out thier soldiers the way the Italians did?

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:11 pm

Next question on that pic; What is the horizontal band on their head? Is that part of the coif (on the scale guy it looks like a seperate coif rather than a hood), or something to hold it still?

And does anyone have larger versions of these?

Thanks,
Christopher

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:39 am

Fearghus,

It depends. Earlier on town militias play a more central part. Usually towns being ordered to provide a set number of men. Until the mid 15th usually about split in two horsemen and crossbowmen. The Gleven remained in use as a major recruitment method until the 15th sometime. All lords, secular or spiritual were required to provide a set number of gleven, which is a 'lance' like unit.

Since you could not always get the full numbers or it was easier mercenaries became part of it becoming very very common in the 15th, some towns and cities having almost completely merc forces provided at times.

I have not studied german recruitment in detail so this is generally what I have picked up.

RPM

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:41 am

doktormean wrote:how about shoulders for this persona, any one got any info?

early style spaulders or simple metal/leather disks on the top of the shoulder is my guess.

elden · Post by **elden** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:14 am

doktormean wrote:how about shoulders for this persona, any one got any info?

Gambeson and mail cover the shoulders, which is a pretty good start. There were shoulder defenses found at Wisby which were designed to be worn on top of all that. I believe they're mostly thought to have been attached to a coat of plates.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:26 am

IWTB a 1340's German dude.

After perusing http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... figies.htm and looking at effigies from http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm specifically this guy:

Margrave Rudolph IV of Baden-Durlach 1346

I envision a kit something like this (SCA):

Body: Padded gambeson -> mail hauberk -> COP w/integrated shoulders (see pic?) -> Surcoat

Arms: Floating elbow with hidden forearm protection.

Hands: Could I get away with doing some type of Wisby finger gauntlet?

Legs: Gamboised or studded leather cuisses with knee cop over mail chausses.

Helm: This one I'm unsure of. I'd like to do a visored sugarloaf, but I'm not sure if that'll work for the time period/locale.

Also I think the surcoats with the long back and short front (mullet surcoats!) to show off the COP and mail are dead sexy, but again not sure if they're correct for the time period/locale.

I've got an idea bouncing in my head about an integrated gorget/chainmail mantle, we'll see.

I think the mail would be the mostly costly portion of this kit and might be a later addition. The rest of the kit (with the exception of the helm) I think I could either make or get on the cheap.

I've also considered faking the chainmail hauberk a little, and just having sleeves and a bit of a skirt showing under the COP to cut down on weight/cost.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:23 am

Anyone?

Edward MacTavish · Post by **Edward MacTavish** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:15 am

I could be blind but I am not seeing a question in your post? I do have some of the chain mail pieces you stated. theres benifits to both a full shirt and the sleaves and skirt.

Edward

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:39 pm

My apologies, I should have worded it better. I am wondering if a visored sugarloaf and the surcoat that is long in the back and short in the front are appropriate to this time and place.

Chris Cottrell · Post by **Chris Cottrell** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:25 pm

Folcric wrote: Arms: Floating elbow with hidden forearm protection.

Folcric,

That effigy is totally wearing jack chains on his arms. You should rock some jack chains.

Edward MacTavish · Post by **Edward MacTavish** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:05 pm

I believe that they would be good together. I do not have access to my books right now, but I believe that they would be feasable,

Edward

German Man-at-Arms 1330-50

German Man-at-Arms 1330-50

Manuscripts?