IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

Odd Ulfsson · Post by **Odd Ulfsson** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:44 am

I'm getting ready to step down as baron of my group and I'd like to re-focus my persona some. I've always been interested in the Italian Condottierri, but I'm looking for more info.

What I've got is 1390's under the leadership of Alberico da Barbiano on campaign through Italy. Now I'm looking for the finer details to polish up the persona i.e. soft kit for a soldier when not fighting, fighting kit for a foot soldier of the time, what he would have carried while on campaign, what kind of pay would he have received, and any other details I've overlooked.

Gio

jcesarelli · Post by **jcesarelli** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:21 pm

I have a copy of this book and it is an invaluable reference, get one if you can.

Mercenaries and their Masters
Michael Mallett
ISBN 0370105028

I have seen this sell for as much as 300 dollars at some online booksellers.

jcesarelli · Post by **jcesarelli** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:54 pm

Another good book is:
The Condottiere; Soldiers of Fortune
Geoffrey Trease
Holt, Rinehart and Winston 1971

A review from Amazon.com:
"This book is one of the few narrative available in English on the Italian Condotta period (1320-1500 approximately). It is unfortunately out of print but can be found relatively easily. BTW, the 1971 US edition is actually the second edition. The book was originally published in England by Thames and Hudson in 1970.

And you can tell the author is English, because of his obvious admiration for the English Condottiere John Hawkwood, a.k.a. Giovanni Acuto, a.k.a. Jean de l'Aiguille. But Italian condottieri are not forgotten: Sforza father and son, Braccio, Carmagnola, Malatesta, Montefeltro, Colleoni, Gattamelata and others, ending with Giovanni delle Bande Nere in the 16th Century. And all political figures of the times are present: the Visconti, the Florentines, the Popes, the Aragonese and Angevins Kings of Naples, for whom the Condottieri fought. There are many illustrations, almost one per page, usually representing historical characters in contemporary artworks (statues, paintings, frescoes, coins...)

The book is for the general reader, not for the professional historian. Trease's narrative make it a fascinating read, despite the rather repetitive and complicated list of treachery and backstabbing. It is not a scholarly work: the bibliography is short, almost no primary sources are mentioned and you will not find a discussion of available sources, nor the laundry list of Francesco Sforza.

On the negative side, the author describes the historical events in a purely factual, almost naive way, and does not attempt to understand the motivation and aspirations of the man of the Quattrocento. The book is written like an adventure novel, and, in my humble opinion, it fails to convey the passionate and cruel nature of the times (even if it describes it). But I enjoyed it a lot. "

Segehardt · Post by **Segehardt** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:03 am

If you didn't get a chance at that book before it ended, I would check with fetchbook.info

Similar to looking for cheap flights or hotels it checks with a number of booksellers to find you the lowest going price among used or new. That book listed as 75.00 USD but also went as high as 240.00.

LWCM · Post by **LWCM** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:14 pm

Sorry for the bump folks but I was wondering if anyone had other info beyond what might be in this expensive book? I'm looking for hard and soft kit info for Italy around this date (1380-1410 or so).

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:05 pm

For a great little illumination of two men sparring in farsetti (farsetto is the word for Italian arming doublets at the time and through the 15thc), the book The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti is a great buy. The illuminations date from about 1390 or a bit later and were created in Lombardy, which is Northern Italy. The source is the Tacuinum Sanitatis now housed in Vienna, Austria. There are other famous extant TS manuscripts, and you can see a nice sampling of them in The Medieval Health Handbook, also a reasonably-priced book. These books will give you great detail on civilian clothing of the time and place (Italy) as well as tons of material culture info. But I think the picture of the two guy sparring is worth it alone.

Lastly, the Mandragore website (part of the BnF) has one of the TS manuscripts online. If you search on "Mandragore" in the Historical Research forum, you'll probably find instructions for how to find some of the best 14th/15th century manuscripts using their French-language site.

I know I've posted them a few times, but I've got to run right now.

-Tasha

Micah Nelson · Post by **Micah Nelson** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:33 pm

Ask Josh Warren.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:20 pm

I'd like to stretch this out to 1430 - 1450, as a light calvary lancer. I don't know if it would be better to start a new thread or just continue this Italian Condottierri in the same vein.

1) Size and breed of horse
2) Saddle and tack, type of bridle, spurs, etc...
3) Amount of, and type of armour
4) Arming doublet, hose and boot style
5) General clothing
6) Personal items

I am thinking a 15 hand tall horse, roughly 1200 lbs., but I'm not sure on the tack. It certainly wouldn't be a massive jousting or war saddle like Jeff Hedgecock has on his site, rather something like a stripped down McClellan or Andulusian saddle? The bridle - behind the ears? Wrap-around the nose or a straight pull? 2 rein or 1? Snaffle or curb bit? Any type of barding? Saddle bag? Bedroll? Would I have carried all of my belongings on one horse, or would some things be on a wagon?

I'm going with a brigadine, cuisses, arms and small pauldrons. I have (and really like) a barbuta, but wonder if a mail standard rather than a gorget would be appropriate. Either voiders or a light mail shirt underneath. Leather gloves rather than gauntlets.
A lance 8 - 10' long, straight with no vamplate. Hand-and-a-half sword, bullock dagger with byknife and pricker, kidney purse, fire starter and some form of canteen.

I'm not sure of the design of the arming doublet, but I assume full woolen hosen with codpiece, and hip boots similar to Historic Enterprises. Rondel spurs preferably steel, perhaps gilded?

What about civilian clothing?

Comments?

Odd Ulfsson · Post by **Odd Ulfsson** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:24 pm

Bwu-Hahaha!!!

But back to the matter at hand, it looks like I'm going to be going with a more northern Italian persona of the late 14th cent. In looking around I've seen all sorts of bascinet styles used and I really like Matt's oniontop which I feel is the direction I want to pursue. Once I've got that going I'll be looking into a corrazina for the body. We'll see from there.

Gio

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:01 pm

I've got one (a corrazina) I bought at Pennsic a few years back that is black leather covered aluminum. I haven't fought in it, but I didn't feel it was appropriate with the barbuta and I already have a segmented steel breast & rivited mail shirt with a basinet. (late 14th C. 100 Years War French/English). I paid $450.00 from that armourer behind Charlies pewter on Merchant Row. I forget his name, but he had some nice stuff. If you're interested, I'll get some pictures together and you can make an offer. Meanwhile, I should have my brig in the next 2 weeks.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:51 am

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:38 pm

Yes, Tasha you're right. It's been a while since I've been to Pennsic or been involved with the SCA plus age is taking its toll...

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:41 am

Here is a pic of me getting armoured up for a demo - I am wearing part of my C 1390-1410 northern italian martial kit here. I still need to get cased greaves and maille sabatons though (and several other bits). Maybe this will help ya'll out?

Soft kit:
bleached linen undergarments (shirt, boxer-style braies)
split wool flannel hose that go up to just below the hip and have about 2/3 coverage (point at 3 places on the top)
linen gambeson (legs and hose are pointed to it - a proper fit is *essential* to make this work right)
wool knee-wraps
low leather boots
wool hat

(brigandine gorget is totally modern, but it is a handy bit of safety gear - I may be getting something a bit different to wear with the full harness)

The legs are speculative based of the Churburg S-13 suit, but have some aspects of early 15th C design and some of the late 14th C. I will probably be selling these off in the future to get a set more inline with the early 15th C look.

I have a red, wool-covered corrizzina to go with this and a maille haubergon (that needs some work, but it's gettin there) - arms, gauntlets and early armet will be basically those from the S-18.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:49 am

oh - one note on corrizzinas... mine is like the Bashford Dean and Pistoia altar piece examples, with the straight-plate faulds. I would go with the hoop-faulds, as these are not just more correct for someone who would often be mounted, but they make squatting and sitting much easier. The straight fauld plates are great until you try and sit down... then not so great.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:50 pm

I'd be interested to see the entire harness. Especially this "early armet". I know that they were developing in the middle of the century, but it seems to me in 1390 you would have a bascinet with a camail, then by 1415 perhaps a "grand bascinet" with an attached plate gorget.
Most of the armets were later 15th, early 16th C. with close helms taking over about 1525. Can you post a link to this S-18 that you reference?

I could be wrong, it has happened in the past...

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:22 pm

Bascot wrote:I'd be interested to see the entire harness. Especially this "early armet". I know that they were developing in the middle of the century, but it seems to me in 1390 you would have a bascinet with a camail, then by 1415 perhaps a "grand bascinet" with an attached plate gorget.
Most of the armets were later 15th, early 16th C. with close helms taking over about 1525. Can you post a link to this S-18 that you reference?

I could be wrong, it has happened in the past...

As far as I know there are only 2 extant 'early armets' - dated between about 1410 and 1430. Both are in the Churburg Armoury. Grand bascinets were essentially exclusively for the joust and bascinets with maille aventails were still very common up to about 1410-1420 based on my searches.

The S-18 is a composite suit with bits dating as early as 1390 (I believe) and as late as about 1430. I believe it was a later composite, so there is no evidence that the particular harness was worn together at any time. Here is a link to an older picture it: http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/churburg_s18.jpg

The other armet is this one (T57 I believe) : http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/early_armet_med.jpg

While the S-18 armet clearly had a visor (which is speculated to have been something like a great bascinet of roughly the same period), the 57 either didn't have one or it attached in some manner that doesn't survive.

You can also see similar helmets illustrated in 2 italian combat manuscripts attributed to Fiore Dei Liberi and dated to around 1410. The Novati facsimile of the Pissani-Dossi Flos Duellatorum, if accepted as a faithful reproduction of the original in the Pissani-Dossi collection (the original is not available), shows a couple of armets precisely like the T57. There is at least one in the Getty Fior di Battaglia as well (for which scans of the original are available). The Getty also shows a bunch of other helm types that we see in other art and extant from that period.

Here is a link to a scan of the Novati that shows what I mean: http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl23.jpg

And an example from the getty (I have a higher res B/W scan, but this was easier to post): http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/im ... 352101.jpg

Hope that helps.

Edited to add:

oops - told a lie, there is one other early armet I have seen, one that was once associated with a composite suit in a private collection in Berlin (Karstein Klingbeil I think - it is attached). I don't have any more information on this suit though. I think the Armet is earlier than the rest, and there is definitely something strange about the way the maille is attached - the gap in the front is probably incorrect.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:23 pm

That last one is real close to what My 1450 harness is modeled after, although I went with a frog-mouthed jousting grand bascinet instead of an armet. It is the French-style bacinetto from Francesco Missaglia, Milan found in the Churburg Castle, belonging to Ulrich IX, Lord of Matsch.

In the same book there is a large Venetian style helmet from the beginning of the 15th C. that looks more like a visored great helm, but has hinged cheek pieces. It says: Museco Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the armour marks P & N.

The book is Mediaeval Arms and Armour by Francesco Rossi.

I'm sorry, but I've been without a computer for 3 years, so I don't have pics to post.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:30 am

Bascot wrote: In the same book there is a large Venetian style helmet from the beginning of the 15th C. that looks more like a visored great helm, but has hinged cheek pieces. It says: Museco Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy. It was discovered in the Greek castle of Chalcis and bears the armour marks P & N.

The book is Mediaeval Arms and Armour by Francesco Rossi.

Interesting, I'll have to see if I can find that. Sounds like an interesting piece.

LWCM · Post by **LWCM** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 pm

there is definitely something strange about the way the maille is attached - the gap in the front is probably incorrect.

Yeah, that reads to me as a bright neon sign that says: "Insert pointy thing here."

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Fri May 28, 2010 4:59 am

I'm thinking about updating my persona about 1500 years, and looking into being--essentially--Fiore dei Liberi. For the record, everything here is for SCA use.

From the ground up, I'm looking to do this right, and would like to look like I sprang whole from the Flower of Battle. Thing is, while I've been studying Fiore's manuals for some time now, I don't know much at all about the armor or clothing of the period.

Ideally, and this would be a several year project, I want to be able to fight heavy SCA combat looking like this:

and do SCA cut-and-thrust in something closer to civilian clothing with pieces of the SCA hard kit. I want to be able to dress as both a soldier and a civilian of the period. What exactly am I looking at here?

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Fri May 28, 2010 6:06 am

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote: Ideally, and this would be a several year project, I want to be able to fight heavy SCA combat looking like this:

and do SCA cut-and-thrust in something closer to civilian clothing with pieces of the SCA hard kit. I want to be able to dress as both a soldier and a civilian of the period. What exactly am I looking at here?

My kit (and the direction I am taking it in) comes from the same time period and region in inspiration. As far as Fiore goes, he was an older guy (probably in his 50s or 60s) at the time of the writing of his MSs (~1410). But the armor shown is still contemporary for the period of the MSs.

As far as the armor goes, those two are probably wearing fabric covered cuirasses with faulds (this and the 'white harness' were both still popular). The rest of the harness (arms and legs) would be basically the same as one would find circa 1390 - so they would probably have the smaller club-shaped fans at the elbow and knee that were fashionable in the 14th C as opposed to the much larger elbows and knees of the later 15th C. Fully enclosed greaves would have been in use by folks in full harness. Hourglass finger gauntlets would still be in use (though 'proto-mittens' start to show up by the 1420s). The helmets in some of the Dei Liberi MSs really look like early armets or great bascinets, but the early armets don't appear to have been very popular based on other artwork. Pig-faced, side-pivot bascinets still show up in this period. There is a possibility that a maille shirt that extended into a skirt would have been worn instead of the voiders that appear later, because one italian fashion was to wear the sleeves of the shirt over the upper cannons of the arm harness, but under the shoulder defences (which were either spaulders as in the late 14th C, with larger 'early pauldrons' coming into use).

I'd check out pics of the S-18 suit to see what the underlying metal bits could have looked like (it is just an easy one for me to reference, even though it is a composite and the helmet and gauntlets are a fairly uncommon type. The shoulders are a bit dodgy with the harness but illustrate a type of early pauldron).

And a reference pic for the legs: http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/leg ... 1410_2.jpg

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Sat May 29, 2010 5:57 am

Thanks for the help, is there anyone who knows a SCA armorer who makes a helmet like this?

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Sun May 30, 2010 10:33 am

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:Thanks for the help, is there anyone who knows a SCA armorer who makes a helmet like this?

when I got my S-18 made, it was an outstanding custom job by a guy named Oleg Yanchuk in the Ukraine - he goes by Eisenberg here. I think one of the guys from Windrose is making one too. I don't think anyone does them as 'stock' items because they aren't as popular as Bascinets and require a much more precise fit.

nakos · Post by **nakos** » Sun May 30, 2010 2:18 pm

Phoenix Steel could make something like that for you if your interested.

Nakos

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:52 pm

Can anyone tell me about the soft kit for 1410 Italy? From my quick glance, it seems like I'm looking at joined hosen and a cotehardie. Is there any difference between the Italian and English/French cotehardie pattern? Any difference between the pattern here and the ones from 1380?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Should I be wearing some version of the gown that seems to become popular later in the century. I looked through my copy of Medieval Tailor's Assistant, but early 15th Italian is somewhat skipped over.

gracemartinx · Post by **gracemartinx** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:31 pm

I found this while doing other research, and thought you might be interested . . .

http://books.google.com/books?id=miknAA ... er&f=false

It is regarding a book called "The Age of the Condottieri: A Short History of Medieval Italy from 1409 to 1530".

And as for your soft kit, a paternoster would be an appropriate accessory, especially in Italy.

Grace Martin
www.paternosterladies.etsy.com

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:41 pm

Thank you very much, I'm going to have a friend get me a copy from the University Library.

Ouroboros · Post by **Ouroboros** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:41 pm

jcesarelli wrote:I have a copy of this book and it is an invaluable reference, get one if you can.

Mercenaries and their Masters
Michael Mallett
ISBN 0370105028

I have seen this sell for as much as 300 dollars at some online booksellers.

Looks like ithis has been reprinted as of 2009 and can be found on Amazon (first editions also available at reasonable prices there):

http://www.amazon.com/MERCENARIES-THEIR ... 857&sr=8-1

andrewgauger · Post by **andrewgauger** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:40 pm

From northern Italy (Papal States)... ie north of Rome.
From the early 15th century (after 1410 and before 1440).
In the Condottier profession.
Utilizing a combination of maile for flexible portions and plate for the larger more solid regions.
The persona is regarding SCA hardsuit, persona an infantryman.

Comments (especially images to kits that fit this), a source of names would be nice (I was browsing the Florence Census from this time line, but can't seem to find it again), and appropriate heraldry images would be appreciated.

I am reading
http://www.scribd.com/doc/39690490/armo ... -1300-1500
and am still looking for more information.

andrewgauger · Post by **andrewgauger** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:31 pm

I had a heck of a time finding this again after I found it the first time, so I'm posting it. This is a list of names in a searchable format from the Census of 1427 at Florence, Italy. In case you need some name ideas or documentation.

http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/catasto/main.php

Andrea Ferrara · Post by **Andrea Ferrara** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:13 am

I want to look into looking like an Italian Noble or Knight of lowish standard in later 14th to early 15th century from northern Italy which possibility of german influence and maybe even around lombardy or another italian/german area. I already a decently 14th century build, My helmet just to warn you was a "Its already made, it fits me, i dont have to wait to get on the field, and yes I know its an english sallet"

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:45 pm

Heavily illustrated Venetian manuscript on the Trojan War from c. 1370. Lots of mail, and some good costuming for the eastern side of the Adriatic.
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/list/one/cb/0078

A few samples:
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/cb/0078/11r/large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/cb/0078/25v/large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/cb/0078/42r/large

WolfgangVonMunch · Post by **WolfgangVonMunch** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Andrea Ferrara wrote:I want to look into looking like an Italian Noble or Knight of lowish standard in later 14th to early 15th century from northern Italy which possibility of german influence and maybe even around lombardy or another italian/german area. I already a decently 14th century build, My helmet just to warn you was a "Its already made, it fits me, i dont have to wait to get on the field, and yes I know its an english sallet"

as far as i know the sallet was more or less continental, with variations depending on what sort of armor it was originally designed for, but if you were a noble or knight serving as a Mercanary, you could explain away minor details like that as 'the helmet was on sale for 40 florins, only slightly bloodstained, how could i say no?'
this observation and position of 'eh, close enough' brought to you by the guy who hasn't been to practice in nearly a year, so take it with a grain of salt...
or, if you prefer, a whole shaker full

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:51 pm

This thread, on the effigy of Jacopo Cavalli at Venice, is relevant.

There are some good North Italian manuscripts in the BNF Mandragore database, such as "Français 343" (enter it, with the accent on the C, under "Cote" and click "Chercher").

Edit: Their Italian Tacuinum Sanitatis from the 1390s is also useful, since its full of detailed illuminations of people from all walks of life. Readers of Daily Life in Chaucer's England will find many familiar. Its Nouvelle acquisition latine 1673.

Douglas Strong is coming out with his book of surviving 14th century armour in the next year or two. He seems to plan to publish with Freelance Academy Press.

Joshua S · Post by **Joshua S** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:54 am

This thread is very helpful.

I wanna be a Mid to Late 15th Century Italian Condottieri.

I have designed my hard kit which will be posted soon.

Yet I have questions regarding the soft kit aspect.

What do I need essentially for the soft kit? I am looking at either Historical Enterprises or Revival Clothing for the soft kit pieces.

Any help is appreciated, thank you.

Joshua Santana
Condottieri in Training

IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

I WTB Late 14th Century Condottierri

Paternoster

I too wish for the Condottier life

Catasto of 1427 (Census) of Florence

Re: IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

Re: IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

Re: IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

Re: IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's

Re: IWTB a Italian Condottierri 1390's