I want to be a French knight in 1380

[Tailoress]

I looked at the thread list and none of them really come close to this one:

I want to be a French knight in 1380.

There are some semi-nearby threads, but how about one devoted to that particular year and place/political allegience? I know that general impression has been discussed through the years over and over again here, but it would be nice to have one of these "I wanna be..." threads devoted to capturing the sources. Specifically, a knight in full martial harness.

What I'm looking for is primary sources of any kind (textual, visual, surviving items, etc.) that either bracket that time, come within 10 years of it but within the geographical boundary, or perhaps match the time but come from a neighboring geographical location, etc. Commentary about interpretation of sources would be welcome too.

Thanks,
Tasha

[Tailoress]

Dress in Mediaeval France -- Joan Evans
Great source for French clothing terms with some excellent references to noble male dress, including, here and there, knights and squires; references primary textual sources; a few good visual sources too.

Lancelot du Lac et la quête du Graal -- Bibliothèque nationale de France
Large size reproduction of BnF MS Français 343; editorial text in French, original text in French. Though executed in Lombardy (The central portion of northernmost Italy today), the illuminations appear to be influenced by French martial culture.

More as I have time.

[Tailoress]

Tresors de la Cathedrale de Chartres, Pages 63-71: Armures et vetements royaux. "Jacque ou pourpoint destine a un adolescent". by Isabelle Bedat and "S.M."

This is the portion of this publication that discusses the so-called jupon of Charles VI. Excellent technical detail about the materials and techniques used to construct the jupon. Good pictures in color. In French, though.

The Journal of the CHurch Monuments Society Volume VIII, 1993: The Jupon or Coat-Armour of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral. by Janet Arnold

While this article (in English) is about the Prince of England who died in 1376, the Plantagenets ruled over a sizeable chunk of Western France and spent a lot of their time there. It's arguable that the analysis of this garment can be applied in the making of a jupon for a French nobleman.

-Tasha

[Aengas]

There is a book I picked up in France, put out by the Musee de Normandie (printed by Skira in Italy) called La Normandie dans la guerre de Cent Arns 1346-1450. It's listed on Amazon, but as unavailable. Though not a primary source, obviously, it does have great documentation of the many wonderful images to be found throughout. Many of the images are extant pieces of armour, covering both 14th and 15th century.

ISBN-10: 8881185520
ISBN-13: 978-8881185528

I paid 185,50 francs for it originally (listed at 195F), which works out to about 50 dollars US now. The French version of Amazon has it for 19,50 euros ($30.57) however.

Hope this helps!

[Tancred de Lanvellec]

Cool topic, Tasha. The Lancelot manuscripts are neat.

I love this one: Just a flesh wound, sir.

[Tailoress]

Okay, I found a pic I've been looking for. Cet, this is the one I was asking you about.

The Tomb of Francois de la Sarra, constructed circa 1390:

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/armourarchiv ... a_1390.jpg[/img]

The guy died in 1363, but his tomb was finished in 1390 or in that decade. This opens the question of when the armour on the guardian men at arms/knights was designed for the sculpting, but I don't think it could have been too far away from 1380-ish.

[JJ Shred]

Interesting. Not only do they have heavily padded "jupons", but the guy on the right shows his camail (or aventail) is padded as well.
It would be easy to mount the low hip belt on the jupons too.

[Lupus Argenteus]

Forgive me for asking what might be a presumptuous question, as I'm nowhere near knowledgeable about this sort of thing yet, but are they wearing jupons or arming cotes/doublets/whatever-the-proper-term is?

Also, as a more general question, what, if any, are the main differences between English and French arms and garb at this time?

[JJ Shred]

Jupon (14th c.) is a term for the garment worn over the armour, surcoat for earlier periods, gambeson (early periods) or arming doublets (14th c.) under the armour.

French and English armour during the 14th C. was fairly consistent in the knightly classes.

I'm sure Tasha can come up with some heavy jupons for the later 14th c., I would, but I've a new computer and am playing catch-up on "favorites".

Illustrated Froissant will have pictures.

[Tailoress]

Forgive me for asking what might be a presumptuous question, as I'm nowhere near knowledgeable about this sort of thing yet, but are they wearing jupons or arming cotes/doublets/whatever-the-proper-term is?

Also, as a more general question, what, if any, are the main differences between English and French arms and garb at this time?

For the first question: as Bascot mentions, we tend to use the term 'jupon' to refer to over-armour garments -- whether padded or not, sleeveless or not. There's still a lot of discussion around the meaning of the term. When we use cote/doublet/pourpoint, we tend to mean a garment to which armour is pointed. In other words, it goes under the armour as a foundation garment.

For the second question: When you say "arms", do you mean heraldry or do you mean armour and weapons? I'm guessing you mean the latter. I'm trying to answer this question as precisely as possible myself, which is why I started this thread. I figure if I get enough sources in all one place and can recognize distinctive trends, that'll answer the question. If I can't, then I'll be left still wondering.

Here's the thing -- English royalty and knights and various noble hanger-ons spent a lot of time in what was, essentially, French-ish territory -- Acquitaine, Gascony, the like. Edward of Woodstock, Edward III's intended successor, spent way more time there and in France proper (doing naughty chevauchee kind of things) than he did back in England. So, with that in mind, it stands to reason that at least for armour, these guys were wearing virtually the same harnesses. What differed, surely, is their arms (heraldry) and what they yelled in battle.

By the time of 1380, a young Richard II is on the throne in England, and he's more prone to stay there, so I have to wonder if English high fashion and armour took a chance to diverge a little more than normal during those last twenty years of the 14thc. Just musing on my part; this is not a researched statement.

Clothing-wise, yes, by 1400, the two countries have noticeably different fashions, IMO. You can see evidence of this most strikingly in the women's headdresses, and in the shapes and tailoring of the voluminous robes popular at the time, sometimes called houpelandes.

-Tasha

[Lupus Argenteus]

Jupon (14th c.) is a term for the garment worn over the armour, surcoat for earlier periods, gambeson (early periods) or arming doublets (14th c.) under the armour.

Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly enough. I guess what I'm asking, is - do we know that they are, in fact, wearing maille and/or breastplate under those garments? I was asking more as a devil's advocate of confirming that they were in fact jupons.

And the reason I was vague about the other term is that in a few other threads, I've seen a little confusion as to what was being worn underneath at exactly which times, and what to call it.

For the second question: When you say "arms", do you mean heraldry or do you mean armour and weapons?

I did mean armour and weapons in this context.

[Tailoress]

Cool. I've never seen that tomb befor - what book is the image from?

Cet

Of course you would ask me that legitimate question -- and I have no idea.

If anyone does, I hope they will speak up, because I too would like to know where I got this from originally.

-Tasha

[Tailoress]

Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly enough. I guess what I'm asking, is - do we know that they are, in fact, wearing maille and/or breastplate under those garments? I was asking more as a devil's advocate of confirming that they were in fact jupons.

Okay, good exercise. Why would the guys be wearing head, neck, leg and arm armour but forgo defense to the chest? A padded garment by itself isn't much in the way of protection in this time period (I'd like to see its wearer survive a longbow attack), and if a guy can afford to wear arms and legs, he can afford a breastplate, IMO.

On the reverse side, I see these jupons as being somewhat in the same class as the Von Hohenklingen style -- something that can accommodate plate beneath it and above it. Are you familiar with the Ellesmere Chaucer illuminations? Though a good 20 years later than the time we're talking about, the illumination of the knight shows a guy wearing a heavily padded jupon with arming points hanging down from the upper chest -- clearly a garment intended to have a breastplate over it. I'd not think of it as anything but a jupon though, because arm harness can go under it, and a breastplate too, if the guy wants.

There's also some stylization going on for these tomb guards -- note the guy on the left has long sleeves -- is that an arm harness under there? If so, exactly how low-profile are those elbow cops? Extremely, eh? The guy on the right, with short sleeves, shows off a full arm harness. How much is sculptural shorthand, I wonder? But, check this out: the guy on the right is wearing something rather akin to the extant Edward of Woodstock jupon. Some folks think that jupon was originally long-sleeved, but I'm not sold. There are plenty of figural examples from the time showing short-sleeved, padded jupons.

I think these guys are are also intended to be wearing mail, as they have the tell-tale dipping center point sticking out below their jupons.

And the reason I was vague about the other term is that in a few other threads, I've seen a little confusion as to what was being worn underneath at exactly which times, and what to call it.

Yep, there's confusion.

-Tasha

[Lupus Argenteus]

Cool. I've never seen that tomb befor - what book is the image from?

Cet

Of course you would ask me that legitimate question -- and I have no idea.

If anyone does, I hope they will speak up, because I too would like to know where I got this from originally.

-Tasha

I think I found someone else who used it:
http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/North ... odDocs.pdf
In this, they footnote the image (or at least the woman in the background as:
Tomb of Francois de la Sarra, 1390 La Sarraz, France (Photo credit: Cohen,
Kathleen. Metamorphosis of a Death Symbol: The Transi Tomb in the Late
Middle Ages and the Renaissance. University of California Press. 1973.)

There's also a lower-quality but color version of the right-hand standing fellow at http://www2.unil.ch/fra/HistLitt/Cours/ ... valier.htm

Finally (and I really should just complete looking around before I post), it looks like there's this site too:
http://www.athenaeum.ch/sarraz.htm

[Bertus Brokamp]

It's not in France. It's in the western, French-speaking, part of Switzerland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sarraz
The cenotaph is in the Chapelle Saint-Antoine which stands at 100 m distance from the castle. The chapel is normally closed for public and used for weddings and such. So if you want to visit it, you have to politely ask at the castle booth and cross your fingers that no wedding is planned for that day.
It is not known when the cenotaph was constructed, but it is dated to 1380-1400 based on l'analyse plastique des deux chevaliers says the info leaflet I got at the castle booth. The chapel itself was build between 1360 and 1370.

Ah it seems the info on the leaflet can also be found online here:
http://www.athenaeum.ch/sarraz.htm

[Tailoress]

It's not in France. It's in the western, French-speaking, part of Switzerland.

I'm guessing that during the time in question, Sarraz was physically located in the County of Burgundy or possibly just on the Eastern edge (?), which was held by descendants of the French throne and harassed by the German Confederates. Even though it looks like the lords of Sarraz were not vassals to Burgundy, they must have been influenced to at least some degree by Burgundian -- and by extension -- French culture.

In any event, the modern concept of Switzerland isn't really on the radar in 1380-90 -- something I sometimes forget.

-Tasha

[Bertus Brokamp]

I'm guessing that during the time in question, Sarraz was physically located in the County of Burgundy or possibly just on the Eastern edge (?), which was held by descendants of the French throne and harassed by the German Confederates. Even though it looks like the lords of Sarraz were not vassals to Burgundy, they must have been influenced to at least some degree by Burgundian -- and by extension -- French culture.

I googled it a bit and it seems that the area of Vaud, in which La Sarraz is situated, was under control of the counts of Savoye at that time. So if any, they would at least have had a more northern Italian & a bit south eastern French culture influence there.
A map of Savoye:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... Savoy2.PNG

[es02]

Jupon (14th c.) is a term for the garment worn over the armour, surcoat for earlier periods, gambeson (early periods) or arming doublets (14th c.) under the armour.

French and English armour during the 14th C. was fairly consistent in the knightly classes.

Ackerton for 14thC seems to be the generally accepted term.

You can use pretty much any late 14thC armour and get away with it as armour styles did travel, the most popular being Italian harness as far as I can tell. [Which is how I can get away with Churburg harness as an Englishman]

[Bertus Brokamp]

Hi es02,

This is very interesting. I take it you mean the segmented breastplate from Churburg? If so, could you point me to a source from England, showing it was in use there in the 14th c.? Thanks!

Bertus

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I've been watching this topic and hoping for more posts to it.

Guess I will have to spur the conversation myself!

The tomb image that Tasha posted above has very typical armor for the period in question. There is an additional tomb figure that shows very similar armament, but with more detail - a Saint George from a cathedral in Dijon. Does anyone have that image? I know taht it has been posted on the AA several times but I have failed to save it.

My actual question is this - is there any evidence for splinted or not white limb defense being used in 1380 france by the knightly class?

I've looked at quite a few illuminations and some statuary and not found anything. I'm hoping for a cohesive 1380s french look, without having to continuously pound dents after practice...

[Tailoress]

I've been watching this topic and hoping for more posts to it.

Guess I will have to spur the conversation myself!

D'oh. Didn't see this until I followed the link from bkillian's post:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=92983

The St. George figure -- do you mean the one with the bulky jupon holding his sword over his head? I too keep failing to save it. Or maybe it's just that I post from three different computers and any given computer probably doesn't have it.

-Tasha

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Yup that's the one. I found it eventually and actually saved it in several different places so I would always have it!

And to answer Christian's question - I am trying. Right now my helmet is 20 or so years early and my jupon is a single layer for heat and economic reasons. The new hounskull helmet has been comissioned and is being worked on. The jupon - well, we'll see if I bother to do anything about that... Also, though you can't see it in this picture, my case greaves are too small.

[Tailoress]

You're saying that the so-called 'dogface' klappvisor style of bascinet was done with by 1360? I recall an image from an Italian source dated to the early 1370s showing a guy riding around in one, the visor fixed in the up position. I'm staring at it, but my printout doesn't have any source data recorded with it.

$(^%^&#.

I know it came from a Boccia book. Got it from Cet.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

You're saying that the so-called 'dogface' klappvisor style of bascinet was done with by 1360?

Perhaps not done but certainly not the height of fashion. I think of both the klapp arrangement (center hinge) and the so-called dog face as being more of a mid-century development in France and England. I believe it held out much longer in the HRE.

The St. George figure discussed in your last post, and the illuminations from the St. Denis Manuscript in La Bibliotheque Nationale are what I consider to be 1380's French marshal fashion. (Or at least those are the iconic evidence I am using to put together my kit!!)

I wouldn't mind being corrected if I am wrong.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Greaves of some sort are pretty key to an accurate portrayal of this time period. Even a frontal gutter greave makes a kit a lot better.

I'll toss some hopefully interesting and relevantl links at this thread from my blog. The persona I've been researching is Burgundian from 1396, but I've been looking at a lot of armour from that area and era, and much of it is relevant to the discussion here.
Some Burgundian armour, mostly from the last quarter of the 14th century:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html
This gets substantially later, but it's interesting stuff:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... -pics.html

French armour from the same era:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html

Some bits and pieces that make your kit better:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... maile.html

I've seen a general trend in this time that the English are more likely to have exposed arm harnesses, particularly spaulders, than the French are. The French generally prefer to have their jupons over whatever shoulder protection they wore, if they were wearing any besides their avantails and the padding of their garments.

[Gryffinclaw]

Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly enough. I guess what I'm asking, is - do we know that they are, in fact, wearing maille and/or breastplate under those garments? I was asking more as a devil's advocate of confirming that they were in fact jupons.

Okay, good exercise. Why would the guys be wearing head, neck, leg and arm armour but forgo defense to the chest? A padded garment by itself isn't much in the way of protection in this time period (I'd like to see its wearer survive a longbow attack), and if a guy can afford to wear arms and legs, he can afford a breastplate, IMO.

On the reverse side, I see these jupons as being somewhat in the same class as the Von Hohenklingen style -- something that can accommodate plate beneath it and above it. Are you familiar with the Ellesmere Chaucer illuminations? Though a good 20 years later than the time we're talking about, the illumination of the knight shows a guy wearing a heavily padded jupon with arming points hanging down from the upper chest -- clearly a garment intended to have a breastplate over it. I'd not think of it as anything but a jupon though, because arm harness can go under it, and a breastplate too, if the guy wants.

There's also some stylization going on for these tomb guards -- note the guy on the left has long sleeves -- is that an arm harness under there? If so, exactly how low-profile are those elbow cops? Extremely, eh? The guy on the right, with short sleeves, shows off a full arm harness. How much is sculptural shorthand, I wonder? But, check this out: the guy on the right is wearing something rather akin to the extant Edward of Woodstock jupon. Some folks think that jupon was originally long-sleeved, but I'm not sold. There are plenty of figural examples from the time showing short-sleeved, padded jupons.

I think these guys are are also intended to be wearing mail, as they have the tell-tale dipping center point sticking out below their jupons.

And the reason I was vague about the other term is that in a few other threads, I've seen a little confusion as to what was being worn underneath at exactly which times, and what to call it.

Yep, there's confusion.

-Tasha

As it turns out an outer padded garment was excellent protection from arrows at range because it tended to act like modern soft kevlar armor by slowing down projectile speed and catching it between layers.

[Gryffinclaw]

Greaves of some sort are pretty key to an accurate portrayal of this time period. Even a frontal gutter greave makes a kit a lot better.

I'll toss some hopefully interesting and relevantl links at this thread from my blog. The persona I've been researching is Burgundian from 1396, but I've been looking at a lot of armour from that area and era, and much of it is relevant to the discussion here.
Some Burgundian armour, mostly from the last quarter of the 14th century:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html
This gets substantially later, but it's interesting stuff:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... -pics.html

French armour from the same era:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html

Some bits and pieces that make your kit better:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... maile.html

I've seen a general trend in this time that the English are more likely to have exposed arm harnesses, particularly spaulders, than the French are. The French generally prefer to have their jupons over whatever shoulder protection they wore, if they were wearing any besides their avantails and the padding of their garments.

These are right in my time period. Thanks for posting them. I am always looking for some good data to work with.

[Tailoress]

As it turns out an outer padded garment was excellent protection from arrows at range because it tended to act like modern soft kevlar armor by slowing down projectile speed and catching it between layers.

Sort of like trying to rip a yellow pages in half or something? The many layers thwart straight force? Interesting. The Charles VI jupon was something like five layers in the body (outer shell, linen, cotton, linen, and lining, IIRC... books are packed, argh!!!) and seven in the sleeve. I wonder if a re-creation of those layers held up and fired against by a longbow at range would do the trick and if so, what would the percussive damage to a chest be, even if the point itself couldn't drive through the body?

[Tailoress]

To demonstrate that, you'd also need to put on whatever armor would have been underneath it, plus a solid body of some kind (side of beef, whatever).

Well, the context of the original question was whether or not the multi-layered/padded jupon alone would be proof against arrows, thereby reducing the need for a breastplate underneath or over it. The effigy above doesn't show an especially rounded chest. It's possible the guys are depicted not protected with plate... mail maybe. I'm thinking a mail skirt for sure, but a full hauberk..? Dunno.

[Tailoress]

This site is a great boon:

Effigies and Brasses

It was just unveiled the other day by one of our own, Galfrid atte grene.

You can filter by country and year. Lots of French monuments I'd never seen before. The only caution I'd give is that date of death might not always be close to the date of the finished work.

[Tancred de Lanvellec]

Question about splinted leg protection: I know it is rare but is it still seen in 1380?

[dacovalu]

I dont mean to be a pest but does anyone have a pattern for jupons of the sleeveless variety. Im not currently working on my kit for that part of the century but will be at somepoint...

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Question about splinted leg protection: I know it is rare but is it still seen in 1380?

Not in France. Perhaps the HRH, but that is not my area of interest, so can not be certain.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I dont mean to be a pest but does anyone have a pattern for jupons of the sleeveless variety. Im not currently working on my kit for that part of the century but will be at somepoint...

Can you post a picture of what you are planning to make? There is an English sleeveless jupon and a French sleeveless jupon. The cuts are completely different.

[dacovalu]

sorry about that, Im refferring to the English version.
http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm
best example I could find is Thomas Beauchamp- 1369 Warwick.
Please let me know if im still being to vague.
Daco