I want to be a French knight in 1380

[Bayard]

Mad Matt's site is one of my sources for information on armor for my late 14th century persona and his information is backed up on other sites. http://www.madmattsarmory.com/14thCentury.php

Body Armor

The coat of plates is a type of body armor comprised of overlapping plates riveted mainly to the inside of either a leather or fabric shell but sometimes also attached to the outside is the staple of 14th century body armor. This type of armor was low cost to produce and still is and was used throughout the entire century, which is something to be said considering the constant flux of armor in this century.

Chainmaille was also used throughout the century but started at nearly knee length with long sleeves and mufflers (mittens) and shortened to that similar to a modern day t-shirt. It was worn under virtually any other type of body armor and sometimes overtop.

By 1340 the breastplate came into existence in the form of a short plate defence covering the upper chest. This developed into the full breastplate we now associate with a knight in shining armor including a fauld (skirt made of overlapping horizontal bands) by 1370.

The brigandine also came into being during the 14th century by around 1370. Similar to the coat of plates a brigandine was comprised of much smaller overlapping plates with larger plates to cover the lungs and heart attached to the inside of a canvas shell usually covered in a fine material such as silk velvet.

[Bayard]

Hi Bayard,

The swordbelt is often worn under the coat or jupon.

Cheers,

Max

Ah, so I would be varied in choosing to keep the belt visible. Thanks for the info

No, you would be anachronistic at best and wrong at worst.

Again, nothing wrong with that as long as you don't think and say otherwise.

Understood. I would definitely be using this as an anachronism and have it stated that this was a preference on the part of the individual that is my persona, and not a preference for others.

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Hi Bayard,

To be honest, Mad Matt is not the end source on all 14th century armour. He's a good bloke though but when you condens information like that you're bound to lose some finesse. What he means with a brigandine is probably more of a Corrazine. Similar but different sized plates etc.. Here's an historical example; http://www.designdestinations.org/wp-co ... G_0977.jpg

Also, although the coat of plates might still be employed very late in the century it would be a low militia man's armour.

So listening to what you want to be. I would seriously consider being an 1330's men-at-arms.

Cheers,

Jan

[Bayard]

Hi Bayard,

To be honest, Mad Matt is not the end source on all 14th century armour. He's a good bloke though but when you condens information like that you're bound to lose some finesse. What he means with a brigandine is probably more of a Corrazine. Similar but different sized plates etc.. Here's an historical example; http://www.designdestinations.org/wp-co ... G_0977.jpg

Also, although the coat of plates might still be employed very late in the century it would be a low militia man's armour.

So listening to what you want to be. I would seriously consider being an 1330's men-at-arms.

Cheers,

Jan

I didn't think he was, but he's not the only source I found online. The reason I'm using a coat of plates is that 1. it exists in this time period and 2. This is my first armor project aside from making plastic armor that doesn't look very good under cloth. I'm on a very tight budget and the corrazina armour is going to be expensive, so I can't just buy some. The construction looks rather complicated, so its a big project for me to tackle with so little experience. I know that it's an anachronism, but for the time being I'm going with the CoP, keeping in mind your advice on the armour types that my persona would more likely wear.

[jarlragnar]

Excellent, Guillaume. Is that manuscript firmly dated though? I have seen references from between 1380 and 1400.

I assume you are talking to me, and the answer is nope.

I like to call it end of 14th century so that I can wear a jupon and long cotes and still be part of the mafia. Chances are excellent, looking at the non-martial clothing in some of the images, that it is more beginning 15th.

It's 1399 at the latest.

[jarlragnar]

Hi Bayard,

To be honest, Mad Matt is not the end source on all 14th century armour. He's a good bloke though but when you condens information like that you're bound to lose some finesse. What he means with a brigandine is probably more of a Corrazine. Similar but different sized plates etc.. Here's an historical example; http://www.designdestinations.org/wp-co ... G_0977.jpg

Also, although the coat of plates might still be employed very late in the century it would be a low militia man's armour.

So listening to what you want to be. I would seriously consider being an 1330's men-at-arms.

Cheers,

Jan

I didn't think he was, but he's not the only source I found online. The reason I'm using a coat of plates is that 1. it exists in this time period and 2. This is my first armor project aside from making plastic armor that doesn't look very good under cloth. I'm on a very tight budget and the corrazina armour is going to be expensive, so I can't just buy some. The construction looks rather complicated, so its a big project for me to tackle with so little experience. I know that it's an anachronism, but for the time being I'm going with the CoP, keeping in mind your advice on the armour types that my persona would more likely wear.

Even more reason to focus on the first halfof the century. If a corrazina and plate legs are out of your price range, it would stand to reason that late century garb would be as well. A nicely made Charles de Blois style pourpoint is no cheap thing.

[Tailoress]

It's 1399 at the latest.

Is that from a published or otherwise official source, or an interpretation? If the latter, I'm interested in your analysis on why you believe it can't be later than 1399.

[Tailoress]

BTW, Bayard, there's a discussion about a long-sleeved tunic-like garment that goes to just below the knees over here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=141872

It's belted, too.

[jarlragnar]

It's 1399 at the latest.

Is that from a published or otherwise official source, or an interpretation? If the latter, I'm interested in your analysis on why you believe it can't be later than 1399.

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... art=200307

Travel to accept payment for it happened in 1399...I guess it could have been a down payment.

[Bayard]

BTW, Bayard, there's a discussion about a long-sleeved tunic-like garment that goes to just below the knees over here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=141872

It's belted, too.

Thank you very much. I figured not everyone would be wearing the exact same thing and I have a preference for a garment's hem falling below the knee. I'm going with shorter sleeves, my vambraces actually being pretty nice and with higher-profile elbows.

[Bayard]

Hi Bayard,

To be honest, Mad Matt is not the end source on all 14th century armour. He's a good bloke though but when you condens information like that you're bound to lose some finesse. What he means with a brigandine is probably more of a Corrazine. Similar but different sized plates etc.. Here's an historical example; http://www.designdestinations.org/wp-co ... G_0977.jpg

Also, although the coat of plates might still be employed very late in the century it would be a low militia man's armour.

So listening to what you want to be. I would seriously consider being an 1330's men-at-arms.

Cheers,

Jan

I didn't think he was, but he's not the only source I found online. The reason I'm using a coat of plates is that 1. it exists in this time period and 2. This is my first armor project aside from making plastic armor that doesn't look very good under cloth. I'm on a very tight budget and the corrazina armour is going to be expensive, so I can't just buy some. The construction looks rather complicated, so its a big project for me to tackle with so little experience. I know that it's an anachronism, but for the time being I'm going with the CoP, keeping in mind your advice on the armour types that my persona would more likely wear.

Even more reason to focus on the first halfof the century. If a corrazina and plate legs are out of your price range, it would stand to reason that late century garb would be as well. A nicely made Charles de Blois style pourpoint is no cheap thing.

I plan to eventually upgrade from my current covered plastic legs to steel with leather on the thighs holding the rest of it up but right now I need to get my low-profile gambeson under armor and get my new heater shield put together. I'll likely be wearing sabatons over my boots to go with the greaves too if they were used before the 15th century..

[Tailoress]

It's 1399 at the latest.

Is that from a published or otherwise official source, or an interpretation? If the latter, I'm interested in your analysis on why you believe it can't be later than 1399.

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... art=200307

Travel to accept payment for it happened in 1399...I guess it could have been a down payment.

Thank you for the information. That is at least helpful in keeping it inside the 14thc. I'd love to know if the Earl of Rutland (first known owner) was in fact the first owner, or if he acquired it from the bookseller second-hand. Here's what the Getty Museum has to say about the artist:

The Virgil Master worked at the court of Jean, duc de Berry from the 1390s to the 1410s, and Jean owned at least six of the manuscripts the artist illuminated. Jean de Berry's treasurer, Jacques Courau, also commissioned several books from the Virgil Master including copies of Bucolics and Aeneid, by the poet Virgil, after whom the artist is named. The Virgil Master collaborated with some of the other leading illuminators of the time, including the workshops of the Boucicaut Master and the Egerton Master. The Virgil Master painted highly developed narratives and often incorporated contemporary medieval details of architecture and dress into his compositions.

[Buster]

Sabatons were being used during the 1320's, and probably earlier.

[Effingham]

Check out the gear and outfit of the right-most figure in the Detail of a miniature of the people of Ghent killing the bailiff of the Count of Flanders.

Click that puppy and behold an interesting choice of field gear. (BTW: What do we think: fringe, or box-pleats on the arms?)

[jarlragnar]

I've always loved those. I'm more inclined to think they're pleats, but that only because of how they're drawn. Perhaps Tailoress can chime in.

[Tailoress]

I'd say definitely not box pleats (the wavy factor makes that unlikely). I think it's intended to portray fringe of some kind.

[Tailoress]

I'd like to refocus this thread to its original intent.

With that in mind, I'm reposting what I posted in Historical over here, since it directly bears on the topic. Anyone who wants to portray a French knight around the 1380s will probably benefit from the work I'm doing on the pourpoint attributed to Charles VI (the red one, not the CdB, which has grande assiette sleeves... people get them confused sometimes).

Begin post:
For those in the UK or otherwise planning to travel to Leeds for this year's medieval conference (July 9-12th), I wanted to announce that I'll be presenting new data and analysis on the pourpoint attributed to Charles VI of France on Wednesday July 11th, in session 1103, for DISTAFF.

Slightly more detail can be seen here.

If you love the clothing of later fourteenth century France and have unanswered questions about this garment in particular, this should be a priority to attend. I spent half a day examining and measuring this garment in detail. I waited a long time to get these answers and it will be my pleasure to share my findings. I will also be unveiling my reconstruction of the garment at that time.

The paper itself is in review with a respected journal and, with luck, will be seen in print before I die. Until then, however, I can't reveal details outside of my paper session at Leeds.

(Travel and research was made possible by the Janet Arnold Award, which is administered by the Society of Antiquaries of London. It provides funds for independent scholars who wish to study extant historical clothing in person.)


-Tasha

[Tailoress]

The link to the congress in Leeds isn't working right now... not sure why. Just tried navigating to it from within the home page and it's not working that way either. Just FYI.

[MJBlazek]

Check out the gear and outfit of the right-most figure in the Detail of a miniature of the people of Ghent killing the bailiff of the Count of Flanders.

Click that puppy and behold an interesting choice of field gear. (BTW: What do we think: fringe, or box-pleats on the arms?)

What is the date on this miniature? I am currently wearing something very similar.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Check out the gear and outfit of the right-most figure in the Detail of a miniature of the people of Ghent killing the bailiff of the Count of Flanders.

Click that puppy and behold an interesting choice of field gear. (BTW: What do we think: fringe, or box-pleats on the arms?)

What is the date on this miniature? I am currently wearing something very similar.

That manuscript is often dated as "no earlier than 1380", and is often times posited to be first decade of the 15th century.

[MJBlazek]

Perfect. Thank you.

I am currently aiming for 1400-1415... give or take.

[Tailoress]

I never did update this thread about my paper on the red silk pourpoint attributed to Charles VI of France. It'll be published in Waffen- und Kostuemkunde next year, around July, I believe. I'll post details on how to order a copy when it becomes available.

You know how the stuff you see on the fields just doesn't tend to look right? That's because most people are not even in the right ball park on their construction process (me included, until now). The paper provides the information you will need to faithfully recreate a padded, quilted, long-sleeve pourpoint to be worn over a full harness. It will take a lot of work, but the end result is gratifying.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Hi Tasha-

Again, the jupon is stunning.

You mention that we will be able to recreate this type of garment with your article and I am looking forward to that. I think that a lot of the recreations we see (in the SCA) are under-padded or even unpadded due to heat retention concerns during SCA combat. Do you have any suggestions how one might recreate the look without the need for making the equivalent of a really heavy winter coat?

[Tailoress]

Hi Tasha-

Again, the jupon is stunning.

You mention that we will be able to recreate this type of garment with your article and I am looking forward to that. I think that a lot of the recreations we see (in the SCA) are under-padded or even unpadded due to heat retention concerns during SCA combat. Do you have any suggestions how one might recreate the look without the need for making the equivalent of a really heavy winter coat?

Thanks, Gregoire!

I do have some ideas, which I'd be happy to discuss once the paper is out there. I hate making folks wait, but that's the price of doing things through traditional channels (publication) as opposed to casual talk online.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Understood. I'll wait.

[RandallMoffett]

It does indeed look great. Lovely photo! Do let us know when the paper is out.

RPM

[Thomas MacFinn]

I know I am stating the obvious for most of the people on this thread, but 1300 to 1400 was a time of huge transitions in fashion and in armor. Every twenty years (or less) something changed.

If you want a similar example, look at fashions now vs fashions in 1912. Yes, women then and now both wore dresses; but imagine the looks a lady would get if she walked down the street now in a Victorian ankle length dress with a whalebone corset and bustle under it. Then imagine what she would look like if she tried to wear a corset and bustle under a modern knee-length pencil skirt.

Most people in the SCA are more forgiving of weirdness than the average person on the street, but you can tell when somebody is trying to stick to a single small time period instead of a hundred year span; even if it isn't a time period you know well. His or her kit just looks "right".

[Gryffinclaw]

Excellent work on the garment Tailoress

Regards

[Tailoress]

Thank you, Troy.

I just noticed my photo is no longer showing up, and that's because when I redid my website last November, I blew away all my public photo directories. I still haven't figure out how I can use my site to do hot linking to stuff I want to show people now that it's on Wordpress. I could ask my web developer, but I'm afraid she'll charge me.

[Tailoress]

Also, while I'm here, I might as well mention that I'll be presenting a paper at Kalamazoo next week called "Martial Beauty: Padding and Quilting One's Way to a Masculine Ideal in Fourteenth Century France" as part of the DISTAFF sessions.

Some threads here on the Archive have greatly assisted me in the writing of the paper. I'll be thanking some folks out loud before I even begin my presentation.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Will it be available afterwards on your website? I'm very interested.

[RandallMoffett]

Wish I could be there Tasha! I like the title... Martial Beauty.... them pretty guys!

RPM

[Tailoress]

Not sure what I'll do with it afterwards. It's possible it could be eligible for publication as part of the Medieval Clothing and Textiles journal edited by DISTAFF and published by Boydell & Brewer, but I'm not sure.

BTW, both Randall and Mike (Galfrid) will be thanked as part of this presentation because you've both supplied sources I've ended up using. Mart (Ernst), too. And Sean Manning. That thread of his about the upper body came at the perfect time.

What I'm doing is synthesizing multiple sources to come up with a birds-eye view of how the tailoring technique of padding and quilting presented itself throughout the 14thc in France and why the changes occurred. I may have some "new" thoughts in there, but a lot of individual understandings used to make larger points are things that we in this small community of 14thc armour enthusiasts already know to some degree or another.

I just had not found a cohesive narrative on this topic anywhere yet, so I figured I should try writing it myself. We'll see how it goes!

[Bertus Brokamp]

Bertus hits the imaginary 'Like!' button.

[RandallMoffett]

"I just had not found a cohesive narrative on this topic anywhere yet, so I figured I should try writing it myself. We'll see how it goes!"

Best reason to do a major undertaking like this! Very excited to see it all and what you have arrived at and all the evidence you have compiled. If they do publish it let us know!

RPM