IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

Ceawlin Alreding · Post by **Ceawlin Alreding** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:10 pm

I wanna be a Combat of the Thirty combatant.
The question keeps coming up on the Med Weap and Com thread, and I thought a nice "I wanna" thread would be a nice place to send everyone to.
Plus, Murdock seemed to think it was a good idea.
Also, I'm an Anglo Saxon and I'm hopeless with 1351.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:07 am

Ok to get this going i'll post old 30 pics and dead guys from around the date of the actual deed

Well these pics are from the Vannes but still good rigs for the SCA 30
Master Galleron

Yngvar on the left with Galleron

Edward Geoffery and Galleron all are a little late for 1351 but good kits

These are some of the best rigs out there.

Espically Geoffery and Galleron,

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:15 am

More
My rig for the first one

COTT 2

COTT4

Full English arms, garter stuff.....
Yeah i went there.

Yeahhhh England!!! Boo France

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:26 am

I hope the captains ban SCA butt banners for the deed in future.

Look like this-

But not JUST like that cause that is me.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:31 am

Another one I am using for reference.

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:34 am

Leo Medii wrote:I hope the captains ban SCA butt banners for the deed in future.

Care to enlighten the ignorant on "butt banners"?

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:44 am

butt banners

They are little squares of cloth with stuff on them with a belt loop at the top. Often denoting group or such.

I've seen a lot of them in the pics.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:55 am

I have been working on some essays on clothing and armor from that era based on manuscripts. There is more coming later:

http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/CrecyKnights.htm
http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/Clothing1340_50.htm

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:01 am

Rod Walker · Post by **Rod Walker** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:19 am

Whilst there are some nice kits there, the majority of them look too late for 1351.

Andrew McKinnon has a kit in progress here http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=85129 that would be more in keeping with the period.

I am working on a Romance of Alexander harness at the moment and will post pics when it is done,,,,,,,,,, which has to be soon as I need it to joust in for the 20 September.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:48 pm

Basically by 1310-1320 every bit of solid plate armour is seen but cuisses. If anyone can find evidence of plate cuisses pre 1350 please let me know. Apart from that splinted limb armour is fairly common, splinted cuisses or just padded cuisses likely being worn in place of solid one piece plate ones.

By 1340-1350 you find solid breastplates around but limited to the higher/highest tier of society. Coat of Plates are being used by anyone, 1336 they become required by Edward III for all archers serving.

Mail would almost always be used though by 1330s it no longer is required by Edward III in his list of equipment for men at arms.

As Rod pointed out much of the armour is later than 1350s.

Your best bet is effigies really. Someone posted this and it does have soem great pictures of use to you.

http://flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/co ... 248138781/

Typically the problem to me is people using armour of several decades later for mid 14th.

Good luck!

RPM

Ceawlin Alreding · Post by **Ceawlin Alreding** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:25 pm

Okay, here's what I got so far:
Helm, great, one, check. It's not the nicest in the world, and somewhat wide for me, but it works. I think. Padding will tell.
Elbows, knees, "soup can" style, two each, check. Mad Matt's stuff. Nice lines, I think.
I have two choices with these. I can attach the knees to a pair of padded cuisses I have (except they're quite light and I don't fancy Fred hammering me in the thigh with, well, that damn rubber hammer on a stick of his) OR I can bang out a pair of leather and splint cuisses, making sure I do the fancy little daggy bits under the knee cop. I also have a pair of splint greaves that may get replaced with some House of the Wolf DYI kit, cause I think they have a better line.
I'm wearing "hidden safety equipement "for a local Pas in two weeks, and hoping to sneak my Knight's gambison to wear over. I KNOW that's not the WAY of things, I can eventually bang out a COP.
I'm thinking of just tying the elbows on (can't point some one else's garment, when I get one of my own I will) and using a pair of old vams hidden under the sleeves of the gamby. (See above, hammer, powered by Fred). Upgrade to what? HotW DYI vams? I'm not much of a lad for lots and lots of plate. It's a cost issue for a second kit, not anything else. Just not doing full arm cannons. No matter how much his Excellency Concordia, pouts.
I got a mail coif I'm gonna use to hide my gorget, which would probably be fine IF I hadn't covered it with leather so it wouldn't make my Saxon kit look silly....
I've got HE booties, hose and braies to go under. Gwen, as previously chronicled, rocketh mightily.
I will have to break with 20+ years of habit, and invest in Metal Gaunts that I will trust my hands in. Yeah, I know, I don't trust metal gaunts. I'm just kinda weird that way.
So that's it for now. I'll post pics of my fledgling effort when I get it together. Advice on affordable improvments will be welcomed.
Thanks, gang
Ceawlin, Fledgling COT Ethusiast

oooh, gotta getta rondel dagger and sheath before the big dance!

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:41 pm

Eadric is spot on. (Facing the camera with the dagger hanging loose on its chain.)

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:20 pm

I'd 2nd that on Eadric

my rig is 20-30 years to late.

But guys in just 5 years we've gone from "mostly 14th century" to

"lets get within 10 years of the date"

with some people starting to try and do specific effigies.

Nigel, Duke of Arrochar · Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:42 pm

Folks,

While I do appreciate all of the people that are heading towards the 1351 date of the CotT, please remember that we have never intended for this to emulate the original CotT. It was merley a stepping stone from which we can build something more than the average.

If things work out for me this year, I intend on working towards getting my kit closer to the actual date as well. My kit is based on a 3rd qtr of the 14th c effigy and it cost a fair bit to get to this point so it takes a bit to redirect to an almost completely new kit for this deed.

Please remember that as of this post, Johannes and I have not discussed whether or not we will try and limit the CotT to a tighter year range. For gosh sakes, we have yet to have a 30-v-30 in the CotT yet. The kits have dramatically improved and can still get better. We told a few people that they would need to make improvements to their kit if they wanted to attend next year even.

The CotT is a work in progress and hopefully now that we have locked down the position of Captains for the next 2 years we can build momentum and build this into something that is FRIGGIN' AWESOME! Well, more friggin' awesome than it already is at least.

Respectfully,

Sir Nigel MacFarlane
Captain of the French for the CotT #'s 2, 4,5 and 6 (and we've yet to get to #'s 5 & 6)

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:07 pm

Chartres bascinet

Tower helmet

Fosdinovo, IIRC it's an Italian effigy from the 1350's

Kerdeston

Detail of Sir John Foxley 1378

John Lyons, St Marys Warkworth

gerhard_von_julich_late-14thC

Sir Humphrey Littlebury c.1365, Holbeach, England.

Gunter Von Schwartzburg

John de Cobham, Cobham Church.

feel free to look through
http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/Murdoch_McArthur/

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:14 pm

COTT3

Me and Yngvar being French.....it was a nice surcoat

Churburg 14

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:48 am

Please remember that as of this post, Johannes and I have not discussed whether or not we will try and limit the CotT to a tighter year range. For gosh sakes, we have yet to have a 30-v-30 in the CotT yet. The kits have dramatically improved and can still get better. We told a few people that they would need to make improvements to their kit if they wanted to attend next year even.

The original COTT was not limited to the specific date, just proper 14th C armors. It was the people INVOLVED in this deed who were so enamored by it that decided unto themselves to change their harness to more accurately represent the contest. Nothing say's or said you have to be exact to that battle, but some people think it is something to strive for and have done it on their own.
Most 14th C mafia folks are 1380-1405. So that is who was involved in it initially, so that is what you see. Some are so serious that they want to look like they were AT the COTT.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:11 am

What LEo said

Thats why i'm posting both old 30 pics and stuff thats original thats close to the real deed's date.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:22 am

I can't wait till that day my freind.

I have pledged myself to the side of the French so as to assure both sides have a totally armored tank of doom!

I shall seek you on the field to claim your ransom, and to repay you my brother for your taking of my person and ransom the last time we met!

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:37 pm

I started a new page on my website on future projects and it has information on my new Romance of Alexander kit which is just a bit before the thirty: http://www.historiclife.com/HistoricalC ... ojects.htm

The clothing is made; here is the plan for the armor:

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:57 pm

Is this Clang greathelm an acceptable version?

http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/helm%20 ... %2001.html

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:03 pm

The Schweizerisches Landesmuseum in Zurich has one with that same kind of rounded top, dated to the second quarter of the 1400s.

There are others in German museums dated to ~1350.

That one's probably modeled after the Pembridge helm, dated to 1370.

Not that I've been using this thread as an excuse to look at 14th century armor or anything...

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:50 pm

Is this Clang greathelm an acceptable version?

As pictured, I would not allow it.

If all the holes were the same size and uniform, yes, I'd allow it.

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:29 pm

audax wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:
Is this Clang greathelm an acceptable version?
As pictured, I would not allow it.

If all the holes were the same size and uniform, yes, I'd allow it.
Thank you, good to know.

I'm looking at Mad Matts bascinets and klappvisors. That may be more the direction I'll go.

They are well built and very sturdy.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:00 pm

This clang helm looks good
http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20 ... %2001.html

I'm kicking around making a Van Prank helm in spring and wearing it over a cervellier.

I want THIS
http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/helm%20 ... %2001.html
as a klapvisor

Tobar · Post by **Tobar** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:42 am

This should probably go in Design and Construction but the breast plate in Murdock's post with the two men in red/maroon breastplates are the breastplates split at the spine and sternum or are they in 4 pieces. I love this style of breastplate and have not seen it a whole lot any info or pics would be greatly appreciated.

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:47 pm

Adrielle wrote:Sir Humphrey Littlebury c.1365, Holbeach, England.

Thank you your excellency. I'm quite fond of the crest on his great helm and the interesting sabatons he wears.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:07 pm

Bleddyn De Caldicot wrote:
Adrielle wrote:Sir Humphrey Littlebury c.1365, Holbeach, England.
Thank you your excellency. I'm quite fond of the crest on his great helm and the interesting sabatons he wears.

sabatons are interesting.....

Anyone have opinions on exactly how they are made?

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:05 am

Now surcoats, were they still in fashion at the 1350 timeframe or had they become an anachronism? If indeed they were still in fasion what style were they?

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:12 pm

Effingham wrote:Lucian, have you not seen the huge website of effigies?

Indeed I have, Eff, but I have a hard time discerning if something like this below a surcoat or maybe more of a jupon. I ask because I honestly don't know.

Sigurd Fjalarson · Post by **Sigurd Fjalarson** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:14 pm

Ok, forgive my ignorance, but whats the difference between a surcote and jupon? Length? Style? Just curious.

And this post is just dripping with awesome, Murdock you are an inspiration.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:34 am

Often in the art and effigies from 1330s-1350s you see the arming cote under everything, the maille, the CoP, then the jupon/surcote. Quite often in the Romance of Alexander you see a longer back than front, some look pleated but more likely the garments has gores below the waist to make it full which is in line with fashion at the time (tight on top full below the hips). Many are drawn with side lacing too; check out the knight on the left in the center:

white mountain armoury · Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:32 am

Lucian Ro wrote:Now surcoats, were they still in fashion at the 1350 timeframe or had they become an anachronism? If indeed they were still in fasion what style were they?

At this point in time Heraldic cote are still in vouge and come in a variety of style.
You will see long in front and back, long in back short in front, and short all the way around.
Some are crazy short in the front, you can see one here
http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/mag ... urcoat.php

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:36 am

WOW!!!!!!! Those crespinettes are awesome!
http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/mag ... nettes.php

Sorry for the derail, I had to check out the whole site!

IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

date specific...