IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

[Vitus von Atzinger]

My 1351 kit.

[Nigel, Duke of Arrochar]

Here is the kit I wore in the CotT at Pennsic 41.

Cheers,

Earl Nigel MacFarlane KSCA

[Larmer]

Thanks for this great material folks. I too want a 1351 kit and I have a lot of work to do. It will take a while.

[Murdock]

Ok

I want a new rig

[twoswords]

Esteemed 14th century mafia, I am again in need of advice. I am looking for a good source of leather (black) in order to make the armor for arms and legs. I am planning to make one set where metal strips are placed on the inside, and one set where the metal strips are alternating inside/outside. Now to my questions:

1. Where is a good U.S. source for the leather?
2. I am used to the metric system, I have no idea about the ounces thickness part. You all know what thickness is needed for legs and arms like these. Please advice me as to what I am looking for.
3. Any other advice that those of you who have already built similar rigs care to share?

EDIT: I found the answer to all my questions. Seems a leather-worker is living 45 minutes away from me and is about to place an order.

[Overkillphil]

I'm definitely going to build a CotT/DoA kit, but my question is finger gauntlets. Which armory are you fellows getting yours from? My knight has Darkheart, which look nice and I really like the titanium Wisby gauntlets Somedudeinutah is making, but is there anyone else making good, enclosed tip gauntlets? Thanks

[twoswords]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148179&p=2234433#p2234433

Looking for constructive criticism of the beginnings of my kit.

[Joshua S]

Hi Everyone!

I have learned a great deal from this thread. I have a CoT inspired kit with a model based on the Harness of Prince Edward of Woodstock (The Black Prince).

Here is a quick list of the Harness components:

Black Prince Great Helm or Pembridge Great Helm
Mail Aventail
Coat of Plates or Brigandine (Is the Corazina appropriate as well?)
Steel Spaulders
Steel Arm Harness
Steel Hourglass Gauntlets
Steel Leg Harness
Schynbalds or Closed Greaves?
Sabatons

Anything else that I am missing? I have the Mail Haubergon in mind. I am listing out the armor parts for much period accuracy as possible.

Help is appreciated.

[RandallMoffett]

Pair of plates is the term they would have used in 1351 or simple plates in England.

Looks ok. My guess is by 1351 more likely to have greaves but you still at times see shynbaulds.

RPM

[Joshua S]

Pair of plates is the term they would have used in 1351 or simple plates in England.

Looks ok. My guess is by 1351 more likely to have greaves but you still at times see shynbaulds.

Ok, thank you.

So now it seems that I have made a great choice in pieces, so now the amended list looks like this.

Black Prince Great Helm or Pembridge Great Helm (leaning towards the Black Prince Helm for an awesome look)
Mail Aventail
Coat of Plates or Brigandine (Is a Corazina appropriate?)
Steel Spaulders
Steel Arm Harness
Steel Hourglass Gauntlets
Steel Leg Harness
Schynbalds
Sabatons

[RandallMoffett]

"Coat of Plates or Brigandine (Is a Corazina appropriate?)"

Not really but you can find pretty developed plates like the Kussnacht and Hirschstein Castle ones that increasingly fit looks.

RPM

[Ernst]

As noted on the "English Gentleman at Arms, 1340" thread:

Keep in mind the Pembridge itself is a later version of great helm so you might want to look about for some earlier ones.

RPM

The Pembridge is 1370s. Certainly sugarloafs are still in use in 1351 too. What would be the most appropriate 5-piece helm for the 1340s and 1350s? Certainly a mail coif would not be used with a bascinet, and an aventail on another type of helm seems rare.

The mail haubergeon may not be required, but could be replaced with sleeves and pair of paunces mail skirting.

[RandallMoffett]

Ernst,

Sure I did not say 'sugarloafs' were not in use. Could have been.

Not sure of one would use a under bascinet and mail coif still in unison under a helm in 1350. I suspect it was indeed done but I also think the other way was done as well. Think of the Kussnacht great helm or the one in Glasgow or the Prankh one.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=85680&start=105

Look at 1350 art and you can sort of see what I am saying. The Black Prince and Pembridge are really just not right for the mid 1350s to me. I think they are much more a last part of the 3rd quarter helm. Think state of the art helm for the time. Just like the Prankh and others in their day. They just do not look quite the same as most of them. That said it could have been difference in use. I have seen several helms I am sure a smaller bascinet or close skull cap would not fit inside unless there was not any padding.

"The mail haubergeon may not be required, but could be replaced with sleeves and pair of paunces mail skirting."

For living history I'd not go this way. Just so little evidence for the use of these bits of mail compared to a hauberk for the knightly class and up. Honestly I wish I had more evidence for this as it'd shave likely 15lbs off my kit.

RPM

[Joshua S]

Not really but you can find pretty developed plates like the Kussnacht and Hirschstein Castle ones that increasingly fit looks.

Ok, will stick to the Coat of Plates.

The Pembridge is 1370s. Certainly sugarloafs are still in use in 1351 too. What would be the most appropriate 5-piece helm for the 1340s and 1350s? Certainly a mail coif would not be used with a bascinet, and an aventail on another type of helm seems rare.

The mail haubergeon may not be required, but could be replaced with sleeves and pair of paunces mail skirting.

Ok, so either Great Helms or a Sugarloaf, glad I can forego the haubergeon for mail skirting or sleeves.

I intend to use a mail aventail with no attachment to the great helm but rather worn for neck protection.

Look at 1350 art and you can sort of see what I am saying. The Black Prince and Pembridge are really just not right for the mid 1350s to me. I think they are much more a last part of the 3rd quarter helm. Think state of the art helm for the time. Just like the Prankh and others in their day. They just do not look quite the same as most of them. That said it could have been difference in use. I have seen several helms I am sure a smaller bascinet or close skull cap would not fit inside unless there was not any padding.

Ok, I see now, now my question is this: what type of Great Helm is best for 1350's?

[Joshua S]

So now the revised list is this:

Sugarloaf or Great Helm
Mail Aventail
Coat of Plates
Spaulders
Plate Arms
Plate Hourglass Gauntlets
Plate Legs
Steel Schynbalds
Steel Sabatons

[Ernst]

I intend to use a mail aventail with no attachment to the great helm but rather worn for neck protection.

This is known as a "standard" or "pisane", "pizane", etc. The Kornburg helm is dated to mid-century, though the paint is not original, and the mail was likely added after it's working life.
http://books.google.com/books?id=OD8g4E ... lm&f=false

[RandallMoffett]

Joshua,

I'd look at the link I posted at the c. 1350s type great helms and do a search on the helms I listed. That is about where I'd start on that. The helmet Ernst just posted works well.

I still am not decided on the use of a hauberk. I think the evidence is still clear that if they were used it was not as common as a full hauberk under it all. And the evidence I have seen still has not convinced me 100%.

RPM

[tim_Belcher]

i am contemplating adding to my current kit to make it acceptable for the cott. i have a decent viking rig now. if i acquire a coat of plates and a barrel helm. what would be appropriate arm and legs armor to go with that so it is somewhat accurate and not a time travellers knightmare

[PatternWeld]

Since no one else has ponied up.... Tim, what culture? German? English? French? what style is your barrel helm and what style is your CoP? Are you wearing maille? Hauberk or Haubergeon? Maille Chausses? Sabbatons? What kind of gauntlets are you going to wear? Have you researched effigies?

[tim_Belcher]

i don't have a barrel or cop yet, i have mail, thigh length, half sleeve. i have full steel 3/4th legs(to just below the knee). i am not sold on a barrel just contemplating the cheapest way to get into the 30

[tim_Belcher]

with a fairly generic coat of plates, splinted greaves, plate upper legs, simple cops and internally splinted bracers would this helm work

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=164617
The Armour Archive • View topic - for sale, mild steel "raven" sugarloaf

[MJBlazek]

If it were me running the Deed, no I would not accept a helmet with a stylized raven on the face of it. That blatently says "fantasy" to me.
A sugarloaf without a raven on it, perhaps a blackened cross or brass one, yes. That would be acceptable.

[tim_Belcher]

14th century mafia guys on fb generally say its good, not sure what direction to go, so far only thing on the face of a helm i have found is a cross

[Talbot]

If you are interested in knowing what the combatants at the Combat of the Thirty wore check out this book. http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/co ... hirty.aspx

I wrote a chapter on the armour worn at the Combat. You may find it helpful.

[Talbot]

Here is an image of one page from the article I wrote.

[MJBlazek]

14th century mafia guys on fb generally say its good, not sure what direction to go, so far only thing on the face of a helm i have found is a cross

Thats about right yes.
Or nothing at all.
I would really baulk at allowing the raven that's on the helm you linked to if I were running a deed such as the CotT. Which generally calls for pretty strict authenticity rules.

Call me a hardass but the raven on it really says "fantasy" to me.

[MJBlazek]

A nice pictoral on greathelms
http://www.liebaart.org/helm/

[Talbot]

Here is an image of one page from the article I wrote.

[RandallMoffett]

Where is this article at Doug?

[bigfredb]

Where is this article at Doug?

It appears that it is in the Combat of the 30 book

[RandallMoffett]

What is this book? Not seen it before.

[Nigel, Duke of Arrochar]

The book is "The Combat of the Thirty" written by Steven Muhlberger, AKA Duke Finnvarr DeTahhe.

It is available through Freelance Academy Press which IIRC is owned/operated by Greg Mele (sp?).

The link for this book follows:

http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/co ... hirty.aspx

This is the same book that Doug is speaking about unless I am mistaken. If I am mistaken Doug can correct me.

Nigel

Prince of Ealdormere

[LvL80Viking]

COTT3

It took me a moment to realize I was looking at 3 people and not one guy with a broken leg.

[Adzwoodlander]

Why the mail over the top of the shoulders and breastplate? It seems like you would have a hammer and anvil effect when struck there that would obliterate the chain.

[MJBlazek]

You are assuming that the armor has no give or flex to it.
Aslo there is historical evidence of the avential having a padded liner as well. That would mitigate any hammer/anvil effect.