IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

[white mountain armoury]

WOW!!!!!!! Those crespinettes are awesome!

Sorry for the derail, I had to check out the whole site!

They took some time to make, instead of weaving strips I cut out squares. What was I thinking

[white mountain armoury]

Eadric is spot on.

Eadrics kit was fun to make, we spent many an hour making it, and his lady logged alot of hours stitching.
Most of the steel other than the helm is 1050 and is crazy strong.
The initial plates in the cop were something I could fold in half using just the finger strength of one hand (strong hands) once hardened and tempered it took everything I had to fold a plate with both hands.
I think we nailed the hardening process for sure.
He has mail chausses which I thought he would wear, but the greaves are less fussy to deal with.
We built both out kits to be correct for the "30"
Sadly mine stayed in the armour bag as my health denied me Pennsic.

Ceawlin, need any help feel free to ask, it would be nice to have you at the 30 and other deeds of this nature and period.
While getting the kits closer to the date is not paramount its so cool to see people taking it to that level.
I think living history quality kits minus the rattan is a possibility.
I applaud everyone efforts.

[Friedrich Parcifal]

Somehow I missed this thread until tonight, but thanks for the nice words about the kit.

Is Eadric wearing a sugarloaf? I can't see if there is a hinge in the picture.
What years would a sugarloaf be valid for?

Adam

It is a bascinet with visor, circa Crecy era.

Here is a close up:



I am still working some of the kinks out of the kit and still have some improvements to make, but so far I am very happy with the look.

As Adam mentioned, most of the kit is now 1050, and by next year I hope all the steel will be. Its based on the Strassbourg altar pieces posted in another thread recently and some other effigies and art from the same era like the already mentioned Romance of Alexander. I wanted to do a kit that I could document to as narrow a place and time as I could.

After the 30 last year Adam and I talked about aiming our kits right at the late 1340's early 1350s so we could be dead on for the CoTT era. It was a lot of work over the winter, but worth it when I took the field in it.

I want to make as few concessions to the 'sport' or safety as I can. The only changes I make for my sport kit these days is to wear my kettle hat in melee instead of the bascinet, and I haven't tried the guard chains outside of the 30.

I'll dig up a pic of my sport kit too, though I think I remember seeing a pic of it in another recent thread too. I've also promised Adam I would take pics of the pieces of the kit for reference as well.

Eadric

[RandallMoffett]

Eadric,

Thats a nice helmet! I love bascinets from the 1st half of the 14th. They have such a nice looks. The more I look around its funny the variation of bascinets and their visors that exist.

Look forward to seeing your full harness when you're done.

RPM

[RenJunkie]

As an SCA cheat for the style of bascinet/visor combo Eadric's using, could you just hang maille off of a visored sugarloaf? Under the visor, I mean.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Murdock]

William De Adelburg

[Angusm0628]

So, would kettle helmets be out for COTT?

Kettle helms would be correct for the period.

[Ceawlin Alreding]

Okay, here goes...
The Silverwing Pas was the celebration of (Master, Baron, et al) Steffan ap Kennydd's 60th Birthday. The Pas featured the team of Age (called "Treachery" tongue en couchant) vs the assembled might of Youth ("Zeal"). Many hard bows were exchanged and much goodly comradie was had, and if someone else does a nicer job of chronicling it, I will see if I may forward their words to you, as my own Saxon story telling is not meet for this task.
I will tell you all, that at the end of the day, when Zeal was waning, and Age was, well, puffing a bit, and the Youth Combatants had also a turn at the list, and had put on a goodly show, did Steffan himself, as the personification of Age, return to the Lists, after a 14 year absence, and challanged all comers to three hard blows at the barrier.
It was an awe-inspiring sight, and I count myself lucky to have been a participant.
Photos of this wonderful day may be seen at : http://picasaweb.google.com/agif7163/TavernEvent#

And here, for you to witness, my first poor attempts at a Pas kit.

[David S]

So, I am totally inspired by this thread and want to bring my boffer kit up to this standard (and later, make it into a second kit for Rattan fighting, after the corazzina/plate limbs c. 1370 kit I am working on) and I was hoping to get a few pointers.

Here is my kit at present:

Left Side

Right Side

Right Side again

(Please disregard the shield I am holding in the first and third photos, someone was borrowing my nice-looking heater with guige. Also the butt banners/belt flags, they're a fighting company thing that I would rather do without. Also everyone else's garb and gear.)

Basically, I'm wearing braies, chausses, linen shirt, wool tunic (no arming coat, it needs to be repaired but I have one in linen), flat-ring riveted haubergeon, cuirboulli schynbalds over Revival ankle boots, cuirboulli 'soup can' knees (by HotW), cuirboulli rondel elbows and hinged vambrace, and leather canvas-covered ailettes. I have a bascinet helm (but no aventail) that I am not wearing in these shots. What I want to know is, what else do I need to do in addition to these:

-re-tailor surcoat more like the short front/long back examples in the effigies and Romance of Alexander.

-re-size ailettes, they're too big (though they are the dimensions recommended on the Arador article...go figure)

-add cuisses

-get aventail for open-face bascinet

-make dagged coat-of-plates

-get metal joint armor for rattan fighting (my boffer org. doesn't allow them, at least not yet...)

-make gauntlets

What kind of cuisses would be appropriate, splinted or gamboised? (none of the images from the Romance shows them, as far as I can tell) Am I correct in assuming that Wisby-style gauntlets are the right kind? Should I replace my vambraces with plate or splinted ones?

Basically, the sketch that JamesB posted is exactly how I want to make my kit, so I guess I'll just stay one step behind him as he puts it together.

[Angusm0628]

Loose the epaulettes on the surcoat and get spaulders that point to your gambeson thru the mail.
I found and bookmarked an effigy (which I can't find right now) showing the long sleeveless surcoat you're wearing so that's not a big issue. When I track it down I'll post it here.

Also, what style of breastplate are you planning to use ??

[David S]

So you think no ailettes, then? Well, they do tend to get in the way, so I suppose that would be an advantage.

For a breastplate, I was planning to wear a CoP with a dagged lower hem, which would be matched by dagged fringes hanging from the poleyns and spaudlers.

[audax]

So you think no ailettes, then? Well, they do tend to get in the way, so I suppose that would be an advantage.

For a breastplate, I was planning to wear a CoP with a dagged lower hem, which would be matched by dagged fringes hanging from the poleyns and spaudlers.

Aillettes were for heraldic display not protection and were pretty well phased out by CotT period.

I don't know of any example of dags from spaulders.

[David S]

The Arador Armor Library has this page on the matter of the kind of spaulders I was thinking of. It may, however, show armor "all' antica," in which case it's probably not the most legit source of documentation. Although, several people in, I think, one of the various "show us your kit" threads have similar dealies hanging from their spaulders.

As for the ailettes, unless I am mistaken, this image shows them:



This is the Romance of Alexander, about 10 years before the time period this thread is about. But as I said, having no ailettes is not, like, a problem or anything.

[audax]

The Arador Armor Library has this page on the matter of the kind of spaulders I was thinking of. It may, however, show armor "all' antica," in which case it's probably not the most legit source of documentation. Although, several people in, I think, one of the various "show us your kit" threads have similar dealies hanging from their spaulders.

As for the ailettes, unless I am mistaken, this image shows them:



This is the Romance of Alexander, about 10 years before the time period this thread is about. But as I said, having no ailettes is not, like, a problem or anything.

Did you look at any of the other pictures? Like the typically European ones? Or did you want to try to enter the CotT in a somehwat garbled version Byzantine/Middle Eastern armour?

By the time of the CotT, ailettes were pretty well phased out. That doesn't mean they weren't depicted in romances that described legendary or mythological events. As they were for heraldic display and by the CotT other forms of display had become more in vogue, silly little pieces of parchment were kind of in the way.

If you want to wear ailettes, you could do an earlier 14th impression.

[David S]

Oh, that makes sense, yes. I am still not clear (nor, I suspect, are most people) on the extent to which artwork, especially that not depicting contemporary events, accurately portrays the period it is attempting to depict, versus the period in which it was produced.

As a tangent: does anyone have a sense of when the 'contemporary' style of Biblical/ancient art was phased out in favor of the 'ancient' style? I sort of like the idea of depicting Biblical events with contemporary clothing, since it emphasizes the eternal nature of the message.

But, anyway, no ailettes is not a problem, those cool one-piece rondel spaulders that everyone seems to be wearing are also really neat. Although, and JamesB's sketch made me wonder, is it period-appropriate not to wear spaulders at all? I do rather like the look of maille shoulders, and, moreover, wearing a low-profile hard plastic (or metal) protection underneath the maille might make for greater mobility; considering that I'm rather small, by modern/Society heavy combat standards (5'8" 170lb) I feel that, even in less victory-oriented fights like the Thirty, I want to hold onto as much mobility as I can.

So, can anyone give a definitive answer on what kind of shoulder protection would not be appropriate?

[audax]

Oh, that makes sense, yes. I am still not clear (nor, I suspect, are most people) on the extent to which artwork, especially that not depicting contemporary events, accurately portrays the period it is attempting to depict, versus the period in which it was produced.

As a tangent: does anyone have a sense of when the 'contemporary' style of Biblical/ancient art was phased out in favor of the 'ancient' style? I sort of like the idea of depicting Biblical events with contemporary clothing, since it emphasizes the eternal nature of the message.

But, anyway, no ailettes is not a problem, those cool one-piece rondel spaulders that everyone seems to be wearing are also really neat. Although, and JamesB's sketch made me wonder, is it period-appropriate not to wear spaulders at all? I do rather like the look of maille shoulders, and, moreover, wearing a low-profile hard plastic (or metal) protection underneath the maille might make for greater mobility; considering that I'm rather small, by modern/Society heavy combat standards (5'8" 170lb) I feel that, even in less victory-oriented fights like the Thirty, I want to hold onto as much mobility as I can.

So, can anyone give a definitive answer on what kind of shoulder protection would not be appropriate?

Well, anachronistic or exotic depictions of armour were kind of a shorthand for "these are bad guys/saracens/ancients" etc for a long time in medieval and ren art. Probably starts to fade out as Europe phased from a very religious to a more secular humanistic viewpoint.

Many effigies show knights without spaulders or with simple rondels in the early to mid 14th. You'll even see upper arm protections that combine the rerebrace with the shoulder cop, as in the Gunther von Schwartzburg effigy. Check out the Robert de Bures and Roger d'Aubernon effiges as well.

I know Murdock has about three bazillion effigies saved to his computer. maybe he'll weigh in at some point, though he is busy with a new baby and stuff. He is the 14th century mac daddy pimp.

Defnitely no pauldrons with haut guards at this date. No pteruges, either.

I also apologize if I came off too sharp. I should know better by now not to post after my landlord has pissed me off.

[David S]

Not to worry, you didn't come off too sharp.

I very much like the John d'Aubernon effigy, though I don't have the fluted bascinet to make the look complete. The identically-armored John de Creke is also a good dude to emulate, but I wonder if they aren't too early. Then again, Hugh Hastings (d. 1347) is similarly-equipped, so maybe it would be all right.

What I'm seeing in the effigies I've looked up is, circa 1350, there are a lot of snug, almost-knee-length side-laced surcoats, and some splinted cuisses, which are two things I was trying to learn more about.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I think a good fighting kit will come of this!

[audax]

Not to worry, you didn't come off too sharp.

I very much like the John d'Aubernon effigy, though I don't have the fluted bascinet to make the look complete. The identically-armored John de Creke is also a good dude to emulate, but I wonder if they aren't too early. Then again, Hugh Hastings (d. 1347) is similarly-equipped, so maybe it would be all right.

What I'm seeing in the effigies I've looked up is, circa 1350, there are a lot of snug, almost-knee-length side-laced surcoats, and some splinted cuisses, which are two things I was trying to learn more about.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I think a good fighting kit will come of this!

Defnitely on the right track.

[David S]

So, here's a rough sketch I did today (while my students were taking a test) of the kit I am planning to make:



I realize the proportions are a little off--the right arm is too long, and there isn't quite enough room for the left shoulder under the shield--but it should do to give y'all a sense of what I'm talking about.

For those with more experience than I: does anything stick out as anachronistic, undocumentable, or just ugly?

For rattan fighting, I'd need to clip on my bar grill, whereas for boffer fighting I'd need to make sure the flares on the knees don't project more than 1/2" away from the body, but other than that I think it's very doable. The maille chausses, though, will be either expensive or very time-consuming to make, depending on how I decide to get them taken care of.

[Robert of Canterbury]

Ransoms,

Here's a little food for thought,


Receipt of the ransom of a Knight of Burgundy, by a citizen of London, on behalf of an English Knight (1356)

Know all persons who these letters shall see or hear, that I, Simon de Worsted, mercer and citizen of London, do acknowledge that I have received, the day of the making hereof, in the name and behalf of Messire William de Welesby, Knight, of England, from Messire Thomas de Voudenay, Knight, of the Duchy of Burgundy, by the hands of Turel Gauscoin, merchant of Lucca, 300 golden florins of Florence, and a goblet with covercle, of silver, and a ring of gold without stone; in the which the said Messire Thomas was bound unto the said Messire William for his ransom, from the time that he was taken prisoner at the Battle of Poitiers, where the King of France was taken.  In the which 300 florins of gold, goblet with covercle, of silver, and ring of gold, and of his said ransom, I do, by these my letters, for ever acquit.  In witness of the truth whereof, to these letters I have set my seal, in the presence of Henry Pykard, Mayor of the City of London, Thomas Dolsely and Richard de Notyngham, Sheriffs of London, and Roger de Depham, Recorder of the same of the city, witnesses hereunto, especially called and required.  Given at London, in England, on the Eve of Christmas, in the year of Grace, 1356

 

Originally from the City of London Letter Book G, folio 58 in Norman French.
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/s ... ransom.htm

[Murdock]

"I know Murdock has about three bazillion effigies saved to his computer. maybe he'll weigh in at some point, though he is busy with a new baby and stuff. He is the 14th century mac daddy pimp. "


It's only a few hundred. But thanks

I have not found attliettes (sp?) on any effigy roughly contemporary with the historical COTT.


Back to packing.

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

Out of curiosity would you see a poorer man at arms of this time wearing a full hauberk like this? http://store.fastcommerce.com/prod_icef ... 52581.html under lets say splinted vambrace and simple couters along with a greathelm, cervellier, gamboised cuisse, soupcan knees, and shynbalds? Is it likely for one to wear besegews?

[RandallMoffett]

I suppose that's possible. 'd guess the mail is fine. Great helms clearly were in some use for decades after the bascinet became the helmet, I have found several 'men at arms' in them dated in the late 1340s and early 1350s. The rest of the armour is fine I suspect as you can find splints after 1350 fairly easy, though they become far less common after the first couple decades of the 2nd half... except perhaps splinted cuisses.

RPM

[white mountain armoury]

Out of curiosity would you see a poorer man at arms of this time wearing a full hauberk like this? http://store.fastcommerce.com/prod_icef ... 52581.html under lets say splinted vambrace and simple couters along with a greathelm, cervellier, gamboised cuisse, soupcan knees, and shynbalds? Is it likely for one to wear besegews?

I have a pic I can not share do to copywrite issues but it is circa 1340.
The gent has a maile hauberk, cote of plates, a small bascinet with aventail, gamboised cuisses, maile chausses, simple knee cop and a great helm hangs from his back via gaurd chains, finger gaunts as well
Another gent in the same image has splinted vams and simple greaves with brigandine work sabatons.
There only appear to be 5 splints total around the entire vambrace, and no rivits inbetween to indicate alternating rows of inside/outside splints.
The splints are very narrow.
My guess is reinforcement onn a hardened leather vambrace instead of a large amount of splints on a softer leather vambrace

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

How can I get to this image? Is it in a book that I could get a hold of? (Work at a large book store chain)

Out of curiosity would you see a poorer man at arms of this time wearing a full hauberk like this? http://store.fastcommerce.com/prod_icef ... 52581.html under lets say splinted vambrace and simple couters along with a greathelm, cervellier, gamboised cuisse, soupcan knees, and shynbalds? Is it likely for one to wear besegews?

I have a pic I can not share do to copywrite issues but it is circa 1340.
The gent has a maile hauberk, cote of plates, a small bascinet with aventail, gamboised cuisses, maile chausses, simple knee cop and a great helm hangs from his back via gaurd chains, finger gaunts as well
Another gent in the same image has splinted vams and simple greaves with brigandine work sabatons.
There only appear to be 5 splints total around the entire vambrace, and no rivits inbetween to indicate alternating rows of inside/outside splints.
The splints are very narrow.
My guess is reinforcement onn a hardened leather vambrace instead of a large amount of splints on a softer leather vambrace

[white mountain armoury]

How can I get to this image? Is it in a book that I could get a hold of? (Work at a large book store chain)

Out of curiosity would you see a poorer man at arms of this time wearing a full hauberk like this? http://store.fastcommerce.com/prod_icef ... 52581.html under lets say splinted vambrace and simple couters along with a greathelm, cervellier, gamboised cuisse, soupcan knees, and shynbalds? Is it likely for one to wear besegews?

I have a pic I can not share do to copywrite issues but it is circa 1340.
The gent has a maile hauberk, cote of plates, a small bascinet with aventail, gamboised cuisses, maile chausses, simple knee cop and a great helm hangs from his back via gaurd chains, finger gaunts as well
Another gent in the same image has splinted vams and simple greaves with brigandine work sabatons.
There only appear to be 5 splints total around the entire vambrace, and no rivits inbetween to indicate alternating rows of inside/outside splints.
The splints are very narrow.
My guess is reinforcement onn a hardened leather vambrace instead of a large amount of splints on a softer leather vambrace

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Sdo1g ... &ct=result

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

is it that image on page 385? of the three men sitting?

[RandallMoffett]

Are these the pictures you are looking for.

http://flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/16 ... 508791796/

This guys flicker account rocks by the way. I found some awesome stuff one here. Basing my new harness off a few of them!

RPM

[white mountain armoury]

His acct is excellent, those are the images. My wife exchanged a few e-mails with him, very nice fellow, well traveled with a "strong" intrest in armour.
His photos seem endless and he photographs the right stuff as well

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

Thank you Magnus I had been drooling at those photos for a while. Looks like one of them has a splinted vambrace with the splints not spread out as much, which would be prefferable to me since I have little natural padding

[talaananthes]

Slightly off time frame, but would splinted legs and full plate arms ever have been worn together, especially around 1360 +/- a few years?

[James B.]

This is the Romance of Alexander, about 10 years before the time period this thread is about. But as I said, having no ailettes is not, like, a problem or anything.

The Romance of Alexander runs from 1338-1344 and more on the 1344 end; you can see a big difference in the way the armored fighters are drawn in art from in the book and can tell which is earlier and which is later.

Also I put together some art for doing a Knight at Crecy and I have another manuscript dated to 1350 and the art is not much different than the RoA:

http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/CrecyKnights.htm

[Owyn]

Yes. You can see numerous examples that appear to be this sort of armor combination, dating to the 1350s and 1360s. Check the images here:

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm

(Warning: lots of effigies, long load time!)

[Munz]

Hopefully I will be at Pennsic next year and get to fight in the COTT. This is my current Crecy era harness (sans visor). I think it's rather nice. But I am working on a second blackened kit, so who knows which one will get packed for the war.

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/296 ... 2e74_b.jpg[/img]

[Michiel van Ravenstein]

I assume since this is a open IWTB thread that I can post a relevant question...

I'm putting together a 14th century kit and in addition to looking right, I'd love to one day fight in the COTT (or at least aim in the direction of the kits I've seen in this thread; I love them). I'm currently at a crossroads in my gauntlet selection. I wanted to check whether mitten gauntlets were still allowed or only fingered gauntlets.

I know fingered gauntlets are more appropriate, but I'm not sure what my options for armourers are at the moment. I was told Grettir the Slow made a great pair of mitten gauntlets with a fingered facade. I was not sure what his queue was like at the moment or if he was taking new orders.

I ask because I'm currently looking at buying a pair of Master Glendour's excellent new heat-treated mitten gaunts while they're available. I handled one at our Toys for Tots event this weekend and they are both light and protective, and that's really important to me. However, getting a plausible 14th century kit together is also a priority.

I am fortunate enough to be able to treat myself to something higher end at this time. Can any of you gentles offer information?

Thanks in advance