IWTB a CotT guy... 1351

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

If His Majesty Nigel doesn't see this thread I will let him know this week. I'm pretty sure they will still be letting people use mitten gauntlets though the closer to the real thing the better.

[Nigel, Duke of Arrochar]

<snip>
I know fingered gauntlets are more appropriate,
<snip>
I was told Grettir the Slow made a great pair of mitten gauntlets with a fingered facade.
<snip>
I ask because I'm currently looking at buying a pair of Master Glendour's excellent new heat-treated mitten gaunts while they're available.
<big>

Michiel,

Yes, finger gauntlets are more appropriate. Are they required? Not yet! I would not want to force this one on everyone yet because we would risk some seriously mashed up hands if people tried to wear poorly made peices of armour.
I have not heard of or seen the work of Grettir but I have seen some "fake" finger gauntlets that were mighty nice. I think one of the guys that used to make them was MacPherson but as far as I know he no longer takes SCA commissions.
I have seen Glendour's work up close, having crossed swords with a few times in my visits to Calontir. He is rightfully a Master of his craft. I have not seen his current mittens but I will assume they are beautiful. One question would be is "do they look to late for the CotT?" or for 14th c.? I know he does do a lot of later armour that would push it to the edge of the 14th c and sometimes distinctly into the 15th c.

My two cents,

Nigel
Rex Ealdormere
and returning captain of the French forces for this years CotT

[Michiel van Ravenstein]

Thank you for the response, Your Majesty. I'll weigh this in my decision.

I don't know if I'd be ready to 'apply' for admission into the Thirty this year, but if my level of kit and travel plans align it would be an honor. The pictures posted here have provided me with much inspiration.

[Jehan de Pelham]

I was suitably impressed by a late 14th century statuary that I saw in Germany while vacationing there some years ago. The armored figure had mitten gauntlets which shows evidence that they were used in at least the later 14th century in Germany. I would suggest further looking into this if one wishes to be more certain.

Best,

John

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

I was suitably impressed by a late 14th century statuary that I saw in Germany while vacationing there some years ago. The armored figure had mitten gauntlets which shows evidence that they were used in at least the later 14th century in Germany. I would suggest further looking into this if one wishes to be more certain.

Best,

John

Jehan, did you happen to get any photos of these?? I am curious to seewhat the clamshells loooked like for this time frame..

[Kalle Ommer]

I was suitably impressed by a late 14th century statuary that I saw in Germany while vacationing there some years ago. The armored figure had mitten gauntlets which shows evidence that they were used in at least the later 14th century in Germany. I would suggest further looking into this if one wishes to be more certain.

Best,

John

Do you by chance remember where you saw that?

[Lucian Ro]

Do you by chance remember where you saw that?

Yes, Kalle, we're going to need you to go take pictures, ASAP!

Munz that's a great kit, bravo!
Does anyone know the relevance of the tunic being short in the front and long in the back? I see it relatively frequently but never thought to ask the logical reason of such.

[Angusm0628]

Does anyone know the relevance of the tunic being short in the front and long in the back? I see it relatively frequently but never thought to ask the logical reason of such.

My first guess would be riding horse and mobility. But as I said it's just off the cuff notion

[white mountain armoury]

Do you by chance remember where you saw that?

Yes, Kalle, we're going to need you to go take pictures, ASAP!

Munz that's a great kit, bravo!
Does anyone know the relevance of the tunic being short in the front and long in the back? I see it relatively frequently but never thought to ask the logical reason of such.

imho its about layering, and showing the layers beneath.
Each layer gets shorter as you work your way out.
the cote being the longest, then the maile, then the cop and finally the surcote, eventually it disappears all together.

[Lucian Ro]

imho its about layering, and showing the layers beneath.
Each layer gets shorter as you work your way out.
the cote being the longest, then the maile, then the cop and finally the surcote, eventually it disappears all together.

Agreed Adam and I think that's what sets a lot of the nicer kits apart -- layering. Be it subtle or obvious, layering definitely adds dimension to the look.
I've been mulling over the ways to do this in head for a while now as it's quite the effort to layer here in Trimaris (Florida) and not end up a victim of heat stroke, lol. Regardless, my Deed of Arms/CotT kit will have layers, damn the heat.

[white mountain armoury]

Make sure you use linen, even my cop is linen, that will help a lot wit the heat.
Still hot is hot

[James B.]

Here are pictures of me with one of those crazy tabbards; my arming cote is red so you can see my layering of arming cote, maille, tabbard. My CoP is not dagged so you cannot see it.

[Lucian Ro]

Some questions, because I'm bored at work with a firewall:

It seems in many effigies I've noticed that rondeled elbow defenses seemed to have been in longer use, year-wise, than rondeled knee defenses. Is there a reason for that?
What were the more common years for rondeled knees?
Elbows?

How early were sabatons in common use? Many of the 14th century effigies have mail foot protection, but as I am at work, I can't go back and check what years those effigies were from.
In the same vein, when did they transition from single-sided greaves to cased greaves?

In a specifically SCA CotT context, how many of you have actually drawn your scabbarded sword in combat? I hear of daggers being used all the time but how about your sword? I ask because time is growing scarce for The Deed at Gulf Wars and if the swords are rarely used I may have to pass on this until Pennsic.

[Lucian Ro]

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

[Cian of Storvik]

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll curse you and go find someone else to give him a fish." - anonymous

Rather then answer your specific questions, I will direct you to Talbot's Statistical Analysis of historic effigies. Which gives a bar graph extrapolation by date of armor as worn on effigies broken down by region (england, germany, or both). So you can see when they appear to come into use, and when they become common and eventually disappear from any image. It includes sabatons, floating arm protection, leg protection, mail use. etc.

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... lysis.html

I'm not aware of rondels in use on knees unless you're talking about the plates that were like shallow bowls or dished saucers worn at the knee cap, late in the 13th century. Knees were usually cops, soupcans or full articulations. The rest of your questions, and possibly more, should be answered by Talbot's site (sabatons, elbows, greaves etc.)

I can't answer the last question. I've never worn a scabbard in a fight.
-Cian

[Alexander of Lancaster]

Do you by chance remember where you saw that?

Yes, Kalle, we're going to need you to go take pictures, ASAP!

Munz that's a great kit, bravo!
Does anyone know the relevance of the tunic being short in the front and long in the back? I see it relatively frequently but never thought to ask the logical reason of such.

This information comes mainly from the insert to a medieval pattern kit that I bought for hosen, gambeson, surcoats, and cuisses. I wish I had it with me, perhaps I can log in later and give you an exact source, ie the name of the pattern. The creator of the pattern gives historical guidance of all the pieces and states that in England the surcoat went through a change in the late 1300s in which the front was shorter than the back. It is termed a cyclas and it was apparently done only to expose the new plate cuisses. If I recall the hemline fell back and normalized once the novelty of plate wore off, 20 years perhaps? So all of that is second hand information that I cannot site but it seems very logical.

[talaananthes]

The round-faced klappvisors seem to be pretty common in CotT photos . . . were those actually in use by 1351, or is that one of the aspects of late 14th century stuff that's still commonly used?

[Cian of Storvik]

Klapvisor is not a shape of visor, but the way it is mounted; by a single hinge at the center of the forehead. It was most notably a germanic style though used by other continentals. The English seemed to prefer riveted pivots on either side of the head at or near the ears) a predominance which seems to have continued into the age of the sallet.
-Cian

[talaananthes]

Yeah, I know that much (Is there are more technical term for this shape visor than a round-face? I'm not sure what that's called, as oppose to the houndskulls.), just trying to figure out when that sort did come into being, and whether the prevalence of them in SCA and CotT photos is a SCAism . . . I like mid-14th, and being able to fight in the CotT in a few years is a goal of mine, and I'm trying to do the kit right from the beginning so that I'm not having to replace everything a few years down the line, and trying to find date ranges on bascinet visor forms (or even what all the types of visors there are) is like pulling teeth.

[Vilhelm550]

OK, reading that subject line, it sounds bad. I concidered attempting to start a new thread, since there really isn't one just for the reconstruction/recreation of purely 'Swede from the Battle of Wisby, 1361'

But, since my inspiration, and ultimate goal, is to be in the CotT at least once, I'm posting this here.

Anyways, here's what I'm after. Here is my current rig. It is currently composedof a WMA kettle helm, Polar Bear forge Lamellar,, lamellar panels over the shoulders, Cold Forge Armoury's elbows and knees, Wife-made gambeson and padded chauses, Zweihammer gauntlets, self-made vambraces and greaves.
I did remove the two lowest rows of lamellar, and have it in mind to improve the look with:

Different shoulder cops (WMA ones or similar)
Maille psuedo-coif
Maille sleeves (pointed under the edge of the gambeson arm opening, and sitting under the sleeves, to give the appearence of a full maille shirt withough the weight)
Revival buckle low-boots
More accurate cuirboulli schynbalds or frontal greaves
Working on getting a Wisby-style gauntlet kit from Whonew.

My primary sources are 'Armour from the Battle of Wisby, 1361' by Bengt Thordeman (yes, I did actually read the WHOLE THING),
and Osprey's two Scandinavian Armies books and the usual slew of references for 14th century

So, any comments/critiques or ideas to make this suitable for the CotT, or just make it more spiffy?

[Gryffinclaw]

[quote=

So, any comments/critiques or ideas to make this suitable for the CotT, or just make it more spiffy?[/quote]

. Psueso coif? Not sure what you mean but a nice aventail with bling on the edges would look good. If you hung it so that the face formed a "V" it would minimize the bars and look great. Consider lining the aventail with fabric to hide any undersides of the kettle.

2. Black the vambraces and put splints on them. It would minimize all the colors you have and blend them beter with your overall theme.

3. You said you are making wisby gauntlets so make a nice sword with period looking shied furniture to match (NVM I see you holding one now) and maybe a nice scabbard to put it in. Sir Vitus does great work and has good examples on him webpage.

4. Edge your shield in leather to hide the hose

These are simply my suggestions. Your kit looks great. Keep up the good work.

[Vilhelm550]

Thanks for the reply Gryffinclaw.

1. By 'psuedo-coif' I basically meant what is refered to as an aventail...though historically a kettle healm would be worn over a coif, which would be worn over a padded hood or cap. The leather drap is what I refer to as a psudo-coif. It's not the full, real thing, but designed to emulate one. A maille one would actually just ride over the leather one, to get the layered appearance, and hide the grill. Or I might make leather panels under a maille psudo-coif for the same effect.

2. Gonna be hard to get rid of my vambraces..I just made them last spring! They are sole-bend, wax hardened, and have latin inscriptions and my Kingdom's sumbols on them, the Gryphon on the lect, and Compas Rose on the right. The latin is fun things like 'may the Force be with you', 'shit happens', and a quote form Horace; "Joking aside, let us turn to serious matters.", among other things.
That aside, I might transition to splinted vambraces with a similar theme in darker leather and elbow cops that match the knees better in the near future. As for collors, I am trying to incorporate my device colors of gold/yellow, red, white and black in my overall kit.

3. Yes, I have Windrose hilts on a couple of my swords, this on, a dagger, and on my bastard sword...although I have found metric sockets give me a much better weighted pommel...from a few feet away they are just a shiny, cylindrical pommel!
As for a scabbard, I have done a fair bit of leatherwork, so that is on my list of projects, as well, but in the meantime, I might have to go with the steel ring-scabbard for a while.
I'd love to have a Sir Vitus item, and have looked at his scabbards and shields and belts for inspiration.
(And Really looking forward to working on the Whonew Wisby Gauntlets!)

4. I plan on redoing the edges of my heater and my warshield, when time permits with leather over Windrose shield edging.

Getting the buckle boots is decided, just need funds, but the greaves and shoulders are up in the air. Do I replace my current lamellar panel shoulder for more historically appropriate plate cops? Do I keep my leather greaves, installing splints to improve appearance and function? (They are a heavy pebble-grain finished boar-hide, and started life as a boot project.)

Thanks again, and I look forward to more ideas, comments and critiques form anyone!


Vilhelm

[Lucian Ro]

I've seen what looks like heraldric 'plaques', for lack of a better term, laced below the chin on many aventails. Would this be for your personal device, your lords or your countries device? Or any of the three?
And, along that vein, someone have a link to a good pic of an English flag for this timeframe?

[Edward MacTavish]

Mine is my arms. Makes it easy to identify my helmet


On the sword, scabbard question. Yes I have drawn my sword in combat. Lots of fun if you are activaly being attacked. The best advice I could give is to make sure that your scabbard is not too tight, and keep fresh tape on your sword. Also dont put a friction tape as your edge.

If you have seen the movies where the guy has his weapon knocked away and he is ducking behind his shield for a bit with the bad guy bashing away at him while he draws his sword? That is what it feels like.

Edward

[Lucian Ro]

Question:

Gulf Wars is fast approaching and I don't know if I'm going ot have a chance to get my COP done for The Deed.

With that said, do I remember correctly that there were older lamellar examples found at the excavation sites in Visby?
Granted, if I wore it it would be covered by a surcotte but I've worked so hard on the rest of my kit that I didn't really want to have some type of glaring anachronism, even if it isn't that obvious to others visually.
On the other hand, if it's feasible, I just may have to.

And on a completely unrelated note, my sabatons arrived yesterday.

[Vilhelm550]

My kit is based off of the Type 24 and 25 lamellar armours found at the Battle of Wisby, 1361. Why I'm hoping, covered with a surcote of some sort, I too can sneak into the Combat of The Thirty some day....


Vilhelm

[Karl Helweg]

The StatutaArmorum.org is back up: http://www.kingdomofcalidore.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

[GodfreyofGyldenholt]

Bumping favorite thread for more pictures! Is it too soon for 2011 cott pictures? :)

[twoswords]

CoTT at Pennsic XL (2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQmd6tqE ... e=youtu.be

[twoswords]

I am trying to find good sources for English shoulder armor 1350. I am looking for if (and how) they were attached to the rerebands, their typical design and how they were attached to the shoulder. Anyone sitting on some good documentation?

[James B.]

[quote="twoswords"]I am trying to find good sources for English shoulder armor 1350. I am looking for if (and how) they were attached to the rerebands, their typical design and how they were attached to the shoulder. Anyone sitting on some good documentation?[/quote]

Likely they just laced at the shoulder and overlapped the rearbrace and strapped down. There are few detailed effigies that show attachment points but this formation seems typical through out the middle ages and extant examples have the rivet holes in the same place through out the middle ages. My arms and spaulders are from H.E. and that is how they work if you want plate shoulders.

Many characters in manuscripts are shown to be wearing no plate shoulders but instead maille draping down to the elbow or just past like you find in Italian art and the Churburg examples (short rearbrace on the arms too).

[twoswords]

Are there any good people who sell plaques for the ever so common hip belt, or are there any good guides on the net over how to do them myself?

[Lucian Ro]

[quote]Are there any good people who sell plaques for the ever so common hip belt, or are there any good guides on the net over how to do them myself?[/quote]

I made mine out of brass sheet.
Isabella makes some really pretty ones she casts in pewter, I believe. Luther, from Anshelm, makes the pyramidal slide-on type plaques. Armour and Castings also has them.

[Andrew Sterner]

Okay I have a possibly stupid question.

When you're looking at effigies, what dates do you use in reference to the date you wish to portray?

I may be overthinking this, but let's say I want to look the part for 1351. Would I be trying to get to that date, slightly before, slightly after, or something else?

I hurt my brain trying to sort it out, and I figure I can end it with this. Sorry if you're offended, and you're welcome if you find it silly and get a laugh.

[James B.]

[quote="Andrew Sterner"]When you're looking at effigies, what dates do you use in reference to the date you wish to portray?

I may be overthinking this, but let's say I want to look the part for 1351. Would I be trying to get to that date, slightly before, slightly after, or something else?

I hurt my brain trying to sort it out, and I figure I can end it with this. Sorry if you're offended, and you're welcome if you find it silly and get a laugh.[/quote]


Effigies are tricky; sometimes they are made before the death of the person so the armor is older than the death date, and sometimes they are made long after their death so the armor is not what they wore. Your best bet is to use a combo of manuscripts and effigies, the manuscripts show the right style for an era and the effigies can fill in details.