A pair of goblet cases

[Cat]

I was commissioned to make a pair of goblet cases, and finished these up just before Christmas.

These were formed around goblets/beakers/glasses (whatever you call them) from Historic Enterprises. This is the first time I have made a case like this, and although they look ok, I am still a bit disappointed. For one, the fit was a little too snug. Another thing that bothers me is the way the seams came out. I will need to find ways to improve both of these issues for the next time.

I did learn a few things, so it's not all bad. Just need to think of ways to make them better.

Here's a pic of the original these were based off of, and a few pics of the ones I made. The pics are kind of crappy.

EDIT: Having trouble with pics. Working on it..

Cat

[Cat]

Hopefully these aren't too big. I will fix them if they are.

Cat

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/cases4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/7 ... 5small.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/7 ... 6small.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/7 ... nsmall.jpg[/img]

[Cat]

Slightly better pic of one of them.

[chef de chambre]

It looks great Cat!

[Cat]

Thanks. I'm not 100% happy with them, though. But, I do have some ideas on how to improve the next one. I just wish THESE had turned out better.

Cat

[Kilkenny]

chuckle.

Cat, you may not be happy, but from what I can see in the pictures, you would have every right to be happy.

They look terrific.

What weight leather did you use for these ?

I am, as so often is the case with your work, envious

[Cat]

Thanks. You know how it is though. The person who makes the stuff can't usually get past the mistakes. lol

I am not sure of the weights, because I just looked for the right thickness when I bought the leather. I would guess the inner layers are 4 to 5 ounce, and the outer tooled layer is probably 3-4. I think I could go thinner on the outer layer, and go back up to 5-6 ounce on the inner.

Thanks again,
Cat

[Kaos]

They're lovely!
You never fail to inspire me! Thanks!

[Baron Conal]

They look great....... something to aspire to as
I learn more about leather craft.

[Jeff J]

Sweet!

[Cat]

Thanks so much guys. These were not easy to make. In fact they were FAR more challenging than I imagined - lots of stuff to account for and figure out.

I would be happy to discuss construction techniques and would love to toss around ideas on ways to improve. With all the knowledge on this board, I think we could come up with some ideas that could bring us closer to being able to reproduce these properly. If we could do that, just imagine the pieces that will get produced!

One thing I think needs done with the seams is to overlap them instead of having the leather simply "meet" at the edges. Another thing that I think needs done is to make the tooled layer in one piece, rather than in several as I did on these, although that will create other problems.

I'm thinking you'd need to skive the edges of the overlapping pieces down, as Mac had suggested on another thread. I did a little bit of that on this one. The string slots were made from the heavier leather, and were then covered with the thinner, tooled layer. To keep the egdes of the thicker leather from showing through the tooled layer, I sanded them down super thin at the edges. As a result, you can't see the edges through the tooled layer.

Sanding down the tooled layer would probably work in a similar fashion, but you would have to be very careful, and be precise with the design layout so everything ended up in the right place in order to hide the seam. Not so easy to do since you kind of need to wet form the tooled layer in order to get a good fit. I have found with the thinner leather, the wetter you get it, the more it shrinks - which is a problem when it comes to getting a good fit and making everything line up correctly.

Anyway, I guess I'm rambling a bit. I'm just excited about getting these issues figured out, because there are so many things I would love to make, and would love to be able to produce them correctly. We have seen armour come a long way, woodworking come a long way, maille come a long way, and pouches come a long way all in the past few years. The time is ripe for leather cases to come into their own.

Cat

[James B.]

Wow really nice copies Cat!

[Cian of Storvik]

I think they look wonderful. I have on my to-do list, a tooled leather box to keep my flat and holloware in. And possibly a fancy smaller cylindrical box for my tumbler.
-Cian

[Chris Gilman]

Nice job. I like them.

[Kilkenny]

Cat made the comment "the time is right for leather cases to come into their own". I don't think she has any idea how much impact her work has in making this true

I also note that it would be fantastic if someone, someplace were to do a book in the vein of Stepping Through Time and Purses in Pieces on leather cases.

The things were ubiquitous throughout the middle ages and on into the Renaissance. Heck, I think they probably stayed common until plastics took over. Yet we don't have much information on how to make them and very few places to go to get them.

As to construction techniques, I think Cat is very much on the right track using a thin leather for the tooled outer covering. I wonder how often things we see as leather cases are actually a decorative leather cover on a wooden case. Likewise, I wonder if in some cases the case has a hardened leather inner layer. And of course it could be a thicker inner layer with no special treatment and a decorative outer layer.

I wonder if the outer layer is glued on. I would think that this would be likely and possibly an important contributor to the lack of visible seams.
Properly skived and fitted, a glued join can be pretty hard to spot. Run the appropriate decorative element along the line of the join and it could be completely hidden.

I wonder to what extent various forms were molded in one piece and possibly not tooled until formed, with the tooling being done while the leather was stretched on the molding block.

Loads of questions and not enough information to be had Nor time to experiment and see what works. sigh.

[Alexander Younger]

Wow, those look great. They really, really look awesome.

Silly question, but could you post a picture of the beakers that go in them? Perhaps next to the the cases, so you can get a sense of how much case there is around the glass?

[Cat]

Alexander,
It doesn't look like I took any pics with the glasses standing next to them, but I do have some other pics that might help explain how they are constructed.

The wolf case has the insert (the piece the glass slides into), plus two more outer layers - not including the tooled layer.

The dolphin case has all that, plus a collar piece around the top edge of the second outer layer. The bottom half of the collar piece was sanded down from the grain side to make it flow into the rest of the body. (the pic below shows the collar piece before sanding)

The extra layers were added to these in order to make the bottom portion meet up evenly with the edges of the lids.

Kilkenny,
I HIGHLY suspect that the tooled layer was glued on. It gives the right look. I've tried hidden stitching, and it just doesn't look the same, although that could simply be my lack of skill and experience with that type of stitching.

As for the tooling being done after the leather is glued on, I kind of doubt it. It's possible, but I can tell you from experience that it is a TOTAL pain to do it that way. Plus, I have seen some of these that have had their decorations pushed out from the flesh side, which would be impossible if it were already glued on. I simply don't know for sure. More experimentation is what is needed. And a good imagination. lol

Cat

In the pic below titled "layers1" shows an insert (right), and an insert that has had the first outer layer attached,

In the second pic ("layers2"), the case on the left has the second outer layer added. The case on the right (can only see about half of the case) has both outer layers added plus the collar. (the collar was unsanded at this point)

[Alexander Younger]

Alexander,
It doesn't look like I took any pics with the glasses standing next to them, but I do have some other pics that might help explain how they are constructed.

The picture with the ruler is great, give me a sense of scale for the whole thing.

[Kel Rekuta]

Thanks so much guys. These were not easy to make. In fact they were FAR more challenging than I imagined - lots of stuff to account for and figure out.

Yes indeed. However, you clearly learned a lot and undoubtedly motivated a number of us to take an interest in leather cases. I made a couple goblet cases in October. The first one was too small even though I was very careful with the pattern. Perhaps too careful. The second one is a treat. I haven't even bothered to sew the rims yet, I like how it looks just glued on.

I'm thinking you'd need to skive the edges of the overlapping pieces down, as Mac had suggested on another thread. I did a little bit of that on this one. The string slots were made from the heavier leather, and were then covered with the thinner, tooled layer. To keep the egdes of the thicker leather from showing through the tooled layer, I sanded them down super thin at the edges. As a result, you can't see the edges through the tooled layer.

Sanding down the tooled layer would probably work in a similar fashion, but you would have to be very careful, and be precise with the design layout so everything ended up in the right place in order to hide the seam. Not so easy to do since you kind of need to wet form the tooled layer in order to get a good fit. I have found with the thinner leather, the wetter you get it, the more it shrinks - which is a problem when it comes to getting a good fit and making everything line up correctly.

Cat

I made the interior case first to fit the goblet. I just lapped bevels and glued that. I took all subsequent measurements off the exterior of that. I don't have time or talent for carving utility pieces so I just stamped and creased some decoration on. I think both inner and outer layers were about the same weight, although the inner was veg and the outer was oil dressed strap. Beveling the joints and gluing the outside on was a snap. A few passes with a bone folder smoothed out the joint. The cord loops were wet pressed and doweled out to shape from the outer layer.

IMHO, tooling very thin veg creates an unstable fibre mass. It can't possibly dry evenly unless over a very long period. Hide glued layers are easier to manipulate with slightly damp leather. They don't set as fast. Keeping it warm helps too. I think two bonded thin layers have the same strength as a thick and thin one might. They are also much easier to work with.

Let me finish by thanking you for the inspiration to make a goblet case. I've needed one for about twenty years!

[Klaus the Red]

I was the client, and these were 12th Night gifts for Their Highnesses Prince Leohtulf and Princess Gillian of the Mists (or, my friends John and Sandy if you don't have your SCAdian translator on). The glasses they were built around are Historic Enterprises' basic green beakers, one with prunts, one without:
http://historicenterprises.biz/reenactm ... 2_187.html

..and yes, these cases are as sexy in person as they look in the pictures. If not moreso.

[Klaus the Red]

Sorry, duplicate post.