The Armour Archive

Hello,

A different thread got me thinking. My daughter may one day decide to take up youth combat (or maybe she doesn't but wants to wear something heraldric). I have registered heraldry, my wife has registered heraldry. I know that we can not register heraldry for my daughter that is marshalled but is there a rule that prohibits the display of such devices? Is there an unwritten code of conduct or long-standing custom that prohibits the display of marshaled arms?

Thanks,
Sean

You could take elements of each of your arms and change them a bit?
My SCA arms have elements of my family's arms, just combined differently.

Sean Powell wrote:Hello,

A different thread got me thinking. My daughter may one day decide to take up youth combat (or maybe she doesn't but wants to wear something heraldric). I have registered heraldry, my wife has registered heraldry. I know that we can not register heraldry for my daughter that is marshalled but is there a rule that prohibits the display of such devices? Is there an unwritten code of conduct or long-standing custom that prohibits the display of marshaled arms?

Thanks,
Sean

Do it. No marshaled arms is a stupid rule.

Greetings,
Once again I find myself in agreement with Irish.
There is zero reason not to marshal your arms for your child to wear until she gets her own. As long as you aren't trying to be "official" and register it or some such, it's just cloth. How you choose to adorn your clothes isn't regulated by Society.
Also, it's very period depending on culture, but then, when have we in the SCA been too strict on that sort of thing.
I know if MY child, ( as yet unrealized ) wanted to wear her parents Arms, I would be proud as punch.

InsaneIrish wrote:Do it. No marshaled arms is a stupid rule.

+1

my son has a shield

it's my arms with a lable at the top

that's not the SCA way

and i don't much care.


You want your kid wearing your arms that way, paint it up.

Someone gives you grief over it? politely tell em to stuff it their their bodily orifice of choice.

It's your child and your device.

It has been years since last keeping up on any changes in the SCA Heraldic rules. But marshaling was never an issue when it came to a son and/or daughter wanting to use their parents devices until getting a registered personal one.

I have seen a few devices with marshaled differencing in years past, though. I believe Duke Paul's son used his father's Arms while fighting until he got his own.

Murdock wrote:my son has a shield

it's my arms with a lable at the top

that's not the SCA way

and i don't much care.

That should be registerable with a letter allowing one CD from your arms.

As to the original question: There is absolutely nothing the college of heralds can do to prevent you from displaying marshaled arms. They just won't let you register it (at this point in time).

You should absolutely do those things which make everything more period.

The rule that prohibits marshalling of arms for SCA rules falls under this rule: http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#11.3

3. Marshalling. - Armory that appears to marshall independent arms is considered presumptuous.

Period marshalling combined two or more separate designs to indicate descent from noble parents and claim to inheritance. Since members of the Society are all required to earn their status on their own merits, apparent claims to inherited status are presumptuous. Divisions commonly used for marshalling, such as quarterly or per pale, may only be used in contexts that ensure marshalling is not suggested.

a. Such fields may be used with identical charges over the entire field, or with complex lines of partition or charges overall that were not used for marshalling in period heraldry.

b. Such fields may only be used when no single portion of the field may appear to be an independent piece of armory.

No section of the field may contain an ordinary that terminates at the edge of that section, or more than one charge unless those charges are part of a group over the whole field. Charged sections must all contain charges of the same type to avoid the appearance of being different from each other.

I understand the concept of the rule in that just because the parents may both be en'nobled by SCA awards this does not automatically grant such status to their children. But really, it's a pointless rule to some degree as certain Kingdoms require you to need at least an AoA before you display your own arms/device (I believe this to be true at least, please enlighten me if it is not so). Others do not. That makes this application somewhat defective in terms of registering arms/device depending on individual Kingdom practice, at least in my mind since no one checks the individual kingdom rules...

People still do it all the time. I'm sure as hell not going to tell the uber Dukes and their squires that I know NOT to.

Sean Powell wrote:A different thread got me thinking. My daughter may one day decide to take up youth combat (or maybe she doesn't but wants to wear something heraldric). I have registered heraldry, my wife has registered heraldry. I know that we can not register heraldry for my daughter that is marshalled but is there a rule that prohibits the display of such devices? Is there an unwritten code of conduct or long-standing custom that prohibits the display of marshaled arms?

Thanks,
Sean

I gather that there is not -- and Mistress Alisaunde de Bregeuf of the East has written recommending just such a thing for garb ornamentation at least for little kids, as a way of indicating which armigers you might go looking for if the kid has gotten lost or is up to something he or she shouldn't be. As you say, it isn't protected under Laurel's registry, and so is altogether not official in any wise.

Murdock, I'd say you're about half right. While it is not the Official SCA Way to use or protect this mark of cadency, no one sensible is going to complain at the eldest son of your loins using a shield with your arms and a label until such time as he registers a Device of his own, and in certain readily imaginable circumstances, even afterwards.

The reason the SCA officially prohibits marshalling is that the SCA is about individual accomplishment, not heritage. Having a minor child bear his or her parents' arms marshalled is one thing - similar to a son adding a lable to his father's arms. But at some point, that young person should seek a design of his or her own, so that he or she may begin to earn their own renown.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:But at some point, that young person should seek a design of his or her own, so that he or she may begin to earn their own renown.

And that is such an amazingly MODERN concept. The item carries the honor of the previous bearer that the new bearer is wishing to assume upon himself. What ever happened to bringing MORE honor to the family by carrying the ancient and venerable device with you?

I really just don't see Henry VI saying "Dad, love what you did with the whole Crecy, Agincort, and Poitiers thing but this whole lions and flowers heraldry just isn't doing it for me. I'm thinking of starting over with maybe some wolves and beer steins and crossed swords and oh yeah, it's gotta be black 'cause black is cool and I want it simple enough that I can paint it myself rather then pay a craftsman to do it for me."

Sorry, just letting the inner snark up for a breath of fresh air.

I'm happy to see that the SCA does not prohibit BEARING of marshaled arms, only registering of said arms. I probably have years before I need to actually think about accurate heraldry for my daughter and combat but eventually I would like to approach it properly... And as Irish pointed out, I could just do it because it's a stupid rule.

Thanks all,
Sean

All right, Sean... [pat pat]

Now take this gunny sack and *suppress* him, Alice In Wonderland school.

Sean Powell wrote: I could just do it because it's a stupid rule.

Thanks all,
Sean

I do. For all 6 of my kids.....

Haldan