braies question

[Black Swan Designs]

Hiya Mac-

Will do, but it won't be until after I get back from Pennsic. I leave this afternoon, and the few minutes it's taking me to eat this bowl of cereal may be the only quiet time I'll have today.

If you remind me when I get back I'll be happy to. Unless one of the product testers want to post pics before then.

See you soon-

Gwen

[earnest carruthers]

There is a pair of Italian breeches found in a wall, currently being written up, complete and basically boxer shorts, I will check if they have a side slit for the wanger.

[James B.]

There is a pair of Italian breeches found in a wall, currently being written up, complete and basically boxer shorts, I will check if they have a side slit for the wanger.

Awesome; I would love to see the details, time, shape, material

[Mac]

Hiya Mac-

Will do, but it won't be until after I get back from Pennsic. I leave this afternoon, and the few minutes it's taking me to eat this bowl of cereal may be the only quiet time I'll have today.

If you remind me when I get back I'll be happy to. Unless one of the product testers want to post pics before then.

See you soon-

Gwen

Thank you, Gwen! I look forward to seeing how they fit. Meanwhile, I will see you at Pennsic.

Mac

[Mac]

There is a pair of Italian breeches found in a wall, currently being written up, complete and basically boxer shorts, I will check if they have a side slit for the wanger.

Awesome; I would love to see the details, time, shape, material

Ditto!

Mac

[Mac]

Earlier in this thread I posted pics of how I hold up my hosen with a belt and brooches.

Some folks asked if we had any pewter brooches that would do for this application. At the time, we did not, but we do now. These will be available starting at Pennsic.


Mac

[Robert of Canterbury]

There is a piece of an extant braies girdle in the Museum of London collection, I believe if is a wide girdle with 4 sets of holes and a leather thong threaded through the holes that was attached to a ring broach. You could adjust the length of the leather thong to tighten the hold on the hosen that way.

James,

I remember reading an article about this long ago. At the time, I could not make much sense of the object, but I am prepared to try again. Have you got a good pic of it?

Mac

No I don't; it is on the La Belle material items guide, I think Bob is the one who has the information on it.

It is published in the London Museum Catalogue: No. 7 :
Medieval Catalogue, by J. B. Ward Perkins and originally published in
1940 (though with later reprints). The piece is illustrated on page 196,
fig. 63, no. 3.

It's Small. Dimensions are: L 115 mm; W (max) 28mm; DM (buckle) 14mm

I'll be taking a look at the piece in a couple of weeks, and while I won't be able to share pictures, my brains should be open for picking..

[James B.]

Robert it was mentioned to me that it had a two tongue tie end like an earlier sword belt might, could you confirm that when you have a look

[Jonathon Janusz]

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the thread. Right now, I only have an ancient, failing digital camera. If I can get my hands on a better one (and or a willing volunteer to [ahem] take some photos of me in my skivvies), I'll get some pics up of Gwen's prototype braies.

[brewer]

Once you understand rectangular construction, everything in the world turns into Legos without you even realizing it. No worries at all.

Interestingly enough, I checked RH's website again and found the braies, but they seem to be on backorder-



Not sure if I missed them the first time, or they've been re-added. Wayback Machine was no help, so hard to know.

I'll have a think on what to do about this. If I offer them, they'll be in the same price range as our other 14th C. braies ($24.95), which makes them $10-$20 less than either of 'the competition'. It may be worthwhile to offer them as a cost effective alternative. Hmm.

Gwen

Gwen,

Please don't think you have to avoid selling something if we're selling a similar item! Competition is good! Besides, while we share customers, the products are different; ours have a tendency to be more sheer, because we make them out of a lighter-weight linen.

They can be alarmingly transparent, especially when wet. If your mind's eye can stand the strain, imagine me running around fixing tent ropes in a strong thunderstorm in just braies and a shirt - when I came back in the tent Baron Alejandro started laughing. I asked why. He said, "Look down." Yikes!

We had/have 'em on backorder because of Pennsic (and I still have to do a post-Pennsic inventory and update stock availability ) Sold out of the "Pennsic Medium" by middle weekend.

They are blindingly simple to make, though French seams take time, hence the difference in our pricing. Three squares. That's it. We sell 'em because most people don't want to spend their limited time making underwear; they want to make the outerwear and have done with it.

Cheers!

Bob

[Fian]

Just reading through all of this as I'm aware I need to make my own kit over the winter, the braies that my group use are a different pattern to all that I've seen here. We do our stuff through in Scotland over the Wars of Independence 1296 to 1328, so it is an earlier period and a different area than most of the examples shown in the thread.

They are a rectangular pattern with the leg holes at the sides so that when you are wearing them, the loose fabric bunches up at the front and back to provide enough room for the bum and crotch. Simple ties are attached at the front above each leg for tying up the hose. With a tie through the top of the fabric for securing at the waist. When worn, they come down to just above the knees.

Just throwing that design in there see what people think.

[sha-ul]

They can be alarmingly transparent, especially when wet. If your mind's eye can stand the strain, imagine me running around fixing tent ropes in a strong thunderstorm in just braies and a shirt - when I came back in the tent Baron Alejandro started laughing. I asked why. He said, "Look down." Yikes!

[Sean Powell]

AH HA! Took forever to find this as I couldn't find any good key words. Now that I have...

Live again ancient thread, LIVE!

While flipping through clothing/fashion books at a mini-event recently I stumbled accross "Allegorical figure of a boy" by Donatello dated 1430. I can find front and back views but no good side view. The book in question (which I didn't write down, sorry) had a slightly more rotated image. This is the best I can find online.

(potential NSFW as the boy is wearing hose and naught else)
http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo ... -donatello

Here are some other images.
http://www.lib-art.com/artgallery/9169- ... tello.html
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/d/donatell/2_mature/3atys.html

The key is that the hose are pointed to a belt. There is no ring broach or pin displayed. The belt is a WIDE belt that appears to be closed by a buckle with the tongue tucked into a keeper loop. The laces pass from outside in on the belt (which I do when pointing my leg armor as it doesn't roll the belt causing the lower edge to dig in) and are knotted at the hose implying that the laces stay with the belt and not with the hose.

Now we could speculate that said child isn't potty-trained and is left without braise to keep them from getting soiled and an adult would point/pin his hose directly to his braise but I think this give evidence to using a wide belt to support hose independent of the braise circa 1430.

Since there are so few examples of partially clothed people I thought I would add some fuel to the fire even if the conversation was over 6 months ago.

Enjoy!
Sean

[James B.]

Looking at the image here you can blow it up: http://en.wahooart.com/A55A04/w.nsf/Opra/BRUE-7YMRZY

Looks like to me the boy has broaches on the hosen like the MoL extant example has. The point or cord ties the broach to the girdle. In the MoL example there is a leather cord.

Going back to the example of St George from the The Hours of Catherine of Cleves (1430s) he has tied his hosen straight to the girdle in his braise which have and opening at the waist.

[Mac]

James,

Much though I would like to agree with you about the Donatello sculpture having brooches to hold up the hosen, (since I sell them for that purpose) I am afraid that I can not.

As far as I can tell, the cord is simply passed through the fabric of the hosen and knotted on the outside. I suppose that the fabric must be provided with reinforced holes for the purpose.

Mac

[James B.]

It is so hard to tell I wish I had a better image to look at.

[Mac]

Just so... Another view would go a long way toward revealing the truth of the thing.

Mac

[Mac]

OK. Here's the best I can find. this comes from Luigi Grassi's "All the Sculpture of Donatello", part 1, plate 96. 1964, Hawthorn Books.




I have blown up a detail as much as I can. (the detail does not include "de tail") I am sure that I can see at least one end of the cord. I think I can see the knot. Do we know anyone in Florence who can go to the Bargello and snap us the relevant pic?




Mac

[Sean Powell]

Sorry, I posted everything I had. I was hoping that if I gave the statue name that someone who had visited Museo Nazionale del Bargello, Florence might have taken personal photos that included a side view. Do we know anyone near florence or visiting soon who might get better pictures?

James raises a different question though. What is that metalic broach looking thing above the lacing holes on the belt and what do they do?

Sean

[Mac]

Sean,

I think that the thing above the lace holes is just the first in a series of decorative mounts that continues around the back of the belt. I don't think it is related to holding up the hosen at all.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

Sean,

I think that the thing above the lace holes is just the first in a series of decorative mounts that continues around the back of the belt. I don't think it is related to holding up the hosen at all.

Mac

Thanks, I figured at out once I was done typing my post. Next question would be what is the decorative element and how is it attached to the belt (or is it tooled in).

[Mac]

My best guess is that the decoration represents pots of flowers, turned sideways. Pots of lilies are a common motif, alluding to the BVM. They represent the lilies of the Annunciation.

The "pots" (if pots they are) are in pretty high relief, which suggests applied metal. On the other hand, their length would make the belt stiff, and they would be liable to get bent up. Unless Donatello completely abandoned reality in this detail, the decoration must be flexible....and now I am out out my depth.

Mac

[James B.]

I would suspect that represents metal mounts also.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Let me look through my pics. We went to the Barghello a few years back.

[Mac]

That would be great, Fearghus. I hope you have the one that will help us!

Mac

[randyshipp]

I'm intrigued by Roland Rich's method: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rolandrich ... otostream/

Thoughts?

[Robert of Canterbury]

I'm intrigued by Roland Rich's method: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rolandrich ... otostream/

Thoughts?

Works really Well. Works even better if you put the lacing cords through a pair of holes in the belt. it stops th etendency for the lacin gloops to slide towards your navel.

[Mac]

I'm intrigued by Roland Rich's method: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rolandrich ... otostream/

Thoughts?

I think that Roland would do well to make an actual casing at the top of his braes to accept the belt, and keep the fabric from slipping out from under. He could leave a couple of "pass throughs" for the points and the buckle. That seems to me to be more like what we are seeing in the late 13 and early 14th Cs.

Mac

[Robert of Canterbury]

One thing that leads me to favour braes without a casing is practicality.
I don't seem to suffer from my braes slipping out when I don't want them to, and, it makes sitting on the loo a much easier proposition.
Ease the braes out from the belt, drop them, take your ease, and then slip them back up under the belt. And throughout, your hose stay up, and do not fall into the muck. (Should there be any).

However, there are a pair of 14thC men's Braes (recently carbon dated) out of Lengberg Castle, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about them from the lead researcher on the case in October.
So, Watch this space.. http://www.medats.org.uk/events/

[Tracy Justus]

Really, surviving braies? I've seen pics of the string bikini bottom-type find, is that what they are saying is 14th c menswear? I'm soooo frustrated that MEDATS isn't publishing their procedings. I hope you go and are able to give us a report, Robert.

T.

[Robert of Canterbury]

I'm a moron.

Just re-checking my sources, I realise that the Underpants found at LengBerg are 15th C, (1440 ish).

I mis-read a reference to them as being 14C dated to be dated to the 14th C, rather than being Carbon 14 (14C) dated. - Traps for Amateurs.....

Still interesting. They are the string bikini bottom-type, and there is a write-up, in german, with a picture, here
http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/mita ... c-2010.pdf

As to medats Proceedings, We get caught on the Image rights and protecting as-yet unpublished material hook. Unfortunate, but it's the way it is.

[Tracy Justus]

I found this Italian fresco from 1369. It's in the Oratorio of St Stephen, Lentate sul Seveso. It looks to me like he's wearing a leather belt with a buckle is holding up his braies with ties for the hose attached to it with lark's head knots.

Tracy

[James B.]

Neat details on that painting.

[Mac]

I found this Italian fresco from 1369. It's in the Oratorio of St Stephen, Lentate sul Seveso. It looks to me like he's wearing a leather belt with a buckle is holding up his braies with ties for the hose attached to it with lark's head knots.

Tracy

Tracy,

It does look like that. It's strange, though, that the cords for the hosen emerge from the belt casing so close to the middle of his body. I would expect them farther out, over his hips. I wonder if we could be misunderstanding something about the cords. It's a shame there is a Saint's Haloed Head in the way. We might get some further clue if we could see more of his legs.

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

Mac,

Why do should be further out? I wear braes like these and they are the best ones I have ever had. If the opening is too wide the belt lets the braes fall out in moving, at least in those I have worn. Having them so you only have inches in the center for me has made my hose stay right where they should be, where as before they were always falling down.... especially when my hose gets really wet from heavy rains and caked with mud. We started putting holes in the braes around the leather belt inside the casing so it rests on leather when tied to the hose. So far the best I have worn but not sure about the holes. I might have ti try the ring/clasp system though.

RPM