braies question

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Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

The next thing I'd like to show is the work on Type V. These are legless braies, and seem to be divisible into a couple of subgroups. One of these groups (which I am tentatively calling V-a) is characterized by a "U" shaped pouch without much gathering at the top. The lower edges fall in a more or less straight line which is usually at or a bit above the lowest point of the package.

ImageImageImageImage Image

This is the pattern I have been working on for this sub-type. Since the edges of the pouch are very firmly outlined in art, I have put a pair of seams there to help that.

Image

The reconstructions show that I am getting reasonable results, and can probably get a bit closer by making the changes that I have noted on the pattern.

ImageImageImage


But, there is a problem. This pattern takes up a lot of fabric. Aside from outlining the pouch, my two front seams don't really get me much over some other cutting pattern. To show what I mean, here is a different pattern that will do just about the same thing with less waste of fabric. If you just move the seams around in your head, you can see that they are pretty much identical.

Image

The garment cut from that pattern looks like this. While not identical, they are similar enough that a bit of pattern tweaking would bring them together.

ImageImageImage

This all brings me to an idea. What if we break the pattern up into three pieces like I have done here in my notebook?

Image

This retains the pouch-defining seam lines, while slewing the whole thing around to the old patterning heritage. It would be fundamentally like the legless Type IVs, save that the pouch is wide at the top. I'm showing the butt seams as straight lines, because it simplifies the pattern and continues the established seam lines that define the pouch. This is a radical departure, but I think I need to pursue it.

Mac

edited to insert the forgotten notebook sketch :oops:
Last edited by Mac on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean Powell wrote:
Mac wrote:It turns out that you can sort of lay it out flat a couple of ways if you are willing to fold things a bit.

This way it looks a lot like those rude pewter badges.

Image Image

Mac
Potentially dumb question but the artist has gone through the trouble of depicting folds in the center region but a diagonal cross-hatching in the leg region. We know that the hosen were bias-cut. Is there any chance that the artist is depicting what the customer likely already knows: that the braise leg should ALSO be bias cut?

And would that change the way the material wrinkles or the seems pucker into the ass cheeks?

Sean
There may be some advantages to cutting the leg panels on the bias. One could leave the lower hems on the straight grain and get that crazy sweep that the artists sometimes show. On the other hand, it may well be more wasteful of fabric. I'm going to let this percolate for a while before I decide whether or not to try it. Meanwhile, perhaps someone else will pick up the torch and do me one better. :wink:

The thing about the pewter badges, though, is that the crosshatching may well be there for quite a different purpose than to inform us. It turns out that the hardest thing to cast is a flat smooth surface. The folks who made these badges knew that giving the molds some surface texture made the metal behave better. This is about giving the air a way to escape from under the advancing meniscus of incoming metal. The result is that they (and we) take any and all opportunities to give the mold some decoration. So, while it's tempting to think that they are telling us something about the grain direction, they may just have chosen diagonal (rather than orthogonal) hatching just because it is more commonly done in the craft.

Mac
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John Vernier
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Re: braies question

Post by John Vernier »

Thanks for the shout out, Mac! I would blush less about being called a genius, if I could well remember making that sketch I sent you. Still, I think I recognize my scrawl. And I do actually have the braies, which even fit, more-or-less.

Your idea of maintaining the old patterning heritage is something which really caught my interest when I worked on that pattern. The fact that certain artists clearly show seams suggesting a crotch strip and separate leg pieces, suggested the idea to me that most braies might have been constructed along those lines. I look forward to your progress on type V. I'd join you on that, but I have other sewing which has to get done first, and you seem to be on an excellent roll.

It does seem to me that the type IV braies show up mostly in Italian and Spanish pictures, while the type V braies are common in French and Netherlandish pictures. Are we seeing regional traditions? I should look a little harder to see if there is anything to that.
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

The eliptical gusset in John's pattern seems like it would lend itself to doubling that area for modesty and absorbency.
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Mac wrote:This brings us to another issue. If one is to try to support his hosen by tying them to his braies, the waistline of the braies must be up at the "blue jeans waist" and not at the "hiphugger waist". This is at odds with what we are seeing in the majority of underwear images from the turn of the Century. It also may require that the braies are supported by a belt in the casing, rather than a drawstring. Again, this feature seems to be pretty much gone by then.

Thoughts?

Mac
Mac, I am quoting an old post, but were you thinking of the period circa 1400 (ie. the turn from the 14th c to the 15th)? I would have thought that by then the fashionable men with high hemlines and scanty braies were wearing doublets, pourpoints, and jupons, while others were sticking to older solutions.

Image

The St. Sebastian in the Hours of Catherine of Cleeves (c. 1440) does not seem to have a problem suspending single-point hosen from low-slung breeches with a drawstring https://www.themorgan.org/collection/ho ... cleves/319 I have never tried that.

I agree that there was probably an awkward period when some guys wanted to wear hose with multiple points of support that covered their butt, but could not afford a structured jupon/pourpoint/doublet.

If we think that sometimes early breeches were just wrapped around a belt, so you could drop your breeches without unlacing your hose, maybe this belt turned into the belts you have been seeing and Bertus' lendenier? Something like that might be small and cheap enough to escape notice (although I am not so sure that most arming scenes leave out "and then he put on a special quilted belt ...").

I just had a look at the mid-to-late 15th c. ordinance about jacks for the Francs-archers, and it specifies that the chauses should be attached to the pourpoint without sleeves. Could that imply that some prosperous peasants were still using a belt that late?
Last edited by Sean M on Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

John Vernier wrote:Thanks for the shout out, Mac! I would blush less about being called a genius, if I could well remember making that sketch I sent you. Still, I think I recognize my scrawl. And I do actually have the braies, which even fit, more-or-less.
I call them as I see them. :wink:
John Vernier wrote:Your idea of maintaining the old patterning heritage is something which really caught my interest when I worked on that pattern. The fact that certain artists clearly show seams suggesting a crotch strip and separate leg pieces, suggested the idea to me that most braies might have been constructed along those lines.
I have been resisting this idea, but it looks like the evidences is against me, so I'm trying to embrace it and see where it leads.
John Vernier wrote: I look forward to your progress on type V. I'd join you on that, but I have other sewing which has to get done first, and you seem to be on an excellent roll.
I hope you find the time to dabble a bit in braies. My "excellent roll" is losing momentum.
John Vernier wrote:It does seem to me that the type IV braies show up mostly in Italian and Spanish pictures, while the type V braies are common in French and Netherlandish pictures. Are we seeing regional traditions?
That's the impression I have been getting, but I haven't really pursued it.
John Vernier wrote:I should look a little harder to see if there is anything to that.
Please do; and tell us what you find.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

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Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:
Mac wrote:This brings us to another issue. If one is to try to support his hosen by tying them to his braies, the waistline of the braies must be up at the "blue jeans waist" and not at the "hiphugger waist". This is at odds with what we are seeing in the majority of underwear images from the turn of the Century. It also may require that the braies are supported by a belt in the casing, rather than a drawstring. Again, this feature seems to be pretty much gone by then.

Thoughts?

Mac
Mac, I am quoting an old post, but were you thinking of the period circa 1400 (ie. the turn from the 14th c to the 15th)? I would have thought that by then the fashionable men with high hemlines and scanty braies were wearing doublets, pourpoints, and jupons, while others were sticking to older solutions.
By 1400, anybody who's anybody is supporting their (butt covering, probably split) hosen from a doublet or other such garment. The question is about guys who are further down the scale. Their garments don't seem up to the task, and I am left to conclude that they must be using some sort of belt.
Sean M wrote: Image

The St. Sebastian in the Hours of Catherine of Cleeves (c. 1440) does not seem to have a problem suspending single-point hosen from low-slung breeches with a drawstring https://www.themorgan.org/collection/ho ... cleves/319 I have never tried that.
The Cathrine of Cleeves St Sebastian image is a vexing thing. It's the clearest image I know of where a 15th C guy has single point hosen. It's also the only example I know of where hosen are supported by braies that are clearly held with a drawstring.

I have tried this, and found it very uncomfortable. The drawstring is too thin to support the hosen without digging in and slipping down. Were it not for this illustration, I would say that braies with a belt are the only way to support them. I am as a loss to explain what we see here without playing the "artist depicts an earlier style" card.... and I hate to play that card when dealing with a subject where we have so little real evidence.

Sean M wrote:If we think that sometimes early breeches were just wrapped around a belt, so you could drop your breeches without unlacing your hose, maybe this belt turned into the belts you have been seeing and Bertus' lendenier? Something like that might be small and cheap enough to escape notice (although I am not so sure that most arming scenes leave out "and then he put on a special quilted belt ...").
I think that there is tantalizing evidence of a belt worn above the braies to support hosen. There are a couple of examples back in that earlier post.

However... I feel compelled to address the question of whether braies were ever just wrapped around a belt. I have not seen any evidence for it. I know.. there are some modern reenactors who say is works, but that's not what we are seeing in art.

None of these guys show any sign that the belt is not pulled down along with the braies.
ImageImage Image


In fact, we can even see Saul's belt through one of the casing slits.
Image

Ditto for this unfortunate hemorrhoid patient.
Image

...and the vile fellow on the left.
Image

So far as I can tell, when these Type I braies went down, so did the belt and the hosen it supported.
Sean M wrote:I just had a look at the mid-to-late 15th c. ordinance about jacks for the Francs-archers, and it specifies that the chauses should be attached to the pourpoint without sleeves. Could that imply that some prosperous peasants were still using a belt that late?
Perhaps... unless it is meant to distinguish from pourpoints with sleeves.

[edited for grammar]

Mac
Last edited by Mac on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert MacPherson

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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Mac wrote:However... I feel compelled to address the question of whether braies were ever just wrapped around a belt. I have not seen any evidence for it. I know.. there are some modern reenactors that say is works, but that's not what we are seeing in art.
...
So far as I can tell, when these Type I braies went down, so did the belt and the hosen it supported.
Ok, I may have been misremembering some old threads. I don't really know anything about braies outside my period 1360-1410. Designing even one type was more than enough work for me.
Mac wrote:
Sean M wrote:I just had a look at the mid-to-late 15th c. ordinance about jacks for the Francs-archers, and it specifies that the chauses should be attached to the pourpoint without sleeves. Could that imply that some prosperous peasants were still using a belt that late?
Perhaps... unless it is meant to distinguish from pourpoints with sleeves.

Mac
I agree, he could be trying to make clear that you attach the chauses to the pourpoint of two linens, not to the jack of 25 or 30.

I am working on a translation of that text, now that I have the French text. I disagree with some points in the one which used to be on James Barker's site.
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Yesterday, I made up a pattern based on the idea of a three piece version of the Type V-A, like I sketched out in my notebook.

Image

It worked out OK, but there were some diagonal wrinkles on either side of the pouch.

ImageImageImage

I also thought that the crotch panel needed to be a bit wider as it passed between the legs, so as to give the pouch some more volume and increase the security when my legs were apart. That seems to be a thing... If the pouch is to be formed by an essentially flat panel, it needs to be at least as wide as the distance between the legs when they are well apart. In addition to that, I wanted to try to to get more compound curvature between the pouch and the vestigial legs of the garment.

To these ends, I made up a new pattern. The crotch panel is wider between the legs, but then tapers off like the previous pattern. The front of the "legs" has been curved a bit to create a bit of saddle shape. The front seam line is curved as well to try to take up those wrinkles.

Image

I started the new braies last night, but didn't get a chance to finish them till this afternoon. They are an improvement, but there is still a ways to go.

ImageImageImage

Comparing the front views of MK2.0 and Mk2.1, we see that I have managed to reduce the diagonal wrinkles but not eliminate them. This suggests that I'm on the right track, but need to do more of the same sort of changes to the pattern.

ImageImage

Tomorrow, I hope to have a greatly improved version to show.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

It looks like I got a bit ahead of myself with yesterday's post. I had not included the notebook sketch that I referred to, so I have gone back and edited it in.

I have also neglected to talk about how I have introduced the changes in two steps. As we can see from the notebook sketch, I was thinking about changing the shape of the seam line on the leg/hip panel while I was still working with the "T" shaped pattern. I ended up not incorporating that in the first version of the three piece pattern so as to not make too many changes at once. Well..... it looks like I could have done both of those things at the same time and saved myself an iteration, but if it had failed, it would have been harder to pin the blame.

Here is the notebook again so you don't have to look back to see what I'm talking about.

Image

The plan is to make that curve more radical on the next version.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

This morning, I made some changes to the previous pattern by applying some more of the same corrections. I increased the width of the crotch panel a bit in the middle, and increased the curve and "sweep" of the front seam edge.

Image

The results were pretty encouraging. There is not a nice flat area up near the drawstring, and the wrinkles have been reduced in size and extent. They now exist mostly in the region between 1 1/2" to 5" from the top. Increasing the curvature of the seam line a bit more between those points should more or less remove them .

ImageImageImage

The subtle thing that's happening here is the creation of compound curvature. There's now a significant saddle shape in the front of the crotch which we can see when we try to lay the garment out flat. The two images below are of the Mk2.0 and the Mk2.2. This shaping helps the seam line to bear tension, and more readily define the edge of the pouch. This yields more pouch security as well as better freedom of leg movement.

ImageImage

I'm hoping that the next iteration will pretty much set this pattern, and I can move on to another type.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Yesterday's pattern is only slightly different from the one that precedes it. There is a slightly deeper curve in the front seam, and I have cut the leg a bit higher in back. You may notice that I have put two different grain direction notations on it. More about that later....

Image

The results are OK. The diagonal wrinkles are pretty much worked out, and we are beginning to see some of the horizontal wrinkles that show up in the art. I feel as though I have gotten about as much out of this pattern as I can.

ImageImageImage

But, still... there are some nagging doubts. As I was cutting the garment out, I thought again about the whole issue of bias cut. I wondered if that was the secrete to getting those coveted horizontal wrinkles. So, I cut another one on the bias to see what happens.



ImageImageImage

The fit is similar, but much looser, and there was a return of some diagonal wrinkles. So... I thought I would just make it all tighter. At first I used pins, and pinched up about 3/4" on each hip. For the photos, I went back and sewed up those pinches. In all, I have sewn up a total of 3" of circumference.

ImageImageImage

The resulting garment has a rather different look. It's not as tall, by nearly an inch. In spite of the greater tension through the hips, though, the leg motion is still a bit freer than it is in the straight grain version. This is tantalizing, but I'm still not seeing the horizontal wrinkles that I had hoped for. I was hoping (and fearing) that the change to bias grain might be just what I had been missing, but I'm not convinced. I think I need to make up one more of these, and put the crotch panel on the bias as well, and see if that changes anything.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean Powell »

I wouldn't give up hope on the wrinkles. In quite a few mundane clothes the fabric is straight when just put on. A day of physical labor however causes certain areas to get wrinkly and stretched. That's even true in soft office environments although it tends to happen at elbow, arm-pit and other joints. It may simply be that the braise need time being worn under hose to acquire their wrinkles.

Sean
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean Powell wrote:I wouldn't give up hope on the wrinkles. In quite a few mundane clothes the fabric is straight when just put on. A day of physical labor however causes certain areas to get wrinkly and stretched. That's even true in soft office environments although it tends to happen at elbow, arm-pit and other joints. It may simply be that the braise need time being worn under hose to acquire their wrinkles.

Sean
I have found that the right wrinkles begin to appear if I wear them for a bit. It may also help to have them in linen. I've been reluctant to spend any linen on prototyping, but I may have to do that to see what difference it makes.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

I agree that it might be worth seeing how these stretch after a few hours. It is hard, because cheap modern linen or muslin probably stretches differently than most medieval linen (and I don't think we know what they used for the drawstring, do we?)

I will be applying for teaching jobs in the next few years, so a stint as an underwear model would be a bad idea. I tip my hat to Mac and to the women experimenting with Lengberg bra-shirts and Bohemian Bathhouse Shifts!
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:and I don't think we know what they used for the drawstring, do we?
That's an interesting question. The images are not detailed enough to get much of a clue. I sometimes think that what I am seeing is round in section, but I balk a bit at that. My experience with round laces is that they do not tie well.

Whatever they were using, it must have held a knot better than the synthetic sneaker lace I am using. It slips too easily. :oops:

It's clear that the most common knot is a just a single overhand with one end slipped in a bow. I usually use two bows, because I'm lazy, and don't want to take the time to adjust the lengths so that they come out even.
Sean M wrote:I will be applying for teaching jobs in the next few years, so a stint as an underwear model would be a bad idea.
Indeed!
Sean M wrote: I tip my hat to Mac and to the women experimenting with Lengberg bra-shirts and Bohemian Bathhouse Shifts!
Thank you! I hope my work will have a positive impact on medieval costuming, but I have to admit that I'm not seeing as much interest as I had hoped.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Some of the earliest work on this campaign of underwear research was on the legless TypeV. At the time, I presumed that all TypVs were legless, but I have reconsidered that in light of the TypeIV. It seems like my category TypeV may include two different constructions, and thus is not a true type. This must lead to a restructuring of the system.... but not today.



The legless Type Vs I worked on at the beginning of September are based on this layout. Obviously, one could work with smaller pieces of fabric by making there be a seam across the crotch, but that will be left as an exercise for the tailor. :wink:

Image

In art, this type is characterized by the sweep of diagonal wrinkles the define the upper corners of the package. This contrasts with the "U" shape of the ones I showed above.

Image

I only made one pair in this series, but I clearly need to return to it and tighten up the sides a bit. Making the crotch a bit wider might not be a bad idea as well. That would make the pouch a bit more generous.

ImageImageImage

The thing that strikes me about these braies is that they are extremely simple to pattern and make. They are comfortable, and the leg movement is very free. If you are doing the mid to late 15th C, you pretty much can't go wrong with these.

Here are some more examples from art.

ImageImageImage


This brings us to the more abbreviated variant of the legless Type V.

In art, these have an teardrop shaped package whose upper end is strongly pursed by the drawstring. The tension of the pursing leads to diagonal wrinkles which lead from the knot, downward toward the hips.

Image

My first attempt was a made by simply removing material from the hips of the template I showed above.

Image

The drawstring crosses itself in the front of the casing, as usual, but the ends emerge farther apart. This produces the pursing as well as drawing the garment tighter around the hips. This example shows very well how the drawstring crosses, as well as showing what the braies look like untied.

Image

Me first attempt worked OK. Again, a slightly wider crotch would be an improvement. I might also add a bit of width to the lower butt so as to not show so much gluteal fold.

ImageImageImage

While this first attempt worked OK, I still did not get the sort of brevity and package isolation we see in some art.

ImageImageImageImage

...so, I tried again with even less fabric.

ImageImageImage

Now, we're getting somewhere! When making these "extreme" legless Type Vs, I found that difference between the stretch of the fabric along vs. across the grain made a difference. My muslin stretches a bit more across the grain, so that had to be the horizontal direction. This probably means that I have them too tight at the sides, and should get rid of "straight up and down" side seams in favor of something that is a bit wider at the leg than the hip... and perhaps a bit wider all around.

The pattern looks much like the previous one.

Image

I should make at least one test with the grain on the bias and see how that works. Or, perhaps someone else would like to try that and tell us how it goes.



Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean Powell »

Mac wrote: Thank you! I hope my work will have a positive impact on medieval costuming, but I have to admit that I'm not seeing as much interest as I had hoped.

Mac
I wouldn't loose hope. I just think you are ahead of the curve for research on a topic that only really dedicated reenactors are concerned with. The crowd LOVES to see people joust in armor. They aren't particularly interested in the arm gussets on the gambeson. They REALLY aren't interested in the seam locations of the under clothes being worn. What's on the top layer gets the main attention. And of those who are interested, few can dedicate the time to making multiple attempts at multiple styles each day.

I will say that I've shared this page with Liz and we WILL be working on new braise for my dress kit. I'll be honest though, I've yet to mentally connect each of the styles with specific years and nations. I get which style tends to go with split hosen rather than joined but the variation between styles 3-6 are more subtle. Are they national or chronological or social-status or all of the above?

Sean
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean Powell wrote: I wouldn't loose hope. I just think you are ahead of the curve for research on a topic that only really dedicated reenactors are concerned with.
Sometimes I think I'm cursed to be ahead of the curve. About 35 years ago, I tried to get people interested in figuring out how to make riveted mail, and met with a lot of incredulous apathy. "Why would you even want that?"

That was about the same time I devoted myself making armor that was based on real stuff. That's catching on a bit now too. :wink:
Sean Powell wrote: Are they national or chronological or social-status or all of the above?

Sean
The typology is more or less chronological. Coincidentally, it also goes from most fabric to least.

I started with the rather simplistic idea of grouping them by overall "look", but that turns out to be a lot like grouping the bats with the birds. My hope is to regroup them according to their basic cut.... if I can ascertain that.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean Powell wrote: I will say that I've shared this page with Liz and we WILL be working on new braise for my dress kit. I'll be honest though, I've yet to mentally connect each of the styles with specific years and nations. I get which style tends to go with split hosen rather than joined but the variation between styles 3-6 are more subtle.

Sean
The guiding rule is that one should not show any skin under normal circumstances. In practice, that means that if you are combining a short skirt with split hosen, you need braies with enough leg to stay tucked in.... but not so much leg that it makes your hosen look bad.

When and where are you costuming to?

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Mac, there is a version of your working version of type V in the Compagnie of St. George men's clothing guide. They lump all late 15th century drawstring breeches into one type, but it might be worth using a scrap of cotton to try their pattern once and see why they made some choices.

Even in the glory days of the Internet, the makers who liked talking about their work and what was wrong with it and what problems they did not know how to solve were a minority. These days I think we have to accept that things which get a lot of Internet Votes are not the ones which have the most impact when people get up from their computer and walk over to their workshop or their sewing room, and vice versa. It is a pain in the butt if you are not part of a big group which meets at least once a month and has someone else interested in whatever you are working on though :(
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:Mac, there is a version of your working version of type V in the Compagnie of St. George men's clothing guide. They lump all late 15th century drawstring breeches into one type, but it might be worth using a scrap of cotton to try their pattern once and see why they made some choices.
Thank you for reminding me of their guide. I had seen it before, but had not looked at it lately.

It looks like they are trying to get a bit more coverage out of a similar pattern to the one I used. I'll make one up, as you suggest, and see what happens.

The St. Geo. guide gathers up some really important images, but then seems to sort of stir them up and distill out a single pattern. The author knows that there's more going on than that, but is content to leave the subject and move on. I suppose that in a short guide, that's what's called for. I wonder if there are people within that group who have taken the subject further.
Sean M wrote:These days I think we have to accept that things which get a lot of Internet Votes are not the ones which have the most impact when people get up from their computer and walk over to their workshop or their sewing room, and vice versa.
I skimmed that article. What a depressingly true thing. This is why I'm not participating on FB. Very few of us are calm enough to be truly useful in that acrid atmosphere... and I'm not one of them.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

I just found this image on a Russian blog(?). Unfortunately, nothing in the text seems give any information about the reconstruction.

Image

There are three things that strike me here. The first is that it's an uncommonly good reconstruction. The second is that he is getting the right wrinkles. The third is that the hips are significantly looser than what I have been doing.

This last thing is perhaps the most important. My presumption was that a certain amount of tension was necessary to produce the wrinkles, but perhaps that is a wrong headed assumption. Perhaps one need only make the garment in linen, and if all else is correct, the wrinkles will form.

Now... that said, I am sure that the wrinkles in the image are somewhat "cultivated" but none the less, they are there, and the results look good.

That same page has these two tantalizing pattern images as well. The garment on the model might be made from this pattern, but I cant tell, and they don't say.

Image Image

There is mention of G. Embelton, but it seems to pertain to this image, which looks like it was lifted from the St George "Dragon" newsletter.

Image

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

I don't have any way to strip the image out of the St George PDF, so I blew it up to a convenient size on my monitor, and transferred the measurements to my notebook.

Image

There are lots of ways to scale a pattern up. I like to find a usable relationship between the two scales. In this case I started with the idea that 1 cm on the notebook sketch would equal 2" on the full size pattern.



My first attempt was based on the idea of scaling it up so that the hip measurement seemed good. This also gave me a reasonable fall measurement. Unfortunately, it did not yield enough circumference for the legs. So, I decided to try setting 1cm. equal to 2.25 inches. That gave a more reasonable leg circumference, but the waist has gotten pretty big. The two sets of lines on this piece of pattern paper show the two different scalings.

Image

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Here is what I get when I make up the braies from the Company of St. George guide.

ImageImageImage

On the plus side...
--The straight upper edge is easy to turn into the casing
--They come out of the fabric with little waste

On the minus....
--They are very baggy in front
--The waist circumference is very large.
--The tight corner in the leg hem is hard to turn and sew.
--The big, diagonal wrinkles that define the sides of pouch are treacherously slack. This can lead to the pouch capsizing.

In the series of pics above, I crossed the drawstring in front, in spite of how the St. Geo. guide shows them not crossing. If one does not cross them, the result looks like this.

Image

While crossing clearly makes the pouch look and work better, it takes up a lot of drawstring. I'm using 54" sneaker lace for my tests. This length works OK with all my other prototypes, but this garment has such a big waist that the cord ends get lost back in the casing if I don't knot them together when I take the braies off. While this seems like a small thing, it has ramifications. If one used a longer cord, the tied ends would be tremendously longer than we see in the iconography. If one used a short cord and tied some stopper knots on the ends, the braies could not be laid out flat when laundering and drying.

It looks to me like this pattern was an attempt to make the sort of braies which have that "straight across" look at the bottom. Unfortunately, they don't quite do it. While the leg hem is pretty flat, it is still significantly above the low point of the package. This is a thing I have been struggling with in my other prototypes as well. It seems like braies have to have some leg length in the crotch to get that effect, but that requires a different cut to achieve. It also makes them look taller on the sides unless they are worn precariously low. While that is clearly the case in some examples, there are others where the waist is at a more secure "blue jeans" height.

I sometimes think that the artists are deemphasizing the package to be "nice", but that's clearly not always the case. Another possibility is that the medieval tailor was managing to get more support than I have been able to achieve.

This is all more complicated than I had hoped.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Hi Mac,

well, if it were easy someone else would have already done it! I think you have made a pretty good case that there is more going on with the various mid-15th-century, brief-sized types than we thought, and that even in the early 14th century these may have had more than two pieces (or two per leg).

I think that the Compagnie wrote their guide to stop new members from emptying their wallets and filling their closets with Pakistan's finest medieval tailoring, so it had to be short and simple.

What do you think the Compagnie means with their cryptic comment that "the drawstring does not necessarily go around the waist"? They cite the triptych of the Resurrection by Hans Memling https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... A14986.jpg
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Sean M wrote:Hi Mac,

well, if it were easy someone else would have already done it! I think you have made a pretty good case that there is more going on with the various mid-15th-century, brief-sized types than we thought, and that even in the early 14th century these may have had more than two pieces (or two per leg).
It's turning out to be more complicated than I had believed. I still haven't moved on to Type III, where I expect to find even more trouble. The short legged, two piece pattern I presented long ago may or may not survive a thorough investigation of the Type.
Sean M wrote: I think that the Compagnie wrote their guide to stop new members from emptying their wallets and filling their closets with Pakistan's finest medieval tailoring, so it had to be short and simple.
Or, perhaps to keep them from just wearing their jockeys or y-fronts under their hosen. The presented pattern will work.. more of less, but it doesen't really accord well with the overall high quality of their group.
Sean M wrote: What do you think the Compagnie means with their cryptic comment that "the drawstring does not necessarily go around the waist"? They cite the triptych of the Resurrection by Hans Memling https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... A14986.jpg
The illustration which accompanies that note is a very nice detail of St Sebastian's braies. I have not been able to find one as clear :cry:

Image

We can see the drawstring clearly exiting the garment from a pair of eyelet holes several inches apart, and serving to gather up the top of the pouch. The author sees this as evidence that the drawstring exists only in the front of the garment, and does not go around the waist. While this is a possible explanation, it seems more likely to me that it is just showing that the drawstrings cross in the casing before emerging to be tied.

Now... that said, there is a detail that stands in favor of the St Geo author's interpretation and against mine. The eyelets are depicted below what I presume to be the drawstring casing. That's the sort of discrepancy we cold normally more or less gloss over... but this is Memling. When Memling takes the time to show a detail, we are ill advised to ignore it.

So, while I still favor my crossed strings explanation, I am keeping my mind open to other possibilities.

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Mac wrote:Or, perhaps to keep them from just wearing their jockeys or y-fronts under their hosen. The presented pattern will work.. more of less, but it doesen't really accord well with the overall high quality of their group.
I can't judge their clothing because its not my period, but they sure have a good reputation in general.

Their contact form does not work any more or I would try to get in touch. I wonder why they want doublets to be made of just two layers and covered with wool ... I see the occasional wool or worsted doublet in documents but I don't think it was the most common choice.
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Re: braies question

Post by Ernst »

Here's a no braies, point your hose to your shirt affair. BNF Français 143 fo. 148r, 1496-1498
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f299.item
BNF Français 143 fo. 148r.jpg
BNF Français 143 fo. 148r.jpg (25.58 KiB) Viewed 1667 times
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Re: braies question

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Ernst wrote:Here's a no braies, point your hose to your shirt affair. BNF Français 143 fo. 148r, 1496-1498
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f299.item
BNF Français 143 fo. 148r.jpg
These bare-assed fellows are very vexing. I'm never sure if the artist means it seriously or is poking fun at the rustic or laborer. These medieval folks has their "dank memes" as well.

I think that red garment is probably a doublet. Do you have reason to think not?

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Ernst »

The white shirt beneath the red doublet seems to have eyelets sewn at the hem.
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote:The white shirt beneath the red doublet seems to have eyelets sewn at the hem.
OK.... I see what you are looking at.. and it goes against my expectations. Do you know of any other examples like this?

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Ernst »

None at all. I just stumbled upon this manuscript today.
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Re: braies question

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote:None at all. I just stumbled upon this manuscript today.
I'm inclined to think that we are just reading something into a couple of little slips of the artist's brush.... but if we find more of these, I'll have to admit that it's "a thing"

I'll keep my eyes and mind open, and I'm sure you will too. :)

Mac
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Re: braies question

Post by Sean M »

Mac, is this painting by Domenico di Bartolo, Sienese (d. 1446) in your Pinterest? It shows breeches with an eliptical gusset between the legs.

Image
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