braies question

[James B.]

Oh nice Mac you can see a keeper on the belt too.


Here is a woodcut I saw at the National Gallery of Art a few years ago where St Sebastian's braies also have the open areas for point to come from but he also has a girdle in the loops instead of a drawstring:

[Tracy Justus]

You usually see braies on the thieves in crucifixion scenes. Somewhere I found a thief with strings fluttering form his braies, but of course I can't find the painting now. In Fra Angelico painting from 1441 you can see slits in the braies of both thieves at hipbone level. Likewise you can see slits on the braies on the right side thief by Vitale da Bologna, 1335. The apex of the hose may have looped through the slits over the waistband and been pinned to the hose or there may have been ties between the hose and the braies drawstring. As I recall Bockstenman had thongs of some sort tied around lumps in the upper thighs of each of his hose which (it is conjectured) somehow was used to hold them up.

Tracy

[Mac]

James,

That is definitely a belt in the "drawstring casing" of those breas. I wonder how common this was. It only works, of course, in breas with *big* casings. You see these pretty frequently in the early 14thC, but they become much less common by the end of the century. This pic looks like a wood cut, and must be from the middle of the 15thC., so it seems a bit retrospective. Perhaps St. Sebastian is being shown "in Grandpa's shorts" to give the viewer a sense of historical perspective. He was, after all, an ancient Roman.

Mac

[Mac]

Here is the St Sebastian from the Catherine of Cleves hours. (you have to go to the page and click about 6 pics forward)



His hosen appear to be tied to the waistband (drawstring, I think) of his breas.

Mac

[Edited in 2018 to reestablish image link]

[Klaus the Red]

I suspect that the earlier fashion of looser braes and single-leg chausses lingered well into the 15th century for working folks, alongside the haute couture of "speedo" braes and joined hose pointed to a doublet. I wonder if there's a discernible pattern for the depictions of historical/biblical characters in the same, and whether it's meant to convey classical dress as Mac suggests, or the economic origins of the person, or what. St. Sebastian was captain of the Praetorian Guard under Diocletian, so I doubt he would have been shown as a poor man. (It's worth noting that a certain carpenter was never, to my knowledge, depicted in braes- only a loose loincloth.)

It's worth a study. Maybe I will pursue it when the 12-day week is invented.

[Karen Larsdatter]

That is definitely a belt in the "drawstring casing" of those breas. I wonder how common this was.

Not that it's any indication of how common it really was, but it seems to have been common enough to have a term for it in Middle English - see http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med ... s=20330393

[Klaus the Red]

My favorite piece of JRR Tolkien trivia- there's a family of hobbits named Bracegirdle. I wonder what their ancestors did to get the name "underwear belt"?

[James B.]

Here is the St Sebastian from the Catherine of Cleves hours. (you have to go to the page and click about 6 pics forward)

http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/ss.php

His hosen appear to be tied to the waistband (drawstring, I think) of his breas.

Yes that being dated to 1440. I cannot tell what the hosen are tied to in the "hanged man" drawing by Pisanello 1430s; but they are also single front point hosen worn with a doublet. Seems clear that split hosen that cover the rear do not totally take over in the early 15th century.

My favorite piece of JRR Tolkien trivia- there's a family of hobbits named Bracegirdle. I wonder what their ancestors did to get the name "underwear belt"?

There is also a Bracegirdle in Horatio Hornblower. He is Lt. on the first ship he serves on and later returns as a captain.

[Mac]

James,

I had not realized that he did so many sketches of hanged man until I searched for them. In this sketch, , the man on the left is wearing hosen just as you say. The guy on the right, however has hosen more like you might expect for the time. They would normally cover his butt, but they have been untied behind.

It's less clear what is going on with this fellow. There is extra fabric over his left buttock, but it doesn't have the characteristic shape of hosen that reach the center line. His right hose looks even more like a "single pointer".

In this detail from the St George painting, http://www.art.com/products/p14178300-s ... d=15058133&
you can see quite clearly that the hosen on the guy on the left would meet in the center. The ones on the right hand guy are less easy to interpret.

As an aside; you can clearly see here that the hanged men have there upper arms bound, as well as their wrists. This is a source of some ambiguity in interpreting the arms of the doublets in the sketches.

Mac

[James B.]

Mac

Looks like to me the fellow in the last sketch and on the right in the painting have some sort of single point on the side hosen design versus being in the front like earlier designs. They appear in both to lace into the side of the doublet.

[Mac]

It is surprising to think that "one pointers" were being used with doublets, but I don't think Pisanello would mislead us here.

Incidentally; the hosen of the hanged men in the detail from the St George have leather (?) soles. This is one of those places where we get to see something we normally can not.

Mac

[James B.]

Incidentally; the hosen of the hanged men in the detail from the St George have leather (?) soles.

Don't think I didn't make note of that; I am writing some documentation on early 15th century clothing and I am talking about the footed hosen tend in that period. That is why I recently spotted these images of single point hosen going that late into the 15th century.

[Klaus the Red]

From experience, I can assure you it's harder work to make a pair of joined hosen that fit properly compared to a pair of single-leg chausses of any length. I suggest that when they first arrived on the scene, fully joined hosen complete with codpiece, etc. were probably more expensive as well as being cutting-edge fashion more confined to the aristocracy, and that working men were perfectly happy with unjoined chausses and exposed braes until the fashion became more universal across the classes.

[Lucian Ro]

As an aside; many guys who are doing the divided hosen of the mid to late 14th C make them *way* to short. This is one of the identifying characteristics of what I call the "Planet -14th-Century" look.

This is a topic that Tasha and I discussed at length last Pennsic.

I also personally wear a girdle belt to attach my hosen to. Love it. I initially attached them to my drawstring braies and I encounter all the above concerns. So frustrating.
I like the ring brooches idea Mac provides and I may have to appropriate the idea.

[Klaus the Red]

It is surprising to think that "one pointers" were being used with doublets, but I don't think Pisanello would mislead us here.

A single point of attachment at the hip, on chausses that go all the way up to the crotch, works much better with a doublet than the earlier-style short chausses that leave the butt exposed and point only in front. This latter combination seems to be the more prevalent mistake in the SCA.

[Lucian Ro]

A single point of attachment at the hip, on chausses that go all the way up to the crotch, works much better with a doublet than the earlier-style short chausses that leave the butt exposed and point only in front. This latter combination seems to be the more prevalent mistake in the SCA.

Exactly

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Its interesting to note that there is an apparent correlation between the height and attachment point of chausses, and also of cuisses. Lower and to the front, moving higher and to the side of the hip, as time progresses.

[Mac]

This latter combination seems to be the more prevalent mistake in the SCA.

This is one of the distinguishing characteristics of the clothing from "Planet Fourteenth Century". It's also characteristic to wear long baggy breas with a short, butt revealing outer garment. A coif helps to complete the ensemble.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Indeed. When you see braes in later century art--for example, the sword-and-buckler sparring partners in the Tacuinum Sanitatis--the braes are rather like boxer briefs, and quite tight, maybe bias-cut. Unfortunately, no one sells those off-the-peg that I'm aware of. Most of our, ahem, more generously proportioned comrades opt for the big 13th century braes for comfort, which are totally inappropriate for a doublet and tight hose.

[James B.]

Indeed. When you see braes in later century art--for example, the sword-and-buckler sparring partners in the Tacuinum Sanitatis--the braes are rather like boxer briefs, and quite tight, maybe bias-cut. Unfortunately, no one sells those off-the-peg that I'm aware of. Most of our, ahem, more generously proportioned comrades opt for the big 13th century braes for comfort, which are totally inappropriate for a doublet and tight hose.

I would say you are correct that the giant 13th century style of braies with the large rolled waist are gone but if you look at the wood cut I posted from 1410 above or the art Tracy posted the braies there are from the 15th century are not super tight fitted or short legged. Clearly there is gather in the waist when tied/belted shut.

I am working on a project with some folks on early 15th century clothing and there is quite a verity in clothing in that era including braies.

One think I have noted about the smaller tighter braies is that they have a side slit on the thigh in some art; it should also be noted that there are a number of depictions of "split hosen" that have a lining in the seat and down the thigh a short ways; this figure from the Devonshire hunting tapestries (1425-1430) for instance:

http://www.lordgreys.org/temp/Early%201 ... 5/1425.jpg

and this figure from around 1460:

http://www.lordgreys.org/temp/Early%201 ... c_Hose.jpg

[Mac]

Here's a nice selection of early 15th c men's undies. Two of them have the leg slits that James mentioned.
It is the St Acacius pic from the Carherine of Cleves hours.
I had previously believed that the slit was necessary for tight breas with deeper legs. Here, however, there seems to be no correlation between the length of the garment's leg, and the presence of absence of the slit. I'm now inclined to think it is more a mater of personal taste than functional necessity.

Mac

[James B.]

Nice one Mac, you can clearly see side seams too which will change my pattern making.

On dating isn't the Carherine of Cleves hours dated to 1440?

[Mac]

Klaus,

I have never found bias cutting necessary for tight breas. I cut mine on straight grain, and they wrinkle the same way are the ones in period pics. If there is any interest, I could post my patterns, and perhaps a couple of pics that show the fit.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

James, no argument from me- I think we have plenty of evidence of different styles of braes being used well into the 15th century. One just needs to combine the right braes with the right chausses to look accurate. There would certainly be no need for the working class to buy tight-fitting braes to go with everyday split chausses, and fashionable men with the tighter chausses or joined hosen would certainly not want to wear braes with more fabric than necessary underneath. (Two words: panty lines!)

Side note- a lining at the top of split chausses also helps prevent the bias-cut wool from stretching out of shape.

[Mac]

On dating isn't the Carherine of Cleves hours dated to 1440?

Thereabouts. I'm saying "early", rather than "mid" century because the guys depicted are historical, and I think that probably biases the the way the artist depicts their clothes. No guaranties, of course, but by 1440, the fashionistas had been wearing "bikini briefs" for over thirty years. They are depicted in Keyser's bellifortis in 1405.


Mac

[Mac]

(Two words: panty lines!)

Word!

Side note- a lining at the top of split chausses also helps prevent the bias-cut wool from stretching out of shape.

Klaus,

That presumes that the lining is not bias cut.

I wonder if the linings was not there to protect the show fabric from sweat stains.

Here, John's executioner's hosen show a bit of the lining at the bottom of the roll.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Mac, the pattern would be very helpful. Still, looking at this example I mentioned-

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/TI4 ... 506170.jpg

-it's hard to see any wrinkles at all in the legs and seat. There is, of course, no way to tell how accurate the artist was, let alone whether the braes depicted are supposed to be bias-cut or not. Good tailoring can work just as well.

[James B.]

Linings would also strengthen area with points in them. The St Johns painting does not seem to have a large lining at all, maybe just the waist band.

[Klaus the Red]

That presumes that the lining is not bias cut.

Perhaps, but I've found that a second layer of fabric still helps the thing keep its shape better than a single layer, regardless of cut. The critical part is the top of the leg. I think I'm seeing a facing strip of a different color at the top of the executioner's chausses.

Simultaneous observation/post with James.

[Klaus the Red]

but by 1440, the fashionistas had been wearing "bikini briefs" for over thirty years. They are depicted in Keyser's bellifortis in 1405.

I saw recently a line drawing of a man wearing briefs even skimpier than those- almost a thong- and tied likewise at one hip, dated to somewhere between 1370-1390, but now I'm damned if I can find it.

[James B.]

Here is a late 15th c pair of bikini style braies. http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/inst ... c-2010.pdf

[Mac]

Mac, the pattern would be very helpful. Still, looking at this example I mentioned-

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/TI4 ... 506170.jpg

-it's hard to see any wrinkles at all in the legs and seat. There is, of course, no way to tell how accurate the artist was, let alone whether the braes depicted are supposed to be bias-cut or not. Good tailoring can work just as well.

There are two sets of wrinkles that are important.

The first are the ones at the drawstring in the center front. These are about gathering up the top of the pouch. Making the drawstrings cross inside the casing and emerge a couple of inches apart helps a lot here.

The second are the ones that lead from the crotch, diagonally toward the superior anterior iliac spines. These provide the tension that keeps the pouch well defined. Without this tension, the pouch is liable to capsize and spill its contents.

The pic you linked to shows the second set as a single line. (look closely)

The first set would be obscured by the doublet.

I'll try to put my patterns up in the next couple of days.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Mac, my thoughts about the material being on the bias stem mostly from the tight fit of the leg tubes. If one tries to cut straight-grain linen with so little ease, one runs the risk of having it be uncomfortably tight or ripping out when sitting. Still, this is all theoretical. Making a pair of bias-cut braes is on my long list of projects, just as soon as the 36-hour day is enacted...

James- thanks for the article! I will translate the text when I am not in a rush to get stuff done and get to work. You never know what'll turn up under someone's floorboards.

[Michiel van Ravenstein]

I dig this thread! I am curious to try a breech girdle at some point. Does it hold the braies up through simple friction and tying the point over the top of the girdle? The woodcut of St. Sebastian that James B. posted looked like there there might be loops from the braies tied around the girdle.

I'm working on escaping Planet 14th Century myself . As I am more mid-century, adding a longer-hemmed bocksten tunic at Lilies War finally made me feel less 'exposed'. I still have the problem of my braies popping out of the tops of my hose occasionally. The braies are a little on the shorter side, but not truly fitted. The hose are a few inches below the crotch, so maybe on my next iteration I'll get it right.

[James B.]

There is a piece of an extant braies girdle in the Museum of London collection, I believe if is a wide girdle with 4 sets of holes and a leather thong threaded through the holes that was attached to a ring broach. You could adjust the length of the leather thong to tighten the hold on the hosen that way.