Rectangular tent...a work in progress.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Great stuff. You really should get a scale figure and make a kit for it as well.

[Mac]

So....I disassembled everything and sewed on some sleeves behind the valances for the stiffeners to go into. The guys are hooked to the lower edges of the sleeves. The loops for the walls were in the way, and had to be removed. I also took this opportunity to make new stiffeners.

I tried using loops of cord, rather than sleeves to support the stiffeners, but there was an issue. Sliding the stiffeners in and out of a series of loops was quite difficult. The loops tended to bind on the wood like a sort of "Chinese finger trap". I figured that if this was tedious an 1/6 scale it would be intolerable at full scale.



I had to remove all of the loops that supported the walls in order to sew on the sleeves.





Now, I am going to take it down again, and sew in new loops for the walls. Perhaps I will have those under control sometime tomorrow.

Mac

[Mac]

I finished sewing in the loops for the walls, and set the canopy back up. I'll put the walls back on and get some pics tomorrow.

Mac

[Aussie Yeoman]

And some scans/images of the works you're using for inspiration.

Maybe if your model only had a simple Landsknecht armour or almain rivet.

Dave

[Sean Powell]

The sleeves with the lower anchor point just seems 'right' somehow from a force transfer standpoint. It also means the ropes naturally want to exit below the valence which is seen in so many illuminations. I think you are really on to something here.

Curiosity question: How are you tying your ropes to make the crows-foot? I found instruction in a book (can not find online) for a hauling bend. It's a modified sheet bend but the 3 trailing lines all exit on one side. It is supposedly used for dragging multiple objects (or maybe a fishing net) without the knot getting caught on things. I was curious what other people were using.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... 174250.jpg

Sean

[Tracy Justus]

Are you still getting the horizontal deflection problem you wrote about on Thursday, or has the sleeve system solved that issue?

T.

[Mac]

Here are today's updates.

The loop sewing went smoothly last night. I searched until I found the attachments for the Kenmore machine, and found that the zipper foot made things a lot easier.



Here is what the corners look like with the valance turned up. On my first set of stiffeners, I did not consider which of the members should have two fingers and which should have one. The better arrangement gives the long members two finger. This helps to keep it from twisting. Note that in addition to the loop, there is a single cord attached to the inside of the corner seam. This cord laces the joint together. I have left the end dangling, but in in the full scale it would be tied off and tucked into one of the sleeves. I'm pretty pleased with the corners, but I might extent the sleeves a bit more, so as to leave less exposed and unsupported on the full scale version.



This tent modeling is not all glamor! Hooking the walls on is a tedious thing. I suspect that this will be a lot easier and more dignified in full scale.



I will leave it under tension for a few days while I evaluate what I have, and think about changes.

there is still the deflection issue to deal with. A cross member or two should fix that.



As a sort of an aside: Leonardo shows some sort of cross members in his famous parachute sketch. Here, he was probably worried more about the sides bowing out than in, so I suspect he envisioned ropes.

I consider this significant because Leonardo says....."Se un uomo ha un padiglione di pannolino intasato che sia di 12 braccia per faccia e alto 12, potrà gittarsi d'ogni grande altezza senza danno di se"

or..."If a man has a canopy of sealed cloth, which is 12 cubits on a side and 12 tall, he will be able to cast himself down from any great height without injury to himself"

He uses the word "padiglione", which probably means a bed canopy, but the similarity between bed canopies and tent canopies is obvious.



Although it is hard to photograph, there is a tendency for the central wall loop to pucker the canopy. this is because the stiffener sleeves do not expend to support the center. I leave the stiffeners exposed here to allow access to the joint. I do not know if this is a problem or not.



The placement of the seams on the ends is not as nice as I would like. I am thinking about two more gores in the gable, and perhaps making the seems of the end wall radiate from a central gore. this would allow the upper and lower seems to line up more aesthetically. This will make a difference when the arcading is painted on.



Mac

[Mac]

The sleeves with the lower anchor point just seems 'right' somehow from a force transfer standpoint. It also means the ropes naturally want to exit below the valence which is seen in so many illuminations. I think you are really on to something here.

I feel pretty good about it as well.

Curiosity question: How are you tying your ropes to make the crows-foot? I found instruction in a book (can not find online) for a hauling bend. It's a modified sheet bend but the 3 trailing lines all exit on one side. It is supposedly used for dragging multiple objects (or maybe a fishing net) without the knot getting caught on things. I was curious what other people were using.

I am just laying all three cords up in an overhand knot. That's sort of barbarous, but it seems to do the job. My old tent ropes have been like that for over 15 years.

Mac

[Mac]

Are you still getting the horizontal deflection problem you wrote about on Thursday, or has the sleeve system solved that issue?

T.

It is still an issue (see above). One of the reasons I left the stiffeners exposed in the middles is to help facilitate attaching a cross member. I'm still not sure how I am going to do it yet though.....

Mac

[Mac]

Great stuff. You really should get a scale figure and make a kit for it as well.

Thank you, Fearghus!

Why is everyone trying to tempt me into doing that?!?!??.......

Mac

[Galleron]

Here are today's updates.

Although it is hard to photograph, there is a tendency for the central wall loop to pucker the canopy. this is because the stiffener sleeves do not expend to support the center. I leave the stiffeners exposed here to allow access to the joint. I do not know if this is a problem or not.





Mac

You could use one or two laces at that point to put tension on the canopy similar to that provided by the sleeve elsewhere.

[Chris Gilman]

Great stuff. You really should get a scale figure and make a kit for it as well.

Thank you, Fearghus!

Why is everyone trying to tempt me into doing that?!?!??.......

Mac

Great stuff.
Mac, I would be happy to loan you one of the knight lighters, they look to be the correct scale.

[Mac]

Great stuff.
Mac, I would be happy to loan you one of the knight lighters, they look to be the correct scale.

Thank you, Chris! I'm not sure a knight-lighter would be good until I make the miniature fire extinguisher.

Mac

[Chris Gilman]

I had considered the consequences, but
I figured it added a bit of danger to what seemed a pretty safe project.
Pia & I just finished a very nice stewet beef cooked in pipkins of my hand on a brazier of my hand. This with Owain Phyfe playing in the background made me wish for a full size version of you endeavor pitched on a grassy hill near a wood.
This dinner is practice for perhaps a fine dinner at Pennsic.

[Sean Powell]

You could use one or two laces at that point to put tension on the canopy similar to that provided by the sleeve elsewhere.

Or not have a rope point directly in line with the splice joint / sleeve gap. Ove the sleeve gap 12" and have a 5' and 7' beam instead of 6' and 6'. Or keep the splice and sleeve in the same location and space the ropes so there is no central anchor point that overlaps.

I need to do some tent work tomorrow myself but it is full-scale. I'll photograph the knot I used and draw a quick picture. No idea if it is historically accurate as a knot but it looks good.

Sean

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The Siege of Florence has quite a number of different styles of tents&pavilions, everything from pup tents to full sized pavillions.

It even has "market stall/portable garages".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rence1.jpg

[Mac]

In re Aussie Dave's repeated and reasonable requests.

Here is a link to an my album of pics of rectangular tents. I began posting them individually, but it quickly got ridiculous.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1074249789 ... directlink

Rectangular tents are a long lived form. They appear at least as early as the mid 14th C



They were still being used at least as late as the mid 16th.



I am not working from any one in particular, but rather trying to make a plausible tent that fits my requirements and looks the part. This is not a very "hard edged" approach, but I am still groping with the whole idea, and think it better to try to come to grips with the gestalt.



Mac

[Mac]

This is a page from my notebook concerning some possible treatments of the seams of the gable and end-wall.




The upper left is a possibility. It makes extremely good use of the fabric, and can be supported by pictorial evidence.



It is also common for the gable to have radiating gores. I think these make a more attractive foundation for the arcading.








The one on the *lower left* is how I built the model. It was a mistake; predicated scant information and promulgated by haste. It would work....but the seams don't line up nicely from the gable to the end-wall. I am rejecting it.

In the *upper center* sketch, I drew the end-wall panels parallel sided, and of the standard width used throughout the tent. The expansion was to be achieved by tapered panels in the center. The expansions of the ends of the 17th C tent in Graz are done this way. The note underneath shows two possible ways of handling the parallel sided panels. the one is the simply cut the upper and lower edges at an angle. The other is to leave them on the weft, and pull the entire panel out of square. I don' know it this will work on canvas, but it strikes me as a good way to do it if it works.

The down side of the upper center sketch is that the seams do not line up nicely. Thus I am rejecting it.

The *lower center* sketch shows the same treatment of the expansion of the end-walls, but with at reduced number of the gores in the gable. This makes outer seams line up nicely but the center seam of the end-wall has no counterpart in the gable. I think this is structurally fine, but it does not accord well with what I hope to do with the arcading. I reject it as well.

The *upper right* sketch has all of the panels of the end-wall tapering. This is more work than using straight sided panels, but it is both structurally sound and aesthetically pleasing. It pains me some to abandon the known tailoring of the Graz tent, but that tent never had decorative arcading. This is the scheme that I currently plan to do on the full scale tent.

Mac

[Galleron]

Would one or two ropes or light chains running taught from the bottom of one long side stiffener to the other solve the deflection problem? Also, they would be handy for tent dividers and hanging things.

[Galleron]

This is a page from my notebook concerning some possible treatments of the seams of the gable and end-wall.




The upper left is a possibility. It makes extremely good use of the fabric, and can be supported by pictorial evidence.



It is also common for the gable to have radiating gores. I think these make a more attractive foundation for the arcading.








The one on the *lower left* is how I built the model. It was a mistake; predicated scant information and promulgated by haste. It would work....but the seams don't line up nicely from the gable to the end-wall. I am rejecting it.

In the *upper center* sketch, I drew the end-wall panels parallel sided, and of the standard width used throughout the tent. The expansion was to be achieved by tapered panels in the center. The expansions of the ends of the 17th C tent in Graz are done this way. The note underneath shows two possible ways of handling the parallel sided panels. the one is the simply cut the upper and lower edges at an angle. The other is to leave them on the weft, and pull the entire panel out of square. I don' know it this will work on canvas, but it strikes me as a good way to do it if it works.

The down side of the upper center sketch is that the seams do not line up nicely. Thus I am rejecting it.

The *lower center* sketch shows the same treatment of the expansion of the end-walls, but with at reduced number of the gores in the gable. This makes outer seams line up nicely but the center seam of the end-wall has no counterpart in the gable. I think this is structurally fine, but it does not accord well with what I hope to do with the arcading. I reject it as well.

The *upper right* sketch has all of the panels of the end-wall tapering. This is more work than using straight sided panels, but it is both structurally sound and aesthetically pleasing. It pains me some to abandon the known tailoring of the Graz tent, but that tent never had decorative arcading. This is the scheme that I currently plan to do on the full scale tent.

Mac

I notice that a fair number of tents have decorative arcading only on the long walls, perhaps because they used the Graz solution on the end wall and didn't like how it interacted with arcading.

[Mac]

I notice that a fair number of tents have decorative arcading only on the long walls, perhaps because they used the Graz solution on the end wall and didn't like how it interacted with arcading.

That may well be the case.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

Mac, the upper left has the advantage of zero fabric waste. All strips end at either 90 deg or 45 degrees. Wherever 1 panel ends the next can begin upside down. In the upper right you can interlock the 2 nearest the center-line and then pair up each one as it gets farther from the midline but at the ends the angle does not match the next pair. (Ok, they do match the same pair on the opposite end but that's a loosing proposition overall). Net result is 'cabbage' or scraps of fabric that the tent maker can keep but aren't really useful for anything. I recognize that these are extravagant traveling palaces but in the economics of getting the most palace from the least fabric the upper left makes the most design sense... it also has the least linear distance to sew.

Sean

[Mac]

Mac, the upper left has the advantage of zero fabric waste. All strips end at either 90 deg or 45 degrees. Wherever 1 panel ends the next can begin upside down. In the upper right you can interlock the 2 nearest the center-line and then pair up each one as it gets farther from the midline but at the ends the angle does not match the next pair. (Ok, they do match the same pair on the opposite end but that's a loosing proposition overall). Net result is 'cabbage' or scraps of fabric that the tent maker can keep but aren't really useful for anything. I recognize that these are extravagant traveling palaces but in the economics of getting the most palace from the least fabric the upper left makes the most design sense... it also has the least linear distance to sew.

Sean

This is a page from my notebook concerning some possible treatments of the seams of the gable and end-wall.




The upper left is a possibility. It makes extremely good use of the fabric, and can be supported by pictorial evidence.

I mentioned the advantages of the upper left design in my post, but it kind of gets lost in the pics. The fabric economy is enticing, but I am drawn to the radiating gore thing. All in all, I am going to guess that it will cost me an additional 20 or 30 bucks in fabric. I'll do the math for real tomorrow and report.

Mac

[Mac]

Sean,

I made out cutting diagrams for the two different options.

The one in the upper left will use up 8 2/3 yards of (58" wide) fabric for the two ends (gable and end-wall) and leaves essentially no scrap.

The one with the radiating gores uses 12 yards of (58" wide) fabric, but there is enough left at the end for two additional side wall panels. If we take that left over to not be waste, we get a total of 10 1/3 yards.

The difference between the two cuttings is about 1 2/3 of "cabbage". Canvas is going to cost about $6.75/yard if I buy a 100yd. bolt form Itex in Colorado. By the time it is shipped, it will be costing me about $7.75/ yd. Thus, the cost difference will be about $13 in fabric.

Mac

[Charlotte J]

Keep in mind that once all of those radial seams come together, you will have a LOT of seam allowances all in one place. Or is that "cap" on there a small triangle of fabric to which it all attaches, cutting off the tip of the pie pieces?

[Mac]

That's exactly right, Charlotte. The gores all join that triangular piece at the top so as to minimize the bulk. You see this on round tents as well, but there the main canopy gores join a cone made up of a smaller number of gores.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

Sean,

Thus, the cost difference will be about $13 in fabric.

Mac

Modern economics with machine made fabric we can waste a lot without worry. Any idea what 3 1/3 yards of 30" (a more common width then approaching 60") of canvas would cost in Groats or medieval currency.

One thing Liz always drills into me is the culture of conspicuous consumption and how the display of fabric was the display of wealth. That also drives very efficient uses of fabric like the tiny triangles on the Charles de Boise coat. If you were considering buying tents from 2 different tailors and one had a pattern that generated less waste then you could logically buy MORE tent for the same price. More tent on display is the display of more wealth.

I don't know that the difference is much in medieval hard currency but if I were to buy an expensive car to 'show off' I would find the auto dealership where my dollars went the farthest. When mechanical or structural need exists then cost is secondary but if both designs are structurally equivalent then designs facor the economic solution second.

Sean

[Chris Gilman]

Mac, I meant to ask when we talked today, are you planning on painting this tent?
Do we have evidence that they were painted? Or other?

[Mac]

Would one or two ropes or light chains running taught from the bottom of one long side stiffener to the other solve the deflection problem? Also, they would be handy for tent dividers and hanging things.

I missed this one yesterday, G.

I think that one or two light timbers set across the tent near the tops of the long side stiffeners will do the trick nicely. They will also provide a much needed place to dry towels.

Here is an image I found yesterday in which I believe I see just such a brace being used to support a curtain which presumable divides off a storage space.




Mac

[Mac]

Mac, I meant to ask when we talked today, are you planning on painting this tent?
Do we have evidence that they were painted? Or other?

Chris,
I plan to paint some arcading. If it works well in my tests, I expect to go a bit wild with it.

I think that painting is a legitimate choice. Perhaps "G'' has some documentary info that sheds some light on this.

Mac

[Mac]

I have added a few more images of rectangular tents to this album.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1074249789 ... directlink


Mac[/quote]

[Aussie Yeoman]

Thanks for the pics Mac. I didn't mean to pester or nag...I was just curious.

I was surprised to see how many rectangular tents there are. Even in images I had seen before, my eye had been drawn to the round pavillions before.

Dave

[Galleron]

Mac, I meant to ask when we talked today, are you planning on painting this tent?
Do we have evidence that they were painted? Or other?

Chris,
I plan to paint some arcading. If it works well in my tests, I expect to go a bit wild with it.

I think that painting is a legitimate choice. Perhaps "G'' has some documentary info that sheds some light on this.

Mac

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... -high.html

[Mac]

Thank you, G. I thought I remembered that you had something of the sort on you blog.

Item, the xxij day of Julij, to Johne Kilgour, chapellane, for paynting of the Kingis pailʒoun, and the armys thairto . . . . . . . iij li

Mac

[Mac]

Thanks for the pics Mac. I didn't mean to pester or nag...I was just curious.

No problem, Dave. I should have linked to those pics earlier.

I was surprised to see how many rectangular tents there are. Even in images I had seen before, my eye had been drawn to the round pavillions before.

Dave

They are pretty common. Once you start "seeing" them, you see them everywhere.

Mac