[Question][14th Century] Torce and mantle construction

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

[Question][14th Century]
What material would a late 14th Century torce and mantle have been made from?
wool? linen? silk?

[Konstantin the Red]

Probably not woolen cloth, probably silk, it being showy and aristocratic. Linen, I couldn't make the call.

[Lucian Ro]

Good question, Malcom. I keep intending to make one of these myself but somehow the project always ends up on the backburner.

[Konstantin the Red]

So, Malcolm, what are you envisioning for your torse and mantle project? Is it going on a great- or a barrel-helm? Colors? Outer w/lining, like in an achievement of arms? Do dish!

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I made my torse using linen and a tutorial posted by InsaneIrish.

I have not attempted a mantle yet but I would be VERY interested in hearing what you come up with for attaching it and what flat shape it should be. I am baffled by fabric most times.

[InsaneIrish]

Here are the pics that went along with that tutorial:

[Konstantin the Red]

I have not attempted a mantle yet but I would be VERY interested in hearing what you come up with for attaching it and what flat shape it should be. I am baffled by fabric most times.

Whip-stitch it to the inside of the torse, Sigismund.

Shape it like a section of a cone; that flaring gives it lots of ease to drape nicely. It will be a bent oblong like the the flat pattern for the occiputal plate of your helm: two straight sides, which will be the left and right edges, and two curved ones, which are the top edge sewn to the inside of the torse, and the bottom edge. Decorative cuts just modify these basic edges.

Fabric's just another material. You don't need to be female to work it, though female hands are damn good at embroidery (and calligraphy). (Start with a T tunic, then baby-steps up from that.) It does much help the newb to start with a good, well designed pattern in the first place -- Period Patterns century-series (No. 101...) was infamous for not being that, not so very much.

[helene]

Thanks for the threads on torse and mantles! Here's my first try:


Mantle and torse by helene83, on Flickr

And the blog post is at http://helenestuff.blogspot.com/2013/11 ... torse.html

- Helene

[Ernst]

Can you provide a 14th century image of the torse? I've seen mantles, but am fairly sure the combination post-dates the 14th century.

[Slank]

A couple of torse sans mantle

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4500/13139/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4500/13116/

[helene]

Can you provide a 14th century image of the torse? I've seen mantles, but am fairly sure the combination post-dates the 14th century.

Sir Reginald de Cobham - 1342
http://www.starboroughcastle.com/brass- ... -de-cobham

He is resting his head on a helmet that has a crest, torse, and mantle.

His son's heraldry is blazoned as "Sir Reginald Cobham, Lord Cobham, K.G., 1352-1361. Arms: gules, on a chevron or, three estoiles sable. Crest: a soldan's head sable, the brow encircled by a torse or. Mantling sable (evidently a continuation of the crest), lined gules"
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41 ... tm#page402

- Helene

[Ernst]

A couple of torse sans mantle

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4500/13139/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4500/13116/

Actually these are mantles sans torse.

Sir Reginald de Cobham - 1342
http://www.starboroughcastle.com/brass- ... -de-cobham

He is resting his head on a helmet that has a crest, torse, and mantle.

Almost certainly this effigy does not date to c.1342. The plate faulds and other features most likely point to an early 15th century dating. Here listed as 1403, and the helm portion showing the torse seems to be reconstructed.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/764/2571/

[Galfrid atte grene]

Indeed. You can see that part is omitted on both the 1847 and 1864 drawings. Church Brasses, British & Continental by Allan Bouquet confirms restoration of the damaged components.

I suspect you'll find neither torses nor mantles on bascinets in the 14th century.

[Rodney]

Indeed. You can see that part is omitted on both the 1847 and 1864 drawings. Church Brasses, British & Continental by Allan Bouquet confirms restoration of the damaged components.

I suspect you'll find neither torses nor mantles on bascinets in the 14th century.

I've been tilting this windmill for quite some time. The best one I've come across is Sir John Mainwaring (1330 - 1410). Unfortunately, he died in the 15th century and the date of his effigy is uncertain.

[Ernst]

The decorative ring on the bascinet is usually referred to as an orle. I've never seen one with a cloth mantle behind. The torse and mantle combination always seems to be tied to the use of a crest.

[Konstantin the Red]

Comes of their different functions: the display-maybe-sunshade of torse and mantle, or the adapt-bascinet-to-greathelm function of the doughnut-shaped orle, which about instantly got decorated. I don't know of any provably plain orles on bascinets.

[helene]

Sir Reginald de Cobham - 1342
http://www.starboroughcastle.com/brass- ... -de-cobham

He is resting his head on a helmet that has a crest, torse, and mantle.

Almost certainly this effigy does not date to c.1342. The plate faulds and other features most likely point to an early 15th century dating. Here listed as 1403, and the helm portion showing the torse seems to be reconstructed.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/764/2571/[/quote]

Indeed. You can see that part is omitted on both the 1847 and 1864 drawings. Church Brasses, British & Continental by Allan Bouquet confirms restoration of the damaged components.

My bad, sorry. Thanks for the info!

Do y'all know of any extant orles, other than the late period ones from Sweden? Were they metalwork or textile? The effigies have some beautiful detail, but I'm not sure if that's fancy metal base or fancy embroidery base.

Thanks!
- Helene

[Kel Rekuta]

There are a number of early 15thC English effigies with elaborate orles. Could be fabric, could be leather - fabric combinations. When Toby Capwell's first book on English armour comes out it should have several examples. (His thesis did.)

[Konstantin the Red]

Heavens, who's thinking an orle should be of metal? They're supposed to squish and help hold the helm steady.

[scott2978]

I made mine from linen.

[Mac]

There are a number of early 15thC English effigies with elaborate orles. Could be fabric, could be leather - fabric combinations. When Toby Capwell's first book on English armour comes out it should have several examples. (His thesis did.)

Kel,

Toby C and I were discussing that very thing about two weeks ago. There will indeed be pics of them in his book, but no conclusions about the construction. He is inclined to think of them as being primarily fabric with applied decoration, but does not have the documentary evidence to be certain.

Mac

[Mac]

Heavens, who's thinking an orle should be of metal? They're supposed to squish and help hold the helm steady.

Konstantin,

I think it is safe to say that by the time we see the fancy orles of the 15th C, they are no longer functioning as padding or spacing for a helm, if indeed that was their original function. I offer two lines of reasoning to support for this conclusion.

The first is that they are far too ornate for that purpose. They appear to be covered with pearls and gems. They are clearly intended to be seen and admired, and not stuffed into a helm. If the helm were lined, the decoration of the orle would catch on the lining. If it were not lined, the decoration would be sullied, scuffed, and damaged by contact with the rough and rusty interior of the helm.

Further, the presence or absence of the orle on English effigies if very directly tied to the quality or the effigy in general, and thus is an indicator of the Knight's wealth. The guys with more money to spend on effigies are more likely to be depicted with orles; and the nicer the effigy, the fancier the orle. (This will be mentioned in TC's book, which should be out next year)

The second, and more compelling reason is this. The bascinets on which they are seen are way too tall to fit into a helm. It is a physical impossibility that a helm can be worn over one of these bascinets in a way that would allow the wearer to see out the sights. I

Mac

[helene]

The first is that they are far too ornate for that purpose. They appear to be covered with pearls and gems. They are clearly intended to be seen and admired, and not stuffed into a helm. If the helm were lined, the decoration of the orle would catch on the lining. If it were not lined, the decoration would be sullied, scuffed, and damaged by contact with the rough and rusty interior of the helm.

There are a number of early 15thC English effigies with elaborate orles. Could be fabric, could be leather - fabric combinations. When Toby Capwell's first book on English armour comes out it should have several examples. (His thesis did.)

Kel,
Toby C and I were discussing that very thing about two weeks ago. There will indeed be pics of them in his book, but no conclusions about the construction. He is inclined to think of them as being primarily fabric with applied decoration, but does not have the documentary evidence to be certain.

Very cool- another excuse for crazy embroidery fun. I think I'd like to do a bit more reading and put together a nice gold work embroidery piece with lots of bling. Any chance you've got a link to that dissertation?

- Helene

[scott2978]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I thought it might be a good idea to add this image to the discussion for posterity.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oxfordshir ... 007184755/

It shows a bascinet with either a torse or orle. Dated to 1403, Wendesley Thomas, Derbyshire England.

[Konstantin the Red]

Cool that it's a new angle -- though I think that orle and bascinet have been linked to in another thread. That bascinet's edge decoration with the collar of SS together look familiar from somewhere.

Effigies & Brasses fills in on Sir Thomas Wendesley obit 1403 and where to find him. They have a simply dreadful pic of the effigy as it was in the middle nineteenth. Can't even find the collar on it.

Nertz; Search onsite was fruitless. Only here is his name mentioned.

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

I figured I would come and post pictures of the finished product.
The Helm was made by Master Eldrid Tremayne
the torce and mantle were made by Mistress Clare de Crecy
and the crest was made by Sir Angus from here on the AA

[Henrik Granlid]

Swedish Mantle from 1406, depicted as very long and flowy compared to what I have seen in other effigies
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2351/3389/

Also note the interesting helmet with air/sighthole above the right eye whilst also devoid of ventilation on the left.

[Ernst]

An early 15th century (c.1410-1420) twisted torse on a bascinet from a Dutch Book of Hours, BL Add. MS 50005, fo 90v. There's also a plume in the top orb, and an escutcheon on the front of the aventail.

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 0005_f090v

BL Additional 50005 fo090v-dtl.jpg (44.75 KiB) Viewed 1382 times