Plaque Belts - how do they work?

[Grischa]

Hello,
I am currently planning on making a plaque belt with pewter cast plaques.
Something along the basic principle of this effigy:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/705/956/

There are a lot of similar effigies. I want to achieve the following features.
-horizontal plaque belt (with dagger)
-separate angled sword belt
I will do Pewter casting, because I have some experience with this.

My problems are:
- I don't have (and wont reach) such a waist
- not enough time and focus
- I want to be able to fight (in LARP "fights") with this, so it should not encumber me to much.

My questions are / What do you think:
- how would the scabbard of the dagger be fixed to the plaque belt?
I attached a CAD drawing of a possible setup, on the left is a ring for the mounting of a dagger scabbard.
But i am not sure about this solution.

- how is the sword belt fixed to the hip?
I think I could make some kind of "arming point" on the highest point of the belt.

So, what do you think?
And: is anyone interested to get pictures of my progress (and setbacks)?

[Karen Larsdatter]

I think (but do not know for sure) that this sort of belt would have involved individual plaques set on a belt -- probably a silk woven belt, possibly a leather belt -- rather than plaques attached/hinged together directly. There used to be a similar-ish set of plaques at http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=4235 but I am unable to check that site from work.

http://larsdatter.com/plaque-belts.htm has more examples, in any case.

[Grischa]

Thank you for your input!
I should have been more precise. I plan a leather belt with pewter plaques.
The hinge shown in the middle is the opening of the belt.

I get an error 404 on the first link.
But the link list is great! At first glance, i saw more details of the construction of existing plaques than ever!
I will have to study them later with more time.

[Jehan de Pelham]

My thoughts: Make it long enough to fit OVER your armor just above the point of your hips. Design the plaques in such a way that they are hollow, but sturdy. You might consider casting the detail bits going in the centers of the plaques separately and then assembling them (riveting them) then attaching the assembled plaques to your belt. Design the belt in such a way that you have the option to tie it or otherwise attach it to your garment so as to secure it.

Regardless of your efforts to make it light it will be heavy. Deal with it. It's additional hip armor.

As for the sword belt, you could tie the scabbard to your overgarment, or through your overgarment to your haubergeon underneath so as to secure it from movement. I think wearing a scabbard in combat is kinda one of those things that didn't happen. Too encumbering.

I would want to attach a dagger scabbard in such a way that I could have the loops behind the plaques. I would recommend a set of loops on the inside of the belt through which a strap for the scabbard could be put, so that the look of the plaques would be totally uninterrupted.

[Belemrys]

Check out Lorifactor...they have some creative solutions on how it should be done (not sure about the dagger scabbard)

http://www.lorifactor.com/k11,knightly-girdles.html

[Harry Marinakis]

Okay, I'm gonna ask a dumb question.

Is a plaque belt something of fashion, or something worn only by knights?

[Harry Marinakis]

No one?

[Galfrid atte grene]

It is a fashion item.

[Jehan de Pelham]

My theories: Plaque belts are a signal to men at arms not to kill you. They are also a down payment on a ransom.

[Dan Howard]

They are a fashion item that started being worn in the Bronze Age. They never went out of fashion as far as I can tell.

[Jehan de Pelham]

They're still in fashion. I wear mine to social functions all the time.

[Grischa]

Thanks for the Answers!

Design the plaques in such a way that they are hollow, but sturdy

Good Idea, I just started with the masters and i will make them as hollow as possible.
But yes, the belt will be heavy

You might consider casting the detail bits going in the centers of the plaques separately and then assembling them (riveting them) then attaching the assembled plaques to your belt.

Thats a good one also. I will leave the detail part in the masters only loosely glued. Then i have a fall back plan, if the casting fails.
That way i could also make "blank" plates later and decorate them with etched brass Inlays: noted.

The best one is the "loops behind the plates" idea. It is a simple solution i absolutely didn't think of!
I agree on all your points Jehan de Pelham.

edit: I found this Detail in the links of Karen Larsdatter:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2802434757/
There really is some sort of ring!
Well, maybe i will do the internal loops, because i could change the Belt setup and try wearing the sword on the plaqu belt..

Check out Lorifactor...

I already knew the site, but it reminded me to make short belt for the soft kit and a filler piece for the Armour like they do on their site.

Is a plaque belt something of fashion, or something worn only by knights?

Good question, because I had no answer ready.
I think they developed from the sword belt which was decorated, but functional in the earlier Centuries to something overdecorated and maybe even encumbering. Just like having 30+ Buttons on your garment they are more about showing richness and power than about function.
But maybe Jehan de Pelham is right, and my life will be spared by my foes for the ransom.
In this case, the plaque belt would be a fully functional and vital part of the Armour!

Thank you all for your contributions. I hope I can put up some new stuff soon!

[Ian L]

There are extant examples of scabbard throat lockets that have a staple on the back side. This would allow someone to pass a simple strap through the staple and around a plaque belt to secure it in place, also making it easily removable when it came time to actually fight. I'm stuck at work right now and don't have access to the photos of the throat locket finds unfortunately.

The overwhelming majority of surviving effigies do not depict a separate sword belt during the heyday of the chunky style plaque belt (I realize the effigy you linked does). The staple method is just one hypothesis on how to attach a sword to it. You'll notice most effigies depict the sword hanging straight down from the plaque belt itself, almost magically suspended. The staple technique would match the visual. There is also artistic evidence that the back of some scabbards had a buckle directly affixed to the throat locket, allowing a similar approach of affixing the sword to the scabbard as would be achieved by the staple. So you have options if you want to go with a separate sword belt or just the plaque belt and suspension.

As far as why they were worn, I'm inclined to agree that fashion coupled with 'look at me I'm rich, and should be ransomed instead of killed' were probably at the forefront of reasons to don a plaque belt. In battle it would have a similar effect as would the gilding of hourglass gauntlets and other fine decoration on armor. "I'm worth money!"

I own one of the lorifactor girdles, and it's plaques affixed to a leather belt. The leather belt has an inner belt, with an outer layer of leather sewn over it, and then the plaques affixed. Mine secures using a pin/hinge like the visor on a bascinet. This also allows me to remove a 2 plaque section of the belt to make it smaller or larger for use in and out of harness.

**EDIT**

Found one:

http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/201477

[Konstantin the Red]

Any sure idea if the scale marking is inches or centimeters? I'm guessing cm.

[Ian L]

Any sure idea if the scale marking is inches or centimeters? I'm guessing cm.

Yes, it's metric.

Dimensions and weight

Length: 45.77 mm
Width: 57.16 mm
Thickness: 3.4 mm
Weight: 27.15 g
Quantity: 1

[Karen Larsdatter]

I get an error 404 on the first link.

AHA! I think I've figured out a better link to it - http://database.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=4235

[Jehan de Pelham]

"In this case, the plaque belt would be a fully functional and vital part of the Armour!"

I think this too was the case. If you take a look at what a plaque belt is--a thick metal belt--and where it is--on the hips which must remain somewhat unarmored owing to mobility requirements in late 14th century armors--it is easy to see how it serves a dual purpose of armor and signal to capture rather than kill the wearer.

[Dan Howard]

In the Iliad Homer specifically describes these belts stopping an arrow and a thrown spear. [4.185-7, 12.401]

[Ian L]

Came across this effigy this evening and thought of this thread.

Here you can see a small thong attaching the dagger scabbard to the plaque belt. It's simply looped around the plaque belt.

1391 England:

[Mac]

Came across this effigy this evening and thought of this thread.

Here you can see a small thong attaching the dagger scabbard to the plaque belt. It's simply looped around the plaque belt.

1391 England:

This is by far the most common thing that I have seen on the early 15th C English effigies. Sometimes instead of a thong, it is suspended from a loop of fine square-linked chain.

I think we could do a lot worse than to just assume that this is the normal way of attaching daggers.

Mac

[Harry Marinakis]

Off topic - have you seen how 13th C daggers are suspended?

[Mac]

Harry,

I have not paid much attention to 13th C stuff. What are you seeing on the effigies?

Mac

[Tailoress]

There's a find from London (found in the MoL Dress Accessories book, I believe) which shows a belt buckle with a little squared-off hook at the bottom of it. This would jive with images of men wearing belts with a bollock dagger hanging down in the dead center.

[Cian of Storvik]

I often find it weird that whenever I contemplate what I would do if I had a time machine, the first thing that jumps to mind is going back to the middle ages and discovering by asking/peeping "How did they wear/fabricate/use X item."
Not..."kill hitler as a kid", "get Jesus's autograph" or "put money into IBM stocks", or anything like that, it's always some inane "I wonder how gruel and pudding tasted 500 years ago".

Near the top of my list is; how heavy were plaque belts, and how did they not slide off of the hips, and how did swords and daggers magnetically/magically attach to them.
-Cian

[Grischa]

thanks a lot for that sling find Ian L! That is an easy solution
I think i will have some hidden loops on the inside as a fall back plan but try the visible sling.