Comfortable and Flexible, suspending your legs

[Mac]

I've just seen a pic of another page from this manuscript, which I am (unfortunately) not at liberty to share. In that image, it is clear that the thing this man is wearing is (at least sometimes) a crossbow spanning belt.



Mac

[Klaus the Red]

That makes sense. The double-belt split in back is clearly to spread tension of some kind.

[Andeerz]

Hello!

So, I am constructing a lendenier myself in a manner similar to the fabric one Ian made.

However, the experience has led me to some questions. I want to know the likely reasons it is constructed one way or another, in particular the way it is said in the Limburger Chronicle as interpreted by Bertus Brokamp .

Why have it laced? I think lacing makes sense to me from a comfort and functional perspective: it is more finely adjustable and, perhaps more importantly, less bulky than buckles and straps. What else might I be missing here?

Why have it padded? And padded "hard" and a "finger thick" at that? I am assuming (which I don't like) that this garment is padded with something like carded cotton. This might sound stupid, but what is the purpose of padding it like this? Is it a comfort thing? Is it for protection even though it is likely still under maille and/or plate fauld? What does padding with a relatively loose material confer to this garment that multiple layers of fabric wouldn't?

What do you all think?

[Tom B.]

I've just seen a pic of another page from this manuscript, which I am (unfortunately) not at liberty to share. In that image, it is clear that the thing this man is wearing is (at least sometimes) a crossbow spanning belt.



Mac

The manuscript is available online here: Manuscript - Ott.lat.1417
Here is a cropped bit from 24r, which maybe the image you were referring to.

[Mac]

The manuscript is available online here: Manuscript - Ott.lat.1417
Here is a cropped bit from 24r, which maybe the image you were referring to.

Yes. That's the image I had in mind. At the time of my post, it was not available online, and was not permitted to post the thing I had been allowed to see.


Mac

[Tom B.]

Yes. That's the image I had in mind. At the time of my post, it was not available online, and was not permitted to post the thing I had been allowed to see.
Mac

I had assumed that the manuscript had become available online during the subsequent 3 years.
Rereading your post yesterday I immediately knew the image you were referring to was now available so I posted it.
It has some other nice images and is worth looking through in its entirety.

[Sean M]

I used to be skeptical because I had not seen anything like this in any 14th / 15th century arming scene. Bertus found a bilingual document from Bruges from 1370 which has Donaes, de pourpointstickere, sal mi maken een wambies ende een lendenier = Donas, le pourpointier, me fera un pourpoint et unes estraintes = "Donas, the pourpoint-maker, shall make me a pourpoint and an estraintes / Lendenier."

The challenge of Robert de Beaumanoir to Pierre Touremine in Brittany in 1386 says that over the shirt, breeches, and breech-belt and under the cotte à armer Beaumanoir shall wear (column 672 near the bottom):

une estrainte de toile garnie comme il appartient de fil de ceut, de boucles, & hardillons [672.lx] de fer, d'acier, & de letton, ou de l'un d'eux, ou de ce que bon m'en semblera, garnie d'aiguillettes de'cuir, ou tresses de chanvre, tant & tel nombre comme m'en souffira & sera necessaire & profitable pour leer & attacher les pieces & estoffes de mon [672.lxv] harnois, garnies de fer ou de leton ou de tous deux ensemble,;

"a compresser (estrainte) of linen garnished with the things that belong to it of ceut thread, with buckles and tongues of iron, of steel, and of brass, or of one of them, or with that which sees good to me, garnished with aiguillettes of leather, or braids of hemp, such as and in such number as suffices to me and may be necessary and profitable for fastening and attaching the pieces and stuffs of my harness, garnished with iron or with brass or with both of them together."

Ian Laspina put up one page with a summary of the other evidence in 2016.

[Ian L]

That's certainly unambiguous about the 'estrainte's purpose. I also find it interesting that as late as 1386 the preceding text describes the use of a breech-belt. I've always defaulted to one, but I silently thought of it as a concession, because trying to use a doublet to hold up one's hose always seemed awkwardly incompatible with a lendenier.

[Sean M]

That's certainly unambiguous about the 'estrainte's purpose. I also find it interesting that as late as 1386 the preceding text describes the use of a breech-belt. ...

That is a good point. I would expect tresse not brayer for the narrow braids which fasten later breeches. But this is a very long detailed repetitive text- Robert de Beaumanoir had issues.

Here are the lines before the one about the estrainte. Arabic numerals are columns, Roman numerals are lines.

Premierement je choaisis & estis estre vestu de
chemise [672.lv] & de brayes, de l'une & de chacune, ou de
l'un d'eux, & à avoir ez brayes brayer de toile o
avanczon garni de boucles & hardillons ad ce
necessaires, & une estrainte de toile ...

The DMF does not know any other uses of the word avançon.

I've always defaulted to one, but I silently thought of it as a concession, because trying to use a doublet to hold up one's hose always seemed awkwardly incompatible with a lendenier.

Could you or anyone else who wears a lendenier with a post-1360 harness show how you suspend everything? I photographed the inside of my doublet on an earlier thread (H are for hose, C are cuisses).



I remember there was some back-and-forth on the St. Florian thread pages 24 and following, but he is from the 1480s when hose are almost tall enough to support themselves.

Bertus, I would be thankful if you gave me the citation for the passage about Lendenier from the Limburger Chronik and the Dutch-French dialogue from 1370. I am working on a writing project and I need to be able to cite these sources.

Edit: I found the passage in the Limburger Chronik (but not the dialogue from 1370):

In der selben zit da gingen an die Westfeilschen lendenire. Di waren
also, daz ritter, knechte unde reisige lude furten lendenire, unde gingen an der brost
ane, hinden uf den rucke hart zugespannet unde wanten also verre als dy schufe
in lang was, unde was hart gesteppet, binach eines fingers dicke. Und qwam daz
uß Westfalenlande.

Here is my translation of that passage:

"At the same time the Westfalian Lendeniers 'came in' there. This meant that knights, squires (knechte) and people who raid on horseback (reisige lude) wore Lendenier, which were worn on the breast, spanned hard behind on the back, and they went as far (verre) as the jupe (schufe) was long, and were quilted hard, almost a finger thick. And this came from Westphalia."

So I just need the citation for the French-German dialogue.

[Ian L]

Could you or anyone else who wears a lendenier with a post-1360 harness show how you suspend everything? I photographed the inside of my doublet on an earlier thread (H are for hose, C are cuisses).

Here are my foundation layers, generally in the order described in your source I believe.

The hose are pointed to a narrow breech-girdle, the lendenier sits over top that and the cuisses would be pointed to it, then the doublet goes on over everything, but I still have access to the cuisse points by lifting the peplum of the doublet.

[Sean M]

Isis Sturtewagen found this painting by the Master of the Legend of St. Lucia in the Groeninge Museum, Bruges, where the labourer drinking from a pewter jug suspends his hose with a leather belt. Web Gallery of Art dates it 1486-1493. The bishop in the centre is St. Nicholas so sometimes Christmas comes early

[Mac]

I can't remember whether I've posted these pics already or not, but I think they are relevant. They are from my pinterest board of hosen held up by belts.

this acrobat holds up his hosen with a thing that is sort of a belt, and sort of the skirts of a doublet. They seem to be loosely connected so as to allow him extreme motion.



This scourge wielding villain holds his hosen up with something similar, but there is clearly no doublet bodice involved.



Mac