Comfortable and Flexible, suspending your legs

[Rodney]

This second prototype looks even more intriguing than the first!

Does the top edge align with your natural waistline? How do you think this would translate to those of us with an "abundant" waistline?

YIB - Rodney

[Ian L]

This second prototype looks even more intriguing than the first!

Does the top edge align with your natural waistline? How do you think this would translate to those of us with an "abundant" waistline?

YIB - Rodney

I tend to wear this one closer to the 'jeans' waistline. It would be unnecessary to place it as high up as the natural waistline. It would also sit right under my breastplate strap if it were in that spot as well. I believe this method could be successful for anyone who can wear belted jeans in their normal life, with varying degrees of comfort based on the *abundance* present

[Ian L]

I cut off the leather arming tabs and re-stitched them to the inside of the girdle. It's a more appropriate medieval leatherworking aesthetic and looks a lot cleaner.

[Ernst]

Since Gerhard von Liebau brought up Heinrich von dem Türlin's Diu Crône from 1220-1230 in another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178711

We have Sir Kay girding his lendener, along with a buckram gambeson adding to Bertus' two previous 13th century sources.

Her Keiî ez niht langer spart,
Er gurte den lendeniere.

Dar nâch wart er vil schiere
In sîn îsergolzen geschuocht;
Ein wambeis wart ime gesuocht
Von einem buckeram blanc,
Einer spannen von der gürtel lanc,

Perhaps Bertus can chime in on the etymology. Many sources presume this is a loan word from French, but is that so?
Google translate gives the German and Dutch word for loins (that area of the side between hip and ribs) as lende with niere being translated alternately as kidneys or reins. Although we only use reins for horses in English, or the idiom "to rein in", the source returns to Latin retinere through Old French rene meaning to retain or keep.

So we likely have a compound word lende-niere, meaning to "keep the loins" or "loin-kidney" (belt)?

[Ian L]

I've seen a lot of people trying to reproduce this idea over the past few months and I realized I didn't make clear one of the most important parts of this design. It's important to note that the shape of this belt is *NOT* just a really wide rectangle. A rectangle will slide down the body over time. It must form a kind of a cone with the top chopped off in order to function properly when worn. The top and bottom edges are curved in a gentle U shape and the top edge is shorter than the bottom. This is the key to preventing the belt from riding down or sliding over the hips once weight as pointed to it, and is what keeps it in place over long periods of time. The shape of the garment/belt will lock itself into the vertical axis and be unable to slide down because the top edge should be less than the circumference of the hips at the widest point. That combined with the friction created by the width and flexibility/stretch of the leather is what makes it work. Reinforcing the top edge prevents it from stretching and loosening on you, but the stretch in the rest of the belt is what aids it in gripping your hips and preventing slippage.

Laid out flat, this what it should look like. (Mine is configured to strap in the back, the little squares are just arming points, the important part is the overall shape):

[Ernst]

Ian,
I think Bertus has given us good information that this was quilted in the same manner as the gambeson. Running the stitching horizontally would tend to allow the lendener to roll, so it seems that vertical stitching lines are in order.

[Amanda M]

I made my prototype out of canvas and linen and it works great. It's even more comfortable than a c belt. When I get my spring steel legs I am going to make another one out of lightweight leather. Awesome solution that I am recommending to other people now when the subject of how to hang your legs comes up.

[bigfredb]

This "cone shaped" belt is a pretty good idea. However it looks like it would work better on someone who has no or minimal Dunlop disease. I don't know how it would work for someone who's an SCA Large . . .

[Paladin74]

I think Ian stated early on that the larger body type, especially with a gut would find this solution less fabulous as the natural curvature would work toward pulling the suspension down.

[Bertus Brokamp]

Perhaps Bertus can chime in on the etymology. Many sources presume this is a loan word from French, but is that so?
Google translate gives the German and Dutch word for loins (that area of the side between hip and ribs) as lende with niere being translated alternately as kidneys or reins. Although we only use reins for horses in English, or the idiom "to rein in", the source returns to Latin retinere through Old French rene meaning to retain or keep.

So we likely have a compound word lende-niere, meaning to "keep the loins" or "loin-kidney" (belt)?

I had not read the suggestion that it might be a loan word from French. As you say, it seems far more logical that it is native Dutch/German because it is something that would cover your loins = lende in Dutch/German. You would think that if it was French, that the French name of the thing would be very similar. But in the Bruges c. 1370 document (which is a bilingual 'language schoolbook' in Dutch & French) it is called a 'estraintes'.

Donaes, de pourpointstickere,
sal mi maken een wambies
ende een lendenier.

vs

Donas, le pourpointier,
me fera un pourpoint
et unes estraintes.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/estreint gives:
estreint
Old French
- constrained (kept within close bounds; confined)

Also I do not believe that the 'nier' in lendenier means kidneys or something else specific. Since in German sources it is also called a Lendener or Lendner etc. I think it just says 'Lende-n(i)er (= Loin-er) or 'Lenden-(i)er' (= 'Loins-er'). But that is my gut feeling.

Coincidentally I had to come up with a quick way to suspend my new maille hosen so I could use them in our new late 13th c. tournament in Denmark, 4 weeks ago. So I grabbed a remnant of an old gambeson (2002?) and whipped up a makeshift loiner. I need to tweak it a bit but it worked pretty good already. I'll use this 'prototype' to make a new one (at some point), with the closure on the back (as per Limburger Chronik). I might change the position of the leather tabs / make eyelets reinforced with leather.




(Forgive me for still using my 15th c. arming hosen here. It was a tight event-deadline and first priority was to get the armour working.)

If anybody is interested: more photos of the tournament:
http://www.stichtinghei.nl/?page_id=3494

[Ernst]

Thanks Bertus.

Out of curiosity, do you lace your lower chausses (below the calf) in the back or on the inside?

[Bertus Brokamp]

They are not laced below the calf yet. Something I would like to remedy to achieve a more snug fit.

[Rod Walker]

I thought I had posted in this thread. I used your idea and made one of these to suspend my 14thC leg harness. I have been using it for this past year and it works great.

[rameymj]

That looks really nice.

I went to two belts, one per leg harness. The legs seemed to say in place much better.

[Ian L]

Bertus, seeing yours and reading your references I really like the quilted/padded version of the lendenier as opposed to the leather route that I went (inspired by the King's Mirror). I would like to experiment with that as well and do a comparison. Do you think leather a realistic alternative or do you think these would be exclusively done in the same style as a pourpoint?

[Bertus Brokamp]

In 1401 in the German town of Göttingen the shoemakers, beltmakers and mercers had a dispute settled by the town council, about which trade could make or sell what products. The shoemakers and beltmakers wanted the mercers and the pouchmakers not to sell or make any pouches, points (the document says "natelriemen" = 'pointstraps'), lendeners etc. The council ruled: the mercers or pouchmakers shall not tan leather, but from leather they buy in or outside of town they may make pouches and cut points from them and mount them and dye them, when they want to, but they shall not make girdles, breechbelts, lendeners, gloves or purses; but if they bought them here or outside of town they can sell them here.

Although not conclusive I'd say this points in the direction that lendeners were made of leather in Göttingen in 1401. So it would seem both quilted/padded (Limburger Chronik & Bruges) and leather (Göttingen) lendenieren were made. Or perhaps both at the same time? A quilted/padded lendenier which incorporated a layer of leather. This was also done with doublets / jacks etc. in the late middle ages.

[Ernst]

Ian,
What inspiration did you find in the King's Mirror for leather?

[Ian L]

"girded on with a double strap" immediately evoked an image of a double-width leather belt to me. A lot of the earliest references to the lendenier are unclear as to what it was made of. Hearing Bertus' 1401 information above makes me think that these likely were leather at least at some point. I wonder if it was a case of leather transitioning to a quilted textile later, or both existing simultaneously.

For what it's worth I'm about half-way through quilting the textile version of mine because I'm interested to see how the two methods compare in feel and function:

[Ernst]

I suspect adding more vertical stitching will help stiffen it a bit. Basically divide the section one more time.



Larson's translation:

The rider himself should be equipped in this wise: he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which should come up high enough
to be girded on with a double strap; over these he must have good trousers made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already described; finally, over these he should have good knee-pieces made of thick iron and rivets hard as steel.

Old Norse Original

En þenna um búnað þarf maðrinn sjálf að hafa: góðar hosur ok
linar, görvar af blautu lérepti ok vel svörtuðu, ok taki þær alt til
brókabeltis en utan yfir þær góðar brynhosur svá hávar at maðr
megi gyrða þær um sik tviföldum sveip; en utan yfir þat þá þarf
hann at hafa góðar brynbrœkr görvar með lérepti at þeim hætti sem
fyrr hefi ek sagt; en þar um utan þarf hann at hafa góðar knébjargir,
görvar með bykku járni ok með stálhörðum nöddum.

Perhaps a more literal attempt?

But take this grim equipment required of the man to yourself: good hose
and loose, made of soft canvas and well blacked, and take them up to
the braies belt but outside of them good mail chausses so high that a man
may gird them for himself double wrapped; but outside of it then he needs
to have good armored breeches; made with canvas in the manner
which I have said before; but on the outside he needs to have good reinforced knees,
made with proven iron and steel hard nodes.

It's the tviföldum that causes difficulty in translation, like "double" mail. This could mean wrapped twice, or folded over, or layered. I'm not seeing any indication of leather.

[Ian L]

Re-read Bertus's last post. He posted minutes before yours so it may have gotten skipped over, it sheds some light on the idea of the potential historical use of leather.

The reason I went with leather first is because this was an idea I arrived at independently before ever having heard of a lendenier or familiarizing myself with the sources that describe them. It was born of my obsession with good leg suspension and people constantly complaining about the current 'modern solutions.' The only reference to a belt I was aware of at the time was the King's Mirror passage. Due to it's complete lack of a description, especially with regard to material, my mind immediately envisioned such a 'double wrap' as leather. I'm not trying to imply that there was something very specific in the King's Mirror that drove me to that conclusion, merely that in the absence of the information from Bruges, the Limburgh Chronicle and all the other information Bertus has brought to the table, I had decided to go with leather.

Now with the other sources I am experimenting with a quilted textile version. I'm not entirely sure that making it stiffer will serve to make it function better. It's shape will keep it from riding down which is the most important aspect of wear. My leather version is not stiff in any way and functions exactly like I'd want it to. I can always add more quilting later and experiment. I enjoy that part of the process. I do think the aesthetic would be nicer with double the quilting though.

[Ernst]

In 1401 in the German town of Göttingen the shoemakers, beltmakers and mercers had a dispute settled by the town council, about which trade could make or sell what products. The shoemakers and beltmakers wanted the mercers and the pouchmakers not to sell or make any pouches,...

Now that's curious!

[Bertus Brokamp]

Maybe the pouchmakers had reaaaallly pissed off the shoemakers and beltmakers, and so they were calling for their abolition?

[Bertus Brokamp]

Rod, would you change anything in your setup if you would make a new one? If so what and why?

[Ian L]

I've got my textile version of the lendenier wearable at this point. Spiral lacing in the back (which fascinates my daughter as you can see in the photo). I have yet to decide how I want to configure the arming points, any suggestions? I can do 16 more hand-sewn eyelets (4x4) or attach leather arming point tabs. So far in direct comparison to the leather version I made the textile version is a bit more comfortable, but only a full day in harness will really tell. It's easily put on by one's self, simply by lacing it at your side higher up on the midsection, then rotating it into place after lacing and pulling it down over the hips. It fits snugly and tightly through the 'loin' and cannot slide down because of the overall shaping. Still considering doubling the quilting lines as suggested by Ernst.

[Bertus Brokamp]

Looking good

[Ian L]

What are the thoughts on the specific construction of the arming point attachments? This seems to be something completely in the realm of speculation. Leather patches affixed to the garment (like on your example above Bertus)? Eyelets sewn through the garment? Leather reinforced eyelets?

[Bertus Brokamp]

Until we find a clear depiction of a lendenier, we can only speculate and look at what we know from suspending leg harness from doublets (and what do we actually know of this?).


Another perhaps useful tidbit on the subject of lendenieren in general is this extract from a household accountbook of the Duke of Guelders from 1469:

Ghegheven om 3 vierdel linnensdoechs dar myn gen. Here syn leyndenierke mede ghevoedert waert ende tot tibdoeck onder syn hosen, 9 oirt.
Van een leyndenierke te maken, 2 vl.

'Given (paid) for 3 quarters (of an ell) of linen cloth, with which my merciful Lord's small lendenier was lined and for tibcloth under his hosen, 9 oirtgen (type of coin).'
'To have a small lendenier made, 2 vl. (I guess Vlaamse groten = Flemish groats)'

I have no idea what tibcloth is. The Middle Dutch Dictionary also only cites this record and does not know what it means.


I do not think that the existence of the lendenier rules out the suspension of leg harness from close fitting doublets from the 14th c. onwards. Perhaps both systems co-existed.

[Bertus Brokamp]

The latin dictionary 'Vocabularius copiosus' published in 1477-1483 (but its origin is supposedly late 14th c.) has an entry called Balteus, lindenier
https://books.google.be/books?id=XR1NAA ... &q&f=false
Which says:

Cingulum militare quo cingutur milites sic dictu quasi pendens secundum hugucione qi ex eo signa dependent ad demostrandu legionis militaris summa et etia illud quo arma dependent et qncq pro cingulo mulieris dicitur hic balteus tei. i singulari se in plurali bii balteiorum. et bec balteaorum. dr corrigia ad balista pertinens (very rough transcription by me, not my forte)
'A military girdle which girds knights / soldiers ....'
I think of importance here is one of the meanings described as 'quo arma dependent' so 'of which armour hangs'.


Identically in the Low-German&Dutch to/from Latin dictionary 'Teuthonista' of 1477 the Balteus is described as:

Eyn ritterlick gordel of ryem dayr dat harnesch an hengt
'A knighty girdle or belt where the harness hangs from'

[Sean M]

With both this and a post-1360 doublet, I wonder what will happen once the waist is compressed by the body armour.

I do not think that the existence of the lendenier rules out the suspension of leg harness from close fitting doublets from the 14th c. onwards. Perhaps both systems co-existed.

Especially because so far the lendenier is only attested in the Germanies and Norway.

Everything I know about the suspension of cuisses is in my Arming Garments III thread.

[Bertus Brokamp]

Yep, so far only in the Germanic countries.
Though, perhaps when using the Bruges estreintes / estraintes lead, we would find them also in France?


They also had them in Sweden by the way.

A Swedish will from somewhere 1172-1280
... infirmus, animi mei tamen compos, testamentum meum in hunc modum disposuj ordinandum. In primis monachis Noue vallis, apud quos locum eligio sepulture, confero meliorem equm meum bene faleratum et loricam meam cum galea, spaldenaer, plato, lendenaer, stikchata husu ...

A Swedish will from 1311
Hakan Knutsson testamenterar ...
... Item andree birgherson unum palifridum griseum, unum spoldener, et unum platae cum galea. Item kanuto sororio meo unum equm et unum lendener et unam plato cum kaetilhoth. Item nanae, unam plato unum lendener, et unum hersner, quod est in faerghorydh. ...

A Swedish will from 1316
Knut Erikssons enka, Margareta, testamenterar ...
Item famulo meo gyrdhero partes euiusdam armature videlicet vnum spaldinaer, vnam galeam, vnum laendinaer, armlaethir, beenbiaergh, waknhanseae, coleer, et unum equm quem habet.

[Bertus Brokamp]

As to the compression of the waist by body armour. I believe that a properly made doublet (and/or lendenier) does the compression job around the waist, not the armour on top.

[Sean M]

As to the compression of the waist by body armour. I believe that a properly made doublet (and/or lendenier) does the compression job around the waist, not the armour on top.

That could be. Even the best modern-medieval tailors still struggle to create a globulose chest, which should be easier, so we are decades away from compressing the body below.

One group in Suedtirol is experimenting with pillows under their doublets to help the garment stand off their chest. I do not think that was the usual solution, but I suspect that some people on a limited budget tried it in the fourteenth century.

Edit: I have seen MSS where the globulose chest and wasp waist are sharper in armour than out of armour. That suggests to me that the plates/cuirass helped to create the right look.

[Ernst]

The Swedish wills bother me, as the testator leaves a lendener, but no mail chausses or other leg harness: Horses, spaulders, plates, helms and kettle hats, lendeners..... no aketons, nor leg armor?

It makes me wonder if the word might not sometimes be used for any military belt, even one not used for suspension of harness.

Nevertheless, those are great sources, Bertus. Thanks for your continued contributions to the topic. I've looked a bit for estraintes, but have so far only found various non-armor bindings.

[Sean M]

Nevertheless, those are great sources, Bertus. Thanks for your continued contributions to the topic. I've looked a bit for estraintes, but have so far only found various non-armor bindings.

I would expect that there is a word in the Romance languages for a heavy belt for suspending things worn below the waist different from the one in Germanic languages. The closest thing to the MED for Middle French seems to be the Dictionnaire du Moyen Francais and that is down this weekend and does not cite quite as many documents. Does Victor Gay's Glossiare have anything?

[Bertus Brokamp]

The Swedish wills bother me, as the testator leaves a lendener, but no mail chausses or other leg harness: Horses, spaulders, plates, helms and kettle hats, lendeners..... no aketons, nor leg armor?

The first and third wills do seem to have leg armour in them.

- stikchata husu
- beenbiaergh

I checked these two with a Swedish friend of mine, Peter Ahlqvist, and he thinks along the same ways as me:
"My guess is that stikchata husu means gambeson hose. Stickad means embroided or stitched in medieval Swedish and in the context gambeson hose makes sense.
Beenbiaergh is most likely leg plates."